A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

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Pippen94

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Easy to google and find just as many for A-League and hell even the mighty NRL games and lack of crowds.

That and reds post was about no giants gear during grand final week.
Haha
 

RedV3x

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Not sure why the smartarse attitude, it was an interesting point of discussion.
What exactly ? Unlike you and your "friend" most people here have a working knowledge of the Sydney AFL carve-up.
Not to mention inaccuracies, poor logic and poor grammar from you.
 

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General Giant

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Haha
Lol you really must have a miserable life that you go on AFL boards(a sport you obviously loathe) to bag a sport and club that does better than the club you follow.
In your own football clubs supposed heartland.

Had a bit of a look at your LU posts and you are literally begging them to support you and feed your ego that the Wanderers do ok and have been building well.
Pathetic really.
 

Professor Knowall

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Ha - gws played in gf & there wasn't one jersey to be seen across city. ...
Jerseys? The only jerseys I know are cows and you're right - I didn't see one jersey cow across the city. However there were a surprisingly large number of GWS guernseys.
Funny you say that, I headed over to league unlimited to read thoughts about this new Brisbane side being talked about. Who pops up all the time but our old mate Pippen94, paying out on AFL everywhere and calling for it's demise. So more a league fan with a massive chip on his shoulder.

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Well spotted - so is our favourite (and rather too obviously) paranoid troll actually an NRL supporting troll pretending to be a soccer troll? Or vice versa? Either way, at least he's got very good reasons for his paranoia as our great Australian game continues its steady, inexorable growth through NSW and Qld while completely dominating the rest of the country, thus being well on the way to standing alone as the one dominant national code. So Pip is right to be paranoid and I quite like him coming here to entertain us with his nonsense.
 

Johnny Bananas

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Not sure why the smartarse attitude, it was an interesting point of discussion.
Don't mind the uncouth yobs that infest this thread. I'll answer a little more politely.

He is from Sydney himself and tends to think Western Sydney will never truly commit to AFL
He may be right, but never is a long time. Considering the Melbourne Storm have carved out a sustainable following in the very heart of Australian rules territory, it's certainly possible for the Giants to be a success too. They (and the Suns) can already be considered a success in terms of attracting widespread youth participation in the code, which is something the Storm have never really been able to do.

But to truly be considered an off-field success, the Giants will need to start attracting bigger crowds. This isn't an easy task, since Western Sydney is a sprawling, poorly planned area with insufficient public transport, so it's hard for the masses to get to a centralised location the way they can in every other mainland state capital. I think they also made it harder for themselves by playing at Homebush, which is miles away from their target fanbase and has poor transport links. If they'd built a new ground on the oval next to Parramatta Stadium (now Western Sydney Stadium), it probably would have helped, because Parramatta connects to the rest of the West better than any other location. This might change when the metro line connecting Parramatta directly to Homebush comes in, but that's still a decade away.

(even western bulldogs in melbourne are a smaller club)
Patterns of settlement in Melbourne and Sydney are different and can't be compared. Melbourne has three distinct directions it can grow, and for one reason or another it sprawled north and east first. Sydney is geographically contained in all directions except west, so it's been sprawling west for decades now. Consequently Western Sydney is several times bigger than Western Melbourne. That's why the Bulldogs have been a small club until recently (note Wyndham has been the fastest growing area in Australia for the past decade, which bodes well for them) and that's why Western Sydney is potentially a huge prize for the AFL to win.

and that the traditional rugby union areas should have been used as bases for spreading AFL in NSW, as well as canberra.
The traditional union areas are the northern and eastern suburbs, which have already been won over to the Swans. The AFL have certainly not ignored Canberra, which is why they get 3 Giants games a year. Maybe they'll get their own team once the Giants no longer need them.

Therefore I am interested to know what areas swans fans traditionally come from and if there would be a similar market in and around sydney that could be tapped into that hasn't been yet?
Swans fans come from all over Sydney. They certainly have plenty of fans in the eastern suburbs, where they're based, and the northern suburbs. The Giants were set up to take over the areas that the Swans hadn't made inroads into (though I still think they were set up too far east). And no, there's no other similar market in and around Sydney that hasn't been tapped yet. Nowhere else is as large as the 2.5 million+ population of Western Sydney.
 

Pippen94

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Don't mind the uncouth yobs that infest this thread. I'll answer a little more politely.


He may be right, but never is a long time. Considering the Melbourne Storm have carved out a sustainable following in the very heart of Australian rules territory, it's certainly possible for the Giants to be a success too. They (and the Suns) can already be considered a success in terms of attracting widespread youth participation in the code, which is something the Storm have never really been able to do.

But to truly be considered an off-field success, the Giants will need to start attracting bigger crowds. This isn't an easy task, since Western Sydney is a sprawling, poorly planned area with insufficient public transport, so it's hard for the masses to get to a centralised location the way they can in every other mainland state capital. I think they also made it harder for themselves by playing at Homebush, which is miles away from their target fanbase and has poor transport links. If they'd built a new ground on the oval next to Parramatta Stadium (now Western Sydney Stadium), it probably would have helped, because Parramatta connects to the rest of the West better than any other location. This might change when the metro line connecting Parramatta directly to Homebush comes in, but that's still a decade away.


Patterns of settlement in Melbourne and Sydney are different and can't be compared. Melbourne has three distinct directions it can grow, and for one reason or another it sprawled north and east first. Sydney is geographically contained in all directions except west, so it's been sprawling west for decades now. Consequently Western Sydney is several times bigger than Western Melbourne. That's why the Bulldogs have been a small club until recently (note Wyndham has been the fastest growing area in Australia for the past decade, which bodes well for them) and that's why Western Sydney is potentially a huge prize for the AFL to win.


The traditional union areas are the northern and eastern suburbs, which have already been won over to the Swans. The AFL have certainly not ignored Canberra, which is why they get 3 Giants games a year. Maybe they'll get their own team once the Giants no longer need them.


Swans fans come from all over Sydney. They certainly have plenty of fans in the eastern suburbs, where they're based, and the northern suburbs. The Giants were set up to take over the areas that the Swans hadn't made inroads into (though I still think they were set up too far east). And no, there's no other similar market in and around Sydney that hasn't been tapped yet. Nowhere else is as large as the 2.5 million+ population of Western Sydney.
Delusional outsider who's looked at Google maps & reckons oval next to bankwest should be a stadium not knowing it's part of protected Parramatta Park.
Of course why the government should build an oval stadium there just because game wants to expand never crossed your mind.

Metro won't help because all stations are east of Parra.

They had chance to base team in blacktown but crowds would be even smaller than at showground which is closer to monoculture of affluent inner west.
 

General Giant

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Delusional outsider who's looked at Google maps & reckons oval next to bankwest should be a stadium not knowing it's part of protected Parramatta Park.
Of course why the government should build an oval stadium there just because game wants to expand never crossed your mind.

Metro won't help because all stations are east of Parra.

They had chance to base team in blacktown but crowds would be even smaller than at showground which is closer to monoculture of affluent inner west.
Only one delusional is yourself wonderboy.
 

BringBackTorps

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If Manly relocate, the AFL really needs to capitalise
Sydney's NS (Manly Warringah district/Northern Beaches & North Shore/northern Sydney) are certainly becoming a powerful AF area- & GR club & school comp. nos. far exceed GR contact RL club & school comp. nos. Many Swans' fans there.

The Penn family is bankrolling Manly, which attracts small average crowds, covering its losses, & ensuring its survival- but there have been many reports the Penn family wish to depart.

If, however, you are implying a 3rd AFL club should be based there, I disagree.
I agree that the AF growth trend is very likely to continue over the next 10-20 years, where AF will very likely become the dominant contact sport in the NS (& ES & inner WS). "Let nature run its course".

AF, however, is weak (but growing) in Sydney's SW, slightly better in the SS. To grow that area, a 3rd Sydney team should be added there (but only after GWS regularly obtains lockout crowds- some time between 2030-2040, & becomes "WS").

It is essential to place the 3rd Club, called South Sydney Canberra Kooka 'burras (?) in the outer SW (in the Campbelltown area?)- playing 7 games pa in the SW, 6 in Canberra, & 2 in Wollongong. (Some impecunious Melb. Clubs will always want to sell a total of c. 14 home games pa).
These 4 areas (plus Illawarra district & South Coast) will have a population c. 1.5m in 2050, thus must have their own AFL club based in the SW- to grow AF.



Many MSM RL experts, ex NRL officials, ex NRL players, current Rights' holders etc. want fewer NRL clubs in Sydney.

WWOS. B. Glover 3.9.18

A. Johns wants only 12 Clubs in the NRL, because average skill levels have fallen so far. Both he & B. Fittler want fewer Clubs in Sydney.
Fittler wants the NRL to stay at 16 clubs only- but argues Manly should amalgamate with the North Sydney Bears, playing home games in Gosford, Brookvale, & North Sydney oval.


7news.com 7.9.19

Nine wants Brisbane 2, & 1 less NRL club in Sydney- to keep the NRL at 16 clubs, so as not to dilute falling NRL skill levels further.


foxsports.com.au 8.3.19

P. Kent also wants Brisbane 2, but the NRL should remain at 16 clubs- so argues Sydney should have 1 less club.


ultrasports.com.au S. Ayoub 2.9.19

J. Thurston also wants Brisbane 2, 1 less Sydney NRL club, NRL must remain at 16 clubs.


smh.com.au A. Prosenko 19.3.19

J. Ribot, former Super League CHief, wants 2 Sydney clubs to depart Sydney, nominates Cronulla & Manly to relocate to Perth & Adelaide; & that NRL must not expand beyond 16 teams.


dailytelegraph.com.au 21.3.19

A. Griffin, now St George coach, wants 2 less Sydney NRL clubs, & that the NRL should not expand beyond 16 clubs- due to deteriorating skill levels in the NRL.

"Axe one, relocate another. That's the call from Anthony Griffin, who says going from 16 to 18 NRL teams is not sustainable for rugby league given the current state of the game".

(Behind paywall- can anyone open, & post here please)
 
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Kappa

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Funny you say that, I headed over to league unlimited to read thoughts about this new Brisbane side being talked about. Who pops up all the time but our old mate Pippen94, paying out on AFL everywhere and calling for it's demise. So more a league fan with a massive chip on his shoulder.

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That Pippen guy has deep seated insecurities, it's hilarious to watch. He's truly obsessed
 

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RedV3x

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Only one delusional is yourself wonderboy.
Maybe there is a little Pippen in all of us - a wishing and a hoping.
The difference is I've been there for the creation of a Sydney AFL team. I've witnessed two premierships for a Sydney team, the halcyon threepeat for Brisbane, the establishment of the Suns and the rise of GWS. I'm still waiting for a Dockers premiership - can't have everything.

In the meantime it must be terribly frustrating to be an Australian soccer fanatic with people constantly projecting the lofty potential of the game whilst dismissing the reality of the game. Soccer swapped their old reliable bike for a new bike that needs constant fixing and now the air has gone out of the tyres.

The same for rugby fans. Expansion and an international competition promised so much but poor long-term decisions and a Sydney-centric administration have left rugby in dire straits in Australia resulting in the poor performances of the wallabies.

I think the motto for NRL most NRL fans would be "what me worry". NRL fans should be frustrated and some are, but NRL seems to be able to bounce back from adversity like a ball bearing in a pinball machine. The S.O.O. might be rugby league's "high score" bit eventually those flamboyant flippers are going to miss completely.
 

Johnny Bananas

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If Manly relocate, the AFL really needs to capitalise
The Penn family is bankrolling Manly, which attracts small average crowds, covering its losses, & ensuring its survival- but there have been many reports the Penn family wish to depart.
It's irrelevant whether Manly continues to be owned by the Penns or not, they're almost certainly staying in the NRL and won't relocate anywhere. Brookvale Oval is currently undergoing a $33m redevelopment, almost entirely at taxpayer expense. Both the federal and NSW governments will blow their stack at the NRL if Manly don't continue to play at Brookvale for at least the next decade, because it will be seen as a waste of taxpayer money. Even V’landys isn't hare-brained enough to bite the hand that feeds him with stadium funds, especially since he wants more boutique stadia rebuilt.

No matter what all the talking heads in the media say, I don't believe the NRL are going to axe a Sydney team. There are only three teams that were even in the conversation for relocation or rationalisation - Wests Tigers, Manly and Cronulla. Wests are getting a $75m redevelopment of their training ground and have the financial backing of the powerful Wests Ashfield leagues club. Manly are getting the taxpayer funded redevelopment mentioned above. And Cronulla are the only team in the NRL to own their own stadium. They're asset-rich and cash-rich after selling off much of the surrounding land for redevelopment. None of them are in a dire enough position to be forced out by the NRL.

It is essential to place the 3rd Club, called South Sydney Canberra Kooka 'burras (?) in the outer SW (in the Campbelltown area?)- playing 7 games pa in the SW, 6 in Canberra, & 2 in Wollongong.
Why do you keep calling your proposed team "South Sydney" if they're based in the far southwest? They're very different areas. Not only that, I doubt Campbelltown will be big enough to support a team even in 20 years.
 

BringBackTorps

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He is from Sydney himself and tends to think Western Sydney will never truly commit [Definition?] to AFL
Your friend appears to be misinformed.

GWS had c. 30,500 members in 2019, & c. 31,000 in 2020 (Includes c. 6000 from the ACT). 2021 is expected to be higher. Nil in 2009.

GR jnr Club & school comp. player nos. in the WS have almost tripled since 2010 (which does not include the big nos. at Western Magpies JFC in Croydon, Drummoyne JFC, Leichardt JFC, Canada Bay JFC, Concord JFC, & Glebe JFC- all who are playing in the Swans Sydney Harbour Inner Metro comp.).
GWS averaged c. 11k at Giants Stadium in 2019; & GWS private sponsorship puts it c. 7th in the AFL.

These are all excellent results for a Club that only started in 2012 in WS- an area that previously had very little AF presence, & gave the rugby codes a head start of 120 years. AF continues to grow each year in WS.
It should be noted that 150 of Australia's Top 500 companies have HQ's that are located in Sydney's WS.


(even western bulldogs in melbourne are a smaller club)
It is correct that Melbourne's WS are the weakest area for GR AF & the AFL in Victoria- similar to Sydney's WS, c. 50% of its residents are born overseas, or have at least 1 parent born overseas. I assume c. 15%+ (from both Sydney & Melbourne WS) have backgrounds from Turkey, Asia, the Middle East, Africa, & Pacific Islands - the weakest AF demographic.

These backgrounds are a major challenge for AF in Sydney's WS- but in Melbourne's WS & NS, there are reasonable nos. of kids from Middle Eastern & African backgrounds playing AF.
In Melbourne's private schools, there are reasonable nos. of kids from East & South Asian backgrounds playing in school AF comps.
Ditto, in the amateur snr Old Boys' School VAFA clubs, anecdotally c. 3-4% of these VAFA players have an Asian appearance. Reasonable nos. of persons of an Asian appearance also attend AFL matches.

Sydney's WS have a population of c. 2.2m (currently more than double Melbourne's WS- inc. NW & SW). AF only needs to recruit c. 10% of Sydney's WS as "fans"- either committed, or casual. It is possible up to 2050, & a worthwhile aspiration.
These above demographics (as per in Melbourne) can be won over, but it may take 2 or 3 generations.

It's irrelevant whether Manly continues to be owned by the Penns or not, they're almost certainly staying in the NRL and won't relocate anywhere
P. V'landys, T. Greenberg, P. Beattie, J. Grant, & other RL officials, & many MSM commentators, have said if any Sydney NRL clubs have severe financial problems, the NRL will not bail them out. P. Gould predicted in early 2020 that, by 2030 one Sydney club will merge, fold, or be relocated.

It is possible, or likely, the NRL's Rights have been heavily reduced post 28.5.20.
The Pokie Pre-Commitment Card is almost certain to be introduced in NSW. This will result in NRL- affiliated pokie clubs to become much less profitable.
Either development could cause some Sydney clubs to fold.

Why do you keep calling your proposed team "South Sydney" if they're based in the far southwest? They're very different areas. Not only that, I doubt Campbelltown will be big enough to support a team even in 20 years.
I envisage South Sydney Canberra would represent Sydney's SW & SS (in addition to the ACT, Illawarra, & sthn NSW)- not just only Campbelltown
 
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Bjo187

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Your friend appears to be uninformed.

GWS had c. 30,500 members in 2019, & c. 31,000 in 2020 (Includes c. 6000 from the ACT). 2021 is expected to be higher. Nil in 2009.

GR jnr Club & school comp. player nos. in the WS have almost tripled since 2010 (which does not include the big nos. at Western Magpies JFC in Croydon, Drummoyne JFC, Leichardt JFC, Canada Bay JFC, Concord JFC, & Glebe JFC- all who are playing in the Swans Sydney Harbour Inner Metro comp.).
GWS averaged c. 11k at Giants Stadium in 2019; & GWS private sponsorship puts it c. 7th in the AFL.

These are all excellent results for a Club that only started in 2012 in WS- an area that previously had very little AF presence, & gave the rugby codes a head start of 120 years. AF continues to grow each year in WS.
It should be noted that 150 of Australia's Top 500 companies are located in Sydney's WS.



It is correct that Melbourne's WS are the weakest area for GR AF & the AFL in Victoria- similar to Sydney's WS, c. 50% of its residents are born overseas, or have at least 1 parent born overseas. I assume c. 15%+ (from both Sydney & Melbourne WS) have backgrounds from Turkey, Asia, the Middle East, Africa, & Pacific Islands - the weakest AF demographic.

These backgrounds are a major challenge for AF in Sydney's WS- but in Melbourne's WS & NS, there are fairly good nos. of kids from Middle Eastern & African backgrounds playing AF.
In Melbourne's private schools, there are reasonable nos. of kids from East & South Asian backgrounds playing in school AF comps.
Ditto, in the amateur snr Old Boys' VAFA clubs- anecdotally, c. 4% of players in VAFA Old Boys' clubs have an Asian appearance. Many non-players also attend AFL matches.

Sydney's WS have a population of c. 2.2m (currently more than double Melbourne's WS- inc. NW & SW). AF only needs to recruit c. 10% of Sydney's WS as "fans"- either committed, or casual. It is possible,
Yeah he grew up in Sydney but moved to Canberra and funnily enough was an AFL development officer in Canberra in his early 20s. Now a coach in the EDFL.
Perhaps his loyalties lie with having a team in Canberra but also his reasoning was the success of the giants in Canberra already and that it would make sense to continue the investment they're more so than in Western Sydney. Actually he did say that they should just switch the 8 and 3 home game split and have the majority in Canberra and only a few in Western Sydney so there is some remaining afl presence.
I do agree with you and did state that the numbers in junior participation in Western Sydney have significantly increased and that in some respects that's a reflection of success already. I personally think a Canberra team would be great for the game, either named Canberra Riverina or Canberra Southern nsw.
 

Canberra Pear

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It is essential to place the 3rd Club, called South Sydney Canberra Kooka 'burras (?) in the outer SW (in the Campbelltown area?)- playing 7 games pa in the SW, 6 in Canberra, & 2 in Wollongong. (Some impecunious Melb. Clubs will always want to sell a total of c. 14 home games pa).
I mentioned it a while back, but if you're going to have a team covering Campbelltown, you're best having it at the new aerotropolis.

The planning for greater Sydney is for a "metropolis of three cities" with three city centres (Eastern Harbour, Central River and Western Parklands) and everywhere in each city able to get to their centre in 30 mins.

We already have two teams in the two centres, with the obvious SCG, and Parramatta-Olympic Park the centre for the Central River City. The only one without a team is the Western Parklands City, which will stretch from Penrith to Liverpool, and everywhere in that stretch (1.1m people by 2036) able to get to the centre (the aerotropolis) in under 30 mins.

And the beauty is it's not built yet. The AFL can influence infrastructure from the start.
 

BringBackTorps

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He is from Sydney himself and tends to think Western Sydney will never truly commit [GWS only needs c. 10% of 2.2m to be a success] to AFL (even western bulldogs in melbourne are a smaller club[Yes])
I agree that GWS has made minimal progress up to now amongst the vast multicultural diasporas of WS (c. 50% of the population there)- it is a major challenge. Dr. K. Perry, in his Doctorate presented to Western Sydney University, confirmed this (amongst other topics, he analysed, in detail, GWS' promotional strategies & fan base). See my post#3426 above, re his Doctorate.

In Melbourne, AF is starting to attract some support from persons of an Asian, Middle Eastern, & African background- & now has, generally, good support from second & third generation persons of non-anglo celtic immigrant European backgrounds.


Please indulge me in some left-field (crazy!?) musings...

I will add that my, & my wife's, family come from an immigrant, european (non anglo celtic) background; & that, for these european immigrants in Melbourne who came to Australia when they were 15 y.o. or older, very few (even after being in Melbourne for decades) ever had any real interest in AF. (But would often feign interest in AF, to "fit-in", when asked by locals who they barrack for).

Persons from a continental European etc. background are still well underrepresnted in 2021 in players in the AFL (with the probable exception, only after 2000, of Italian-background players in the AFL).

Just as Port Adelaide has successfully played INXS 'Never Tear Us Apart' at its home games, to create a good vibe, I believe that GWS should play, in addition to 'Its A Big, Big Sound', a foreign language song/s- to send the clear message it wants to embrace the large diasporas of WS. Ditto, Footscray at home games

It would be a major Point Of Difference to any other sporting club in Australia (& the world), & would attract much MSM (& local ethnic media) commentary.

The song I would choose initially for GWS would be Misirlou- but not the sensational Dick Dale 1962 US Hit Record Misirlou, a fast-paced electric "surf guitar" instrumental (& played again in the 1994 movie Pulp Fiction). Dale's father was Lebanese, & it was hummed/sung to him in Arabic from childhood- Misirlou means "Egyptian Woman" in Turkish.

Very few are aware that this tune is very old, claimed & disputed by many countries from Morocco to Iraq (including Jews) as a folk tune originating there. The first time it was ever made into a record was 1927, in New York by Greeks from Ottoman Turkey- with mainly Greek lyrics, & some Arabic & Turkish also (re unrequited, forbidden love by a Greek man for an Egyptian moslem woman).

Some experts have claimed the tune only (not lyrics) might be 600 years old; or could be the oldest surviving tune ever, from ancient Babylon (& papyrus)!
The musical styles of the top 4 recordings below are very old, & all originate from the eastern Mediterranean.

Some experts claim, subjectively of course, the Misirlou tune is one of the most beautiful & haunting melodies ever written- probably why so many countries around the Mediterranean want to claim the tune originated in their country.



Misirlou in Arabic (lyrics much less lusty than the Greek lyrics, no mention of a Christian coveting a Moslem woman).








Misirlou in Greek (Traditional, slower, sang in a different key, with accents of Greeks born in Turkey)










Misirlou in Greek (More up tempo, with full English lyrics in Notes- translated from the 1927 Greek record)











Misirlou in Turkish, with some Greek & Arabic











Misirlou Dick Dale's 1962 Instrumental Electric "Surf Guitar" Hit Record (Great dancing!)
 
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Professor Knowall

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... Please indulge me in some left-field (crazy!?) musings ...

Just as Port Adelaide has successfully played INXS 'Never Tear Us Apart' at its home games, to create a good vibe, I believe that GWS should play, in addition to 'Its A Big, Big Sound', a foreign language song/s- to send the clear message it wants to embrace the large diasporas of WS. Ditto, Footscray at home games

It would be a major Point Of Difference to any other sporting club in Australia (& the world), & would attract much MSM (& local ethnic media) commentary.

The song I would choose initially for GWS would be Misirlou- but not the sensational Dick Dale 1962 US Hit Record Misirlou, a fast-paced electric guitar "surf rock" instrumental (& played again in the 1994 movie Pulp Fiction). Dale's father was Lebanese, & it was sung to him from childhood- Misirlou means "Egyptian Woman" in Turkish.

Very few are aware that this tune is very old, claimed & disputed by many countries from Morocco to Iraq as a folk song originating there. The first time it was ever made into a record was 1927, in New York by Greeks from Ottoman Turkey- with mainly Greek lyrics, & some Arabic & Turkish also (re unrequited, forbidden love by a Greek man in Turkey for an Egyptian moslem woman).

Some experts have claimed the tune only (ie not the lyrics) could be 600 years old; or could be the oldest surviving tune ever, going back to ancient Babylon!
The musical styles of the top 4 recordings below are very old, & all originate from the eastern Mediterranean.

Some experts claim, subjectively of course, the Misirlou tune is one of the most beautiful & haunting melodies ever written- probably why so many countries around the Mediterranean want to claim the tune originated in their country. ...
I'm unsure if playing 'Misirlou' pregame would make an much of impact on the younger generation today, regardless of their ethnic origins - but I loved the post for the music history lesson - and it's definitely a beautiful melody so I'm happy to indulge in the left-field crazy musings.
 

BringBackTorps

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1. The Front Office Podcast A. Tallarico (Director Newtown Jets) & R. Haidar 16.9.20
(Haidar, an award-winning journalist, recently had a very good NRL podcast series recently under the pseudonym "The NRL Economist")

The Sydney-based Front Office podcast series specialises in RL, & is very analytical & broad ranging. Its focus is on NRL business & economic issues, & also often on RL strategic issues; & does many interviews with RL luminaries.

Episode 17 Topic: RL Participation in NSW & Qld.
(Examining the issue of the significant male contact RL declining nos. in NSW, ACT, & Qld.).

They say, paraphrasing:-

. a major problem for GR contact RL is player churn- eg in U 13's, RL Clubs lose c. 30% of their (male*) contact RL players.

. "over competitive culture, concentrating on winning" is causing a lot of jnrs to quit.

. "coastal [GR RL] clubs can't compete with the beach"; "inner city (Sydney GR contact RL nos. & survival), forget about it".

. GR Clubs must encourage more parents to get involved as volunteers (because GR RL has a severe problem with sufficient volunteer nos., & to help GR participation & growth).

. instead of dissatisfied players, who become to dislike "the heavy contact", quitting their club, encourage them to stay at the club as tag players (in the new burgeoning RL Clubs' affiliated tag comps.).

. the NRL was unsuccessful in its recent attempt to take over the Oz Tag organisation, & its comps.
Tag needs to be pursued more vigorously, to help advance RL growth.

. general discussion on pros & cons of jnr contact RL weight divisions, cf the usual (since c.1970) age divisions. They disagreed with each other, re weight divisions being helpful to increase contact RL growth.

Haidar wanted kids to be "eased" into contact RL, bigger kids are, often, much too intimidating.

Tallarico, however, said the real & major priority is to teach light weight kids early to tackle safely & effectively the much bigger kids- to build their confidence early (He cites approvingly Ivan Cleary when he was a skinny light weight in NZ, tackling the big kids early).
He also claimed young big kids playing in age groups several years higher will have negative psychological problems for them.

. AFL is doing a much better job in NSW & Qld. at recruiting kids, than RL.

. AFL is trying to attract all different demographics, & is having some success eg it has started a program to attract the 10,000 kids in Islamic schools in Aust. to AF, with some good results. The NRL has no such Islamic program.

. "The AFL will capitalise on the success of GWS in the next 10 years (all emphases & words in brackets, mine)".


(listen from 2 mins 40 secs. -15 mins. 40 secs.)

*Female contact RL has had significant growth since 2017, off a low base.







2. Rugby Reloaded Podcast T. Collins 11.9.20 Episode 139

T. Collins is an History Professor from De Montfort Uni., Leicester, who specialises in the history of UK RL & RU; & analyses issues & trends affecting RL & RU around the world. He interviews many experts in his weekly podcasts.

Mark Evans was formerly a CEO of Harlequins RU Club, & CEO Melb. Storm- now, is CEO Global Rapid Rugby comp. (created by WA Billionaire Twiggy Forrest to create a fast-paced style of RU, & a new, Asian-focused comp. that the Western Force could play in).
They discuss the major issues facing RU & RL in Aust. & the Sthn. Hemisphere.

Collins said, re Evans "The only person to be a Chief Executive of 3 Rugby codes".

Evans said, re Australia's situation:-

. to increase RU's appeal, it needs to become more free flowing, speed it up, with less stoppages.

. there is a lot of baggage & cultural issues between RL & RU.

. RU might become a 13 man sport, but unlikely to merge/combine/work in harmony with RL. "We can't go back to 1895 [creation of RL in UK]".

. RL hardly has any contests for possession, which cause it to be disliked by RU fans.

. RU players have massively increased in height & weight. The game must reintroduce fatigue into RU, so light weight, skilful (& thus exciting) players can become prominent again.

. RL has become too predictible as a game, hit up after hit up etc, then kick.
However, unlike RU, the NRL can be nimble with Rule changes (since it basically controls RL).

. Super Rugby with South African & Argentine involvement is permanently finished- time zones terrible.
Japan & Pacific nations may join Super Rugby.

. Players from a Pasifika background will become an increasingly higher % of all NRL players.

. it is inevitable RL will have to have significant Rule changes.




These problems besetting both RL & RU's appeal, for players, fans, & broadcasters in Australia, are very likely providing strategic advantages for the AFL & GR AF in NSW, ACT, & Qld.
 
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