A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

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General Giant

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Apr 12, 2012
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Northern Beaches/North Shore is the right area for a new team.
Not really, i would say Sydney wise Macarthur is the only area left.
In saying that there is a club with a lot of history, 1 of the oldest in the state, and is one of the biggest grassroots clubs out there in the North Shore Bombers.
 
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RedV3x

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Dec 14, 2015
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. a major problem for GR contact RL is player churn- eg in U 13's, RL Clubs lose c. 30% of their contact RL players.

. "over competitive culture, concentrating on winning" is causing a lot of jnrs to quit.

. "coastal [GR RL] clubs can't compete with the beach"; "inner city [Sydney GR RL], forget about it".

. GR Clubs must encourage more parents to get involved as volunteers (to help GR participation & growth).
Exactly the same for AFL

Our club would lose 50% of players in first high school year.
Burnout is a huge problem for young talented football players.
The temptation is there but surfing and football are not mutually exclusive.
getting adults to do anything, anytime is problematical.

It's a bit strange stating that encouraging non-contact rugby league is somehow helpful.
In Australian Football the two options are community football or following a pathway hierarchy.
Contact is not the issue rather commitment is.
 

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Pippen94

Club Legend
Jun 12, 2019
1,107
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I agree that GWS has made minimal progress up to now amongst the vast multicultural diasporas of WS (c. 50% of the population there)- it is a major challenge. Dr. K. Perry, in his Doctorate presented to Western Sydney University, confirmed this (amongst other topics, he analysed, in detail, GWS' promotional strategies & fan base). See my post#3426 above, re his Doctorate.

In Melbourne, AF is starting to attract some support from persons of an Asian, Middle Eastern, & African background- & now has, generally, good support from second & third generation persons of non-anglo celtic immigrant European backgrounds.


Please indulge me in some left-field (crazy!?) musings...

I will add that my, & my wife's, family come from an immigrant, european (non anglo celtic) background; & that, for these european immigrants in Melbourne who came to Australia when they were 15 y.o. or older, very few (even after being here decades) ever had any real interest in AF. (But would often feign interest in AF, to "fit-in", when asked by locals who they barrack for).

Persons from a continental European etc. background are still well underrepresnted in 2021 in players in the AFL (with the probable exception, only after 2000, of Italian-background players in the AFL).

Just as Port Adelaide has successfully played INXS 'Never Tear Us Apart' at its home games, to create a good vibe, I believe that GWS should play, in addition to 'Its A Big, Big Sound', a foreign language song/s- to send the clear message it wants to embrace the large diasporas of WS. Ditto, Footscray at home games

It would be a major Point Of Difference to any other sporting club in Australia (& the world), & would attract much MSM (& local ethnic media) commentary.

The song I would choose initially for GWS would be Misirlou- but not the sensational Dick Dale 1962 US Hit Record Misirlou, a fast-paced electric "surf guitar" instrumental (& played again in the 1994 movie Pulp Fiction). Dale's father was Lebanese, & it was hummed/sung to him in Arabic from childhood- Misirlou means "Egyptian Woman" in Turkish.

Very few are aware that this tune is very old, claimed & disputed by many countries from Morocco to Iraq (including Jews) as a folk tune originating there. The first time it was ever made into a record was 1927, in New York by Greeks from Ottoman Turkey- with mainly Greek lyrics, & some Arabic & Turkish also (re unrequited, forbidden love by a Greek man for an Egyptian moslem woman).

Some experts have claimed the tune only (not lyrics) might be 600 years old; or could be the oldest surviving tune ever, from ancient Babylon (& papyrus)!
The musical styles of the top 4 recordings below are very old, & all originate from the eastern Mediterranean.

Some experts claim, subjectively of course, the Misirlou tune is one of the most beautiful & haunting melodies ever written- probably why so many countries around the Mediterranean want to claim the tune originated in their country.



Misirlou in Arabic









Misirlou in Greek (Traditional, slower)










Misirlou in Greek (More up tempo, with full English lyrics in Notes- translated from the 1927 Greek record)











Misirlou in Turkish, with some Greek & Arabic











Misirlou Dick Dale's 1962 Instrumental Electric "Surf Guitar" Hit Record (Great dancing!)
Bizarre, culturally tone death post which smacks of appropriation. Idea if you use non anglo song it'll appeal to all ppl of different backgrounds - weird
 

Johnny Bananas

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P. V'landys, T. Greenberg, P. Beattie, J. Grant, & other RL officials, & many MSM commentators, have said if any Sydney NRL clubs have severe financial problems, the NRL will not bail them out.
They can say that, but when push comes to shove, V’landys will realise a couple of things -
1. Culling a club will forever lose tens of thousands of fans to the game, probably driving many of them into the hands of the AFL.

2. They cannot risk annoying federal and state governments if they commit funds to a stadium redevelopment only for the club playing there to be culled from the NRL. The NRL needs government funds badly, they can't develop their own stadia in their present financial position.

V’landys is a Trump-style self-important carnival barker, but he's probably intelligent enough to realise how much damage culling a Sydney club would cause to the NRL.
 

BringBackTorps

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2017
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They can say that, but when push comes to shove, V’landys will realise a couple of things -
1. Culling a club will forever lose tens of thousands of fans to the game, probably driving many of them into the hands of the AFL.[Yes]
GR snr & jnr male contact RL has collapsed in Sydney's NS, ES, & inner WS. The NRL will not "throw good money after bad", spending tens of millions of $ on doomed Sydney NRL clubs, trying to salvage the unsalvagable.
The NRL will probably realise that the NS, ES, & inner WS, by c. 2040, will, generally, be lost for RL.
IMO, Manly's survival chances- as a stand-alone Club in Sydney- are bleak.

The 2020 Combined Conference North Eastern Open Age Gold comp. had 6 adult GR teams only- Cromer, Redfern, Ryde Eastwood, Belrose, Coogee, & Forestville.
The 2020 Combined Conference North Eastern Open Age Silver comp. had 6 adult GR teams only also- Cromer 2, Coogee 2, Berowra, Five Docks, Leichardt (latter two, inner WS), & South East Club (latter includes some players from SS).

As RL expert A. Tallarico (who is also a Director of Newtown Jets) said, in his Front Office Podcast of 16.9.20, re GR jnr & snr contact RL survival prospects

"Coastal clubs can't compete with the beach, inner city, forget about it". (see post#3473 above).

12 teams is a simply shockingly low no. of GR snr teams for RL, given the population of the NS, ES, inner WS (& some of the SS)- c. 2m+.
It is likely, however, that some snr GR teams decided to go into recess for 2020, due to covid- & will play again in 2021.



The Penn family has publicly expressed its desire to stop bankrolling Manly, & the NRL has publicly stated it will not bail-out any broke Sydney NRL Clubs.
In early 2020, P. Gould (who was described recently by P. V'landys as having "...a great rugby league brain") predicted that there will be at least one less NRL club in Sydney in the next 10 years.

I suspect Manly will be forced to merge with Roosters eventually, & Brookvale will probably be used for c. 4 or 5 games pa..
I agree with you this will probably annoy the NSW & Federal govt., because it is being upgraded.

The reason that Combined Conferences have had to be formed throughout ALL of Sydney from U13 upwards (excluding only Penrith District RL in 2020) is because the 11 other Districts are also in severe decline.
Players now often have lengthy travel times (which will induce further RL contraction).
 
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BringBackTorps

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1. Female private secondary school AF is growing very strongly in Sydney, in the ISC AF comp.
This ISC 7 week comp. only began formally in 2019- but in 2021, there are a record 72 girls' teams from 12 private schools. This is an increase of 1 new school joining, & an increase of 19 teams, cf 2020.


The schools are Abbotsleigh, Brigidine, Loreto, Monte Sant'Angelo, Pymble Ladies, Ravenswood, St Catharines, Stella Maris (joins 2021), Wenona- all in the NS & ES; also MLC, PLC, & St Scholastica's, all in the inner WS.

As in Melbourne private schools, in Sydney it is the all-girl schools that lead the way (cf co-ed private & govt.schools) in school female AF- no pesky sneering boys!

It should be noted that some of these schools have a long history of achieving some of the best Year 12 academic results, averaged across the Year 12 cohort, in Australia.
In c. 2040+, many of these AF-playing ISC students are very likely to have very senior & influential positions in Sydney, NSW etc.- which bodes well for the pro-AF influence they may be able to impart.





2. The AFL announced 17.2 it has had a loss of "only" $22m in 2020- a very good result when, earlier in the covid-led recession, many had fears of a much greater loss.


This relatively "good" result will allow the AFL to continue to invest strongly in NSW, ACT, & Qld.





3. GR JNR & SNR RL IN MAJOR TROUBLE IN SYDNEY

There has been a collapse in RL in 2020, mainly from U13 to adult comps., in GR jnr & snr male contact RL in all areas of Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.- but it, also, is in decline).

All the District RL comps. are now defunct in Sydney, re covering from U6- Open adult comps., in their own discrete areas. All now, from U13, have to play in Combined comps.
Penrith District RL remains discrete until U19, & Parramatta remains discrete until U18 only.

In 2020, there were a total of only 79 GR adult male contact RL teams in all Sydney- extraordinarily low, & almost shocking.

In an "heartland" RL city of c. 5.35m in 2020, GR male RL & the NRL have major problems.
(Ditto the Gold Coast- Brisbane [excluding Ipswich District RL]- Sunshine Coast corridor for GR jnr & snr male contact RL).

It is very likely GR AF, & the AFL, will increase their popularity, in NSW, ACT, & Qld. whilst RL is having these severe, ongoing declines in male contact RL.


Details of all the various District RL comps. in Sydney, with their nos. of GR jnr & snr male contact RL teams, are here.

(Scroll to my post #467)
 
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TWLS

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Jul 19, 2015
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1. Female private secondary school AF is growing very strongly in Sydney, in the ISC AF comp.
This ISC 7 week comp. only began formally in 2019- but in 2021, there are a record 72 girls' teams from 12 private schools. This is an increase of 1 new school joining, & an increase of 19 teams, cf 2020.


The schools are Abbotsleigh, Brigidine, Loreto, Monte Sant'Angelo, Pymble Ladies, Ravenswood, St Catharines, Stella Maris (joins 2021), Wenona- all in the NS & ES; also MLC, & St Scholastica's PLC, all in the inner WS.

As in Melbourne private schools, in Sydney it is the all-girl schools lead the way (cf co-ed private schools) in school female AF- no pesky sneering boys!

It should be noted that some of these schools have a long history of achieving some of the best, Year 12 academic results, across the Year 12 cohort, in Australia.
In c. 2040+, many of these AF-playing students are very likely to have very senior & influential positions in Sydney, NSW etc.- which bodes well for the pro AF influence they may be able to impart.





2. The AFL announced 17.2 it has had a loss of "only" $22m in 2020- a very good result when, earlier in the covid-led recession, many had fears of a much greater loss.


This relatively good result will allow the AFL to continue to invest strongly in NSW, ACT, & Qld.





3. There has been a collapse in 2020, from U12 to adult comps., in GR jnr & snr male contact RL in all areas of Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.- but it, also, is in decline).

In 2020, there were a total of only 79 GR adult male contact RL teams in Sydney- extraordinarily low, & almost shocking.

It is very likely GR AF, & the AFL, will increase their popularity, whilst RL is having these severe problems.

(Scroll to my post #467)
Ref the Womens AFL Teams growth.
Well remember that particular comp starting in 2019 -Apparently some girls and parents originally requested it in 2018 after watching the AFLW promotions.
Some early teams just had enough numbers at the start.

Here is link to NSW Catholic Primary Schools 2021 "Australian Football" female invites program scattered around NSW in the Mackillop Division.
It appears that there is enough interest around for this project to get underway again.

Further research shows that there are another two groups in the NSW Catholic Sports catering for females wishing to play our game.
1/ Polding Division similar set up to the one above.
2/ NSWCCC Division which is based in Wagga for 13,14,15 year old females who must have had playing experience in our game.
Do not know the numbers expected for all of the above comps but growth is likely.
 

BringBackTorps

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2017
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1. Female AF is growing strongly in the Swans' Zones in Sydney, & other parts of NSW.

Even though the Swans don't yet have an AFLW team, the Swans' Female Academy U17 & U19 teams, in their first competitive games in these age groups, defeated the Giants' Academy teams (Replays of both good scoring games in the link below).

The Giants are not helped by GR Club female AF being whiteanted in sthn. NSW- AF heartland, with nearly all AF clubs there having large nos. of affiliated female netball teams- to assist netball.

The Swans' Female Academies (in 2021 having 326 Academy players) bodes well for the continuing growth of GR female AF in the Swans' Zones in Sydney, & other parts of NSW/ACT.
Furthermore, the Swans' eventual AFLW entry will further turbocharge GR Club & school female AF growth in Sydney & NSW/ACT.






2. The diversity of skills needed to play AF, & watching the televised AFLW itself, are big, motivating factors for young females in Sydney & NSW to play AF.
Several female teenage players (including from Newcastle & Wollongong), who are elite athletes, describe the appeal of AF for them, & why they they chose to forgo other sports.

(Scroll to my post# 342)
 
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RedV3x

Club Legend
Dec 14, 2015
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The Giants are not helped by GR Club female AF being whiteanted in sthn. NSW- AF heartland, with nearly all AF clubs having large nos. of affiliated female netball teams- to assist netball.
IMO it adds strength rather than weakness.
It would be good to hear from someone connected with this arrangement.
 

robbieando

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Oct 9, 2001
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IMO it adds strength rather than weakness.
It would be good to hear from someone connected with this arrangement.
There is no arrangement and certainly, nothing different in that Football and Netball clubs in Country Victoria and Southern NSW have traditionally been combined under the one club banner. It doesn't prevent clubs in these areas from starting and operating women's football teams.

To claim white-anting is a huge stretch even by BBT's standards.
 

BringBackTorps

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1.
IMO it adds strength rather than weakness.
How does white-anting female club AF in sthn. NSW help the growth of female AF there, or the Giants' AFLW team & female Academies?
Sthn. NSW is AF heartland, & female GR Club AF there should be a powerhouse- but it's far from it.

It would be good to hear from someone connected with this arrangement.
You can read the 2019 Review, conducted by AFL Riverina, into GR AF in sthn. NSW- including female Club AF there.
(See my posts #153, 176, & 183 in the link below, & the Review)

The Review mentions:-

."...growth of female football, & the integration into AFL Riverina factoring in netball".

"...factor in the community importance of netball".


(The sthn. NSW GR AF Clubs & AFL Riverina should give priority to female AF, NOT netball! My words & emphases).

Sthn. NSW is AF heartland, with a very large no. of male jnr & snr Club teams.

There are, however, from 2019, only 7 adult female teams in the sthn. NSW comp.- a dismal figure: & until recently, there were only 2 adult female teams ( which were forced to play in the AFL ACT comp.). This is evidence of the neglect, white-anting, & lack of promotion for female AF.

The AF clubs there should be embarrassed, when it is considered the once-barren-for AF RL heartland areas of Newcastle Hunter, & Wollongong Illawarra, have 17 adult female Club teams & 13 adult female Club teams respectively, for several years.
The sthn. NSW female comps. start in Feb.- even though temperatures in the region in Feb. & March can often reach 30-38 degrees.

Disturbingly, these female comps. (ie not inc. male comps.) are "mickey-mouse", as they only go for c.7 weeks
The summer heat & female comp. brevity are obviously unfair on females- AF is not a summer sport





2. BF poster TWLS, in his post#154 & 159 in the link above, has provided further Links (inc. the final Review), & also noted:-

. the sthn. NSW GR AF clubs' "...well entrenched attitude of a netball first policy". Post #154

."...netball has to be looked after to protect the various [sthn. NSW GR AF] Clubs & their culture" Post #159
 
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RedV3x

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Dec 14, 2015
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How does white-anting female club AF in sthn. NSW help the growth of female AF there, or the Giants' AFLW team & female Academies?
Where's the "white-anting" ?
I'm supposing netball was there before AFLW - therefore AFLW would be "white-anting" netball.
Anyway, in non emotional terms you're saying netball and AFLW are competitors - a fair and logical assumption.
But are they ? I would imagine those sports are scheduled so players could participate in both.
I'm also supposing that many towns down that way are struggling for numbers.
I would see a combined sports club as a way of ensuring survival or even startup in the case of AFLW.

Sthn. NSW is AF heartland
Three cheers for that statement.

female GR Club AF there should be a powerhouse
Why exactly ? it's very hot down there and populations are on the small side compared to northern NSW.
 

Canberra Pear

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Nov 26, 2016
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I think there will be a team in Canberra before there is a third team in Sydney. The next step as the giants get bigger would be to move to 11 games in Western Sydney.
Agreed. No point starting a third team in Sydney before GWS have even solidified the market.

Get Canberra in and GWS playing more home games. Then a few years later get a Victorian team dipping a toe to test interest in a third Sydney location (personally keen for it to be the Badgery's Creek aerotropolis). Not necessarily to relocate, just to gain interest before a new team comes .
 

Established1870

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Considering the growing population of NSW as a whole I think 4 teams should be the goal but I agree with the people above Canberra needs to come first and honestly I'd rather see North go there then GC or Tasmania. Capital city team with the Kangaroos moniker makes too much sense.
 

Canberra Pear

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Nov 26, 2016
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Considering the growing population of NSW as a whole I think 4 teams should be the goal but I agree with the people above Canberra needs to come first and honestly I'd rather see North go there then GC or Tasmania. Capital city team with the Kangaroos moniker makes too much sense.
Not meaning to jump on the 'Relocate North' train, but purely from a naming perspective, the alliteration of the Canberra Kangaroos is fantastic.

And they're bloody everywhere here. I regularly see a mob in my suburb.
 

Johnny Bananas

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Not meaning to jump on the 'Relocate North' train, but purely from a naming perspective, the alliteration of the Canberra Kangaroos is fantastic.

And they're bloody everywhere here. I regularly see a mob in my suburb.
Kinda sad they abandoned playing games in Canberra to chase the riches in the Gold Coast and Hobart. They had a good thing going. I suppose if North have a strategy, it might be to not stay in the one place too long lest the AFL push them until relocating. Or maybe it's just about the almighty dollar and always has been.
 

General Giant

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You guys have cost maybe $200 million since creation & still can't get a crowd. You'd need a NASA budget for a third
Must be doing something right to get a wanderbabies football fan all riled up to create a troll account and bag the sport incessantly.

But do continue it is funny watching you struggle. Your mob are based in the heartland of the sport in this country and draw tv ratings, barely, nationally what we do in Sydney?

And using your own argument about ratings only a fraction of them would be Wonderbabies.
 

Pippen94

Club Legend
Jun 12, 2019
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Must be doing something right to get a wanderbabies football fan all riled up to create a troll account and bag the sport incessantly.

But do continue it is funny watching you struggle. Your mob are based in the heartland of the sport in this country and draw tv ratings, barely, nationally what we do in Sydney?

And using your own argument about ratings only a fraction of them would be Wonderbabies.
Wanderers is a self sustaining club. Your team is propped up by Victoria punters & would fold if league ever pulled pin.
 

RedV3x

Club Legend
Dec 14, 2015
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You guys have cost maybe $200 million since creation.
Yes, isn't that fantastic that a club can repay such an investment.

still can't get a crowd.
Not the largest AFL crowd but bigger than soccer and some NRL crowds.
Remember that most NRL games in Sydney have the benefit of two local followings
making the Giants crowds even more impressive.

You'd need a NASA budget for a third.
Not a problem if the accounting adds up.
 

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