A tale of two calves! Grant Birchall has his knee tidied up .. again .. and again!

Aramis

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Fine. Let's move on

But please don't tell others they need to accept your opinions, and imply that if they don't, it's because they can't handle the truth.

It's not conducive to a good discussion. That's one of the few things that gets me riled on this board, so my apologies again.
Ok cool well heres my opinion and thoughts on Birchall.

1. He has been out for a very long time. He is practically an unknown quantity at this point and past performance is never a reliable indicator for future success. If he comes back, I dont believe he will make a big impact.. see: rule changes, playing style has changed, different team mates.

2. There are young players in the position he would have played now (Scrimshaw, Hardwick, Sicily). They are playing well and I feel we need to get games into them over giving Birchall a game. (see my thoughts on Roughead being dropped, its its good enough for one not to play seniors its good enough for the other). We're tracking for premierships in the next 2-3 years. Its highly unlikely Birchall will be around then.... Those 3 I named, will be.

3. List space and cap space.
a. We could take an extra in the mid-season draft. Yes, they might not set the world alight (would Birchall though?) and at least they could theoretically play and add depth?
b. cap space heading into arguably our most important off-season where getting Coniglio could literally be the difference between us competing and being mid-ladder also rans for the next 5 years.

In summary, I think it's time the club makes the business decision. The known positives of retiring Birchall outweigh the unknown positives of him returning. That is the point i'm trying to make.

Happy to take rebuttals and your perspective.
 
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eldorado

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Now would you like to discuss the pros and cons of Birchall remaining or retiring?
Remaining

Pro: Possibility of a gun returning. For another year?

Likelihood of this happening: Probably slim, but not impossible (judging by the fact that both parties continue with it)

Con. Won't in all likelihood be around for our next flag, so we may as well put time into others



Retiring

Place on a list for mid-season draft

pro: bargain gun in the draft

Likelihood? probably slim, as they were all already overlooked for both drafts last year, but large enough that it makes us fans salivate at the prospect of a steal

Con: negative effect on club culture of forcing him to retire against his will



I'm open on it.

If Birch chooses to retire, I'm fine with it. I don't want the club forcing it on him .
 

Aramis

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Remaining

Pro: Possibility of a gun returning. For another year?

Likelihood of this happening: Probably slim, but not impossible (judging by the fact that both parties continue with it)

Con. Won't in all likelihood be around for our next flag, so we may as well put time into others



Retiring

Place on a list for mid-season draft

pro: bargain gun in the draft

Likelihood? probably slim, as they were all already overlooked for both drafts last year, but large enough that it makes us fans salivate at the prospect of a steal

Con: negative effect on club culture of forcing him to retire against his will



I'm open on it.

If Birch chooses to retire, I'm fine with it. I don't want the club forcing it on him .
Forcing him against his will? No. Doing the Clarko sit-down persuasion and point to the writing on the wall? like what happened with Lewis, Hodge, Mitchell and essentially Roughy (telling him his in the ressies)? absolutely.

I am having trouble countenancing the fact that it was fine for those 4 legends yet Birchall somehow is immune to that same treatment?

As for negative effects on club culture I think its acceptable at this point and would be accepted by the playing group if he retired. I want him at the club, keep him on as a development coach. He can be as important as anyone to our next era, just needs a new role.
 

thejockey

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I would be giving him every chance to play if he wants too.
Guy was an unsung class act in those premiership sides . Was in great form before he got injured too.

Yep he hasn’t played in 18 months or whatever it is now but we also don’t know if he has gone downhill.

I would have him back at 80% of his best , still would have most AFL backman covered .
Imagine the competition for spots in the side ? Can only be a good thing

If he doesn’t get back so be it
 

TylerDurden

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The reality is, Clarko, Wrighty and Makdisi will all make the call when it's the right time. And to be fair, they have access to FAR more info than we ever will. The fact that he's still training tells you no one has written this off yet. They either think he's a solid chance of returning, or that the replacements are bog average. Or both.

Or he could pull the pin tmrw and say he's had enough. Either way, the club and Birch know the score all too well.
 

Aramis

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The reality is, Clarko, Wrighty and Makdisi will all make the call when it's the right time. And to be fair, they have access to FAR more info than we ever will. The fact that he's still training tells you no one has written this off yet. They either think he's a solid chance of returning, or that the replacements are bog average. Or both.

Or he could pull the pin tmrw and say he's had enough. Either way, the club and Birch know the score all too well.
Clubs can be wrong though, even the almighty Hawks.

If its not already past midnight its definitely getting close.
 

Bugs1977

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I would be giving him every chance to play if he wants too.
Guy was an unsung class act in those premiership sides . Was in great form before he got injured too.

Yep he hasn’t played in 18 months or whatever it is now but we also don’t know if he has gone downhill.

I would have him back at 80% of his best , still would have most AFL backman covered .
Imagine the competition for spots in the side ? Can only be a good thing

If he doesn’t get back so be it
How long was it that JOM was out for before he came back again? I know he’s younger and all but the fact remains that our medicos know all the facts.
 

grumbleguts

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Thanks but you're about 10 minutes late and I also appreciate that you have pointed out I never said it was "fact". 10/10 for effort though. :thumbsu:
You literally stated "it's over" You didn't say "in my opinion it's over" you simply stated the actual fact that it is over. I brought you out of ignore for this, because it was genuinely one of the funniest things I have read on here. I laughed and laughed and showed my kids. They laughed and laughed as well, and we all sat around laughing.

Look I get it, you're not very bright, you might even have an analyst. (which you should change btw, they aren't working out.) But you can't just step into the ring swinging before the ref has read the rules to you and put your gloves on. Use what you have, don't get into arguments with people you ca.... just don't get into arguments. Try some chamomile tea, and get someone to read this to you.
 

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Aramis

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You literally stated "it's over" You didn't say "in my opinion it's over" you simply stated the actual fact that it is over. I brought you out of ignore for this, because it was genuinely one of the funniest things I have read on here. I laughed and laughed and showed my kids. They laughed and laughed as well, and we all sat around laughing.

Look I get it, you're not very bright, you might even have an analyst. (which you should change btw, they aren't working out.) But you can't just step into the ring swinging before the ref has read the rules to you and put your gloves on. Use what you have, don't get into arguments with people you ca.... just don't get into arguments. Try some chamomile tea, and get someone to read this to you.
So are you factually stating that my comment wasn't opinion OR is it your opinion that my comment wasn't opinion? If it's good enough to put that requirement on me to specify, it's good enough to put on you....

Nice attempt at mud slinging, pretty apparent i've hit a nerve. Sorry to spoil your night snowflake. I've read your drivel.. *ahem* I mean your "post" and its getting what it deserves, that is, not a second thought or consideration. Hilariously strong signature content to post content ratio. You can stick me back on your ignore list now. Because you're now on mine. :)
 
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MasterSamurai

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Birch’s plight will be known in August IF he gets no more injuries. If he plays the last 7-10 games of the season without hindrance and at a good level, then don’t be surprised if he gets a one year extension. Said this before round 1 and sticking by it. But, it must be said, that no one could foresee the soft tissue injuries.
 

Alite

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Birch’s plight will be known in August IF he gets no more injuries. If he plays the last 7-10 games of the season without hindrance and at a good level, then don’t be surprised if he gets a one year extension. Said this before round 1 and sticking by it. But, it must be said, that no one could foresee the soft tissue injuries.
You seem to have a vested interest. Be it Bigfooty talk or chat with mates... But Birch is indefinite.
 

MasterSamurai

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You seem to have a vested interest. Be it Bigfooty talk or chat with mates... But Birch is indefinite.
No vested interest at all. Just some info a few months ago I shared about a few of our players on here. Just like Worps won’t be looking to leave although the cats have knocked his door a couple of times . Now he’s signed on to stay since.
Birch is indefinite because every time he amps up his training load , especially running at full tilt and kicking with a bit of anger, he feels uncomfortable. This continues and it’s curtains for the Great Birch!
 

rogiebear93

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Ok cool well heres my opinion and thoughts on Birchall.

1. He has been out for a very long time. He is practically an unknown quantity at this point and past performance is never a reliable indicator for future success. If he comes back, I dont believe he will make a big impact.. see: rule changes, playing style has changed, different team mates.
There's a great saying in finance that you shouldn't trade on stocks unless you are 100% certain can make an informed decision on them based on specialised knowledge. In this case, the Hawks are the only party reasonably informed enough to make a decision on Birch. If they think that he can still contribute, they are the best placed to make that decision.

Also - per changes that might impact his game. He's not been on the moon for 2 years with no exposure to footy, he's been around the club in a certain capacity and has trained and played in simulations with those new guys. Also; our playing style hasn't changed in a huge way, fundamentally it's the same and Birchall would play a big role in contributing to the younger guys learning that style.

Daniel Menzel returned to footy after not playing a game for three years, with much worse injuries and had solid enough impact even given the changes in that time. Granted he was younger, but it's a reliable enough indicator that time away from football doesn't mean you come back completely out of the loop.

2. There are young players in the position he would have played now (Scrimshaw, Hardwick, Sicily). They are playing well and I feel we need to get games into them over giving Birchall a game. (see my thoughts on Roughead being dropped, its its good enough for one not to play seniors its good enough for the other). We're tracking for premierships in the next 2-3 years. Its highly unlikely Birchall will be around then.... Those 3 I named, will be.
This implies that we don't have designs on any of those three players for other positions on the ground. Sicily I believe will be an AA backman and do it for his career, but Hardwick and Scrimshaw might project towards being midfielders in the future. Burgoyne is currently occupied in defense for leadership purposes so we can deploy Impey forward, and I'd think the club would like him to still be a bit more flexible which he isn't currently able to be.

Birchall playing allows us to be flexible with those guys and let them learn new positions and expand their game. Not only that, as I mentioned before, he's that extra bit of leadership that is required to reinforce the game plan to the newer members of our group.

3. List space and cap space.
a. We could take an extra in the mid-season draft. Yes, they might not set the world alight (would Birchall though?) and at least they could theoretically play and add depth?
b. cap space heading into arguably our most important off-season where getting Coniglio could literally be the difference between us competing and being mid-ladder also rans for the next 5 years.
a. These blokes have had a draft, rookie draft and pre-season supplementary period in which to be picked up if they were projected to add quality to a list. There will be some that have played early and exceeded expectations, and will be picked up - but there are a lot of picks to happen before our first pick let alone a potential second pick and the handful of guys that may have stood out will likely be gone. It would be a bad business decision to trade a relatively known quantity for a completely unknown quantity when it may not even be a need.

b. This assumes a few things which are probably incorrect. First is that Birchall is taking a sizeable enough wage that it would be of huge consequence to our post-season player movement, which is probably incorrect considering the fact that our older blokes have been sacrificing their own wage for the long term already. It also assumes that Birch wouldn't have some deal in place with the club to minimize his payments due to the fact that he isn't playing, which again, tends to happen with blokes that have long term injuries.

In summary, I think it's time the club makes the business decision. The known positives of retiring Birchall outweigh the unknown positives of him returning. That is the point i'm trying to make.

Happy to take rebuttals and your perspective.
There is no substantial backing to your supposition that the positives of retiring Birchall are "known" and simply not just your own opinion. In fact, the only way for something to be known or beyond supposition is to have something measurable by which to judge them, which I imagine the club has in the fact that Birchall is there, part of the club and training.
 

Brant

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Birch’s plight will be known in August IF he gets no more injuries. If he plays the last 7-10 games of the season without hindrance and at a good level, then don’t be surprised if he gets a one year extension. Said this before round 1 and sticking by it. But, it must be said, that no one could foresee the soft tissue injuries.
I don’t mean for him to be under-paid, but if Birch is offered a 1-yr extension then I hope it is on low money but jam packed with KPI bonuses.

I hope it isn’t seen as disrespectful, but (as a fan, for whatever that’s worth) I’d be frustrated if we extended him at say $450k & didn’t see him again until he rode in the back of a Hilux on Grand Final Dy.
 

Davo23

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Going from another thread: is Grunt Bouchard right to recover and play a game?

I think Groont is a good chance to get back.
Mind you, Barchesklo has to get his knee right.

I think Giant Birchtree is a good chance.

.
 

col44

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Having passed in the opportunity to pick up a player in the mid season draft (who we would have had to pay as well), I don't think Birchall should retire unless he no longer has the passion.

This argument of the games changed and the rules are different crpa.. It's Birchall he's the guy that is calm under pressure, an excellent user and without anyone even noticing his man had 3 touches. He is the prototype of modern footy. His decision making and foot skills are absolutely elite.

If in anyway he's a chance to play again then he should absolutely be urged to stay.

Also very sick of hearing that senior players stunt the growth or younger players. Players that earn their opportunity, not simply get gifted them work out far better. I am loving that Scrimshaw looks like a Birch 2.0. Though like a good movie don't expect the sequel to be quite as good.

I have my fingers crossed Birchall does make it back. I hope this for Birchall but more so I hope this for Hawthorn because he makes us better.

Roughead is a different situation. He's a key forward who wasn't taking marks (literally the only guy on the ground without one). And if he comes back I have no doubt he'll be better for the stint in the 2s.
 
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