A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[NoobPie]

Wanderers is a franchise in very small and unpopular franchise competition. My franchise is propped up by a wealthy franchise owner and would fold if it was an actual club owned by members

Fixed!

 

[Seedsfan]

Maybe there is a little Pippen in all of us - a wishing and a hoping.
The difference is I've been there for the creation of a Sydney AFL team. I've witnessed two premierships for a Sydney team, the halcyon threepeat for Brisbane, the establishment of the Suns and the rise of GWS. I'm still waiting for a Dockers premiership - can't have everything.

In the meantime it must be terribly frustrating to be an Australian soccer fanatic with people constantly projecting the lofty potential of the game whilst dismissing the reality of the game. Soccer swapped their old reliable bike for a new bike that needs constant fixing and now the air has gone out of the tyres.

The same for rugby fans. Expansion and an international competition promised so much but poor long-term decisions and a Sydney-centric administration have left rugby in dire straits in Australia resulting in the poor performances of the wallabies.

I think the motto for NRL most NRL fans would be "what me worry". NRL fans should be frustrated and some are, but NRL seems to be able to bounce back from adversity like a ball bearing in a pinball machine. The S.O.O. might be rugby league's "high score" bit eventually those flamboyant flippers are going to miss completely.

Rugby will be right, finally cut the South African sides out of super rugby. Aus NZ and the pacific islands will provide the code with a marketable product. Also the World Cup and Lions tour will provide a lot of coin to the game

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Rugby will be right, finally cut the South African sides out of super rugby. Aus NZ and the pacific islands will provide the code with a marketable product. Also the World Cup and Lions tour will provide a lot of coin to the game

SA was the cash cow though, wasn’t it?

 

[Seedsfan]

SA was the cash cow though, wasn’t it?

No they weren’t, well they were pre 08. The economy there shat the bed massively in the GFC and they have struggled ever since

 

[theyellowsash]

will be the 4th team behind tas, nt, and wa team 3. and in all honesty, it will probably be a canberra team not a sydney team.

 

[RedV3x]

will be the 4th team behind tas, nt, and wa team 3. and in all honesty, it will probably be a canberra team not a sydney team.

Not a new Brisbane side playing out of the Olympic stadium?

 

[theyellowsash]

Not a new Brisbane side playing out of the Olympic stadium?

dont think qld has the capacity to support a 3rd team. the only reason i think NSW could is because it is so much bigger in population, but also because it is likely to be based in canberra so will have its own city (and regions) to itself. i dont think another sydney team is likely for a long time

 

[Bjo187]

Not a new Brisbane side playing out of the Olympic stadium?

Oh gee don't put the thought in Gills mind.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1.

Where's the "white-anting" ?

In my post #3488, I gave you details, quotes, & links of the white-anting of female Club AF in Sthn. NSW.
I also provided the additional details, quotes, & links of BF poster TWLS, who corroborated the white-anting.
As you have not responded specifically to this detailed information, I assume you consider the various examples confirm the white-anting.

I'm supposing netball was there before AFLW - therefore AFLW would be "white-anting" netball.

GR AF clubs etc. should be, but they are certainly not in sthn. NSW, AF heartland: they are obviously prioritising & protecting netball- see above.

Anyway, in non emotional terms you're saying netball and AFLW are competitors - a fair and logical assumption.
But are they ? I would imagine those sports are scheduled so players could participate in both

Of course the 2 sports are competitors.
Anecdotally, I have heard (2nd & 3rd hand sources) numerous reports from Melbourne parents of girls that many netball club coaches are telling parents & jnr females not to play AF, as they are likely to be injured; &, also, they claim many GR AF clubs have a "poor culture", re behaviour towards females.

As noted in post #3488, sthn.NSW AF clubs are scheduling their female teams only, to start their comps. in February, in the strong heat of summer!; & these comps. (unlike for males) go for only c.7 weeks. Sthn. NSW can often be very hot in Feb. & March! White-anting.

Why exactly ? it's very hot down there [Yes] and populations are on the small side [Irrelevant for heartland] compared to northern NSW.

As GR AF & the AFL are a powerhouse in sthn. NSW, the same should start to apply to female Club AF. Do you dispute this- if so, on what basis?
Yes, it is very hot- why schedule females to play Club AF, starting in summer?
(The Review did not claim there were insufficient ovals for females to play in an autumn/winter/ spring comp.).

GR AF in the Newcastle/Hunter & Wollongong/Illawarra regions, cf sthn. NSW GR AF, are certainly not heartland AF- yet they have 29 adult women's teams, cf 7 sthn NSW & teams! White-anting.

Considering the growing population of NSW as a whole I think 4 teams should be the goal but I agree with the people above Canberra needs to come first

I have never seen any realistic Business Case where a Canberra AFL club would be able to generate sufficient revenues to be competitive (at least $40m+ pa, in today's $; & assuming Manuka- upgraded to at least 25k+ min. seated- would be a peppercorn rental, with full food, beverage, & advertising rights going completely to the Canberra club; & most of the ticketing revenue).

How would the minimum $40m+ pa revenues be achieved?
(With due respect for the valid appeal of Canberra as city, it has nowhere near the magnificent beauty of Tas.'s forests/rivers/mountains/beaches/bays & other natural attractions; nor the captivating charm of Tas.'s historic buildings, ambience, & gourmet delights.
(ie Canberra would not get the approx. 100k pa winter footy tourists from Victoria etc., staying 3-7 days).

Theres only 8 leagues in Metro Melb with ave 10 teams each for Aussie Rules

No.
There are 9 adult AF leagues in Melb., with a huge no. of teams. VAFA is biggest, & has c. 11k adult male players (& c.3200 adult females). AF squads are also much bigger.

In Greater Sydney in 2020, as per my 2 links below, there are a total of 79 adult (including U20, U23, & Opens) GR male contact RL teams (in c. 40 RL clubs).
This is extraordinarily low in a RL "heartland" city of c. 5.35m, & is shocking. GR Male contact RL is collapsing in Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.- although it, also, is in a significant, long term male decline).

A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

Northern Beaches/North Shore is the right area for a new team. Not really, i would say Sydney wise Macarthur is the only area left. In saying that there is a club with a lot of history, 1 of the oldest in the state, and is one of the biggest grassroots clubs out there in the North Shore Bombers.

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post#3483)

Footy Developments in NSW and Queensland

Oh for sure, I think a lot of them do indeed fear the growth of footy in QLD, I mean 40 years ago in NQ you wouldnt have even heard anything about what was happening at Waverley of a Saturday, but now there a AFL games being played in Cairns and Townsville and kids up there actually playing the...

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post#467)








2. RA TO EXPERIENCE MAJOR REDUCTIONS IN RIGHTS' $ FROM 2020.
(cf pre 2020 Rights' $ earned by Aust. Super Rugby teams who played games in South Africa- which obtained high Rights' $ by being broadcast into European Prime Time, with big Euro ratings. Ditto Rugby Championship etc games involving Australia, played anywhere).

The ongoing financial stress experienced by RA (which will likely cause many top, but "lowly paid" Aust. Super Rugby players to leave Aust./possibly be unavailable for the Wallabies) will very likely cause a reduction in fan interest in elite RU in Australia, & further reduce male contact RU nos.

AF will continue to increase its market share in NSW, ACT, & Qld.

SMH/Brisbane Times P. Cully 26.2.21

Cully wrote

"Sports Rights experts, such as Melb.-based C. Smith of GMS, believes the eventual UK/Ireland (& European) deal will be as much as 50% less than the last one, which would effectively pull tens of millions of dollars (pa) out of the SANZAAR Unions...That's a far cry from the last deal, when the UK component (& other Euro countries) of the overall deal accounted for almost all of the uplift enjoyed by RA (Emphases, & words in brackets, mine)".

The broadcast party is over for Super Rugby. Here comes the hangover

SANZAAR didn’t quite get an Alan Bond deal in its last broadcast contract in the UK and Ireland but it wasn’t far off it. The next one will mirror reality.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

Rugby will be right, finally cut the South African sides out of super rugby. Aus NZ and the pacific islands will provide the code with a marketable product.

No-see my point 2 above.


Whist RA will benefit greatly from a British & Irish Lions Tour here, & if it obtains the next RU World Cup, these events will only temporarily reduce RA's severe & ongoing financial pressures (unless Wallabies win, reasonably regularly, against NZ, England, & South Africa).

 

[RedV3x]

Oh gee don't put the thought in Gills mind.

Qld supposedly has "preferred" IOC status because of "existing infrastructure" but the biggest ticket item has to be the Olympic stadium.
There are confusing statements coming out of Qld but any stadium seems to be within existing old boundaries.

 

[RedV3x]

In my post #3488, I gave you details, quotes, & links

and that in no way demonstrated "white-anting".

Anecdotally, I have heard numerous reports

and that would be more pronounced if the sports were separated.

NSW can often be very hot in Feb.

and thank you for backing up my point.

As GR AF & the AFL are a powerhouse in sthn. NSW, the same should apply to female Club AF.

why ? there is no logic in that statement at all. AFL is a powerhouse in Australia therefore it should be a powerhouse throughout the world - don't you agree ?

I have never seen any realistic Business Case where a Canberra AFL club would be able to generate sufficient revenues to be competitive

There have been many proposals over the decades. maybe you should stop looking for white ants.

GR Male contact RL is collapsing in Greater Sydney

What's that got to do with this thread ?

The ongoing financial stress experienced by RA will very likely cause a reduction in fan interest in elite RU in Australia, & further reduce contact male contact RL nos.

and logically increase the number of white ants.

Whist RA will benefit greatly from a British & Irish Lions Tour here, & if it obtains the next RU World Cup, these events will only temporarily reduce RA's severe & ongoing financial pressures

on obtaining white ants.

 

[Pippen94]

and that in no way demonstrated "white-anting".



and that would be more pronounced if the sports were separated.



and thank you for backing up my point.



why ? there is no logic in that statement at all. AFL is a powerhouse in Australia therefore it should be a powerhouse throughout the world - don't you agree ?



There have been many proposals over the decades. maybe you should stop looking for white ants.



What's that got to do with this thread ?



and logically increase the number of white ants.




on obtaining white ants.

I've been saying a lot of this for a long time!!

 

[RedV3x]

I've been saying a lot of

........

for a long time!!

 

[Pippen94]

........

You're battling two fronts. Never ends well

 

[RedV3x]

You're battling two fronts.

Are you saying that you are two-faced ?

 

[Freomaniac]

In NSW, " Gamblers across the State lost $2.17b to poker machines from June to November 2020, up 7% on the same period in 2019. Punters in Western Sydney lost the most cash...In Fairfield LGA, profits surged to $197m,...in Canterbury-Bankstown they hit $187m...In Blacktown, poker machine profits were up 16% to $96m, while in Penrith, they increased 11% to $68m...Western Sydney Clubs accounted for one third of NSW net poker machine profits in the second half of 2020".

NSW pokie profits surged amid COVID-19 pandemic, data reveals

Gamblers in NSW lost $2.17 billion to poker machines in clubs in the six months after the state's COVID-19 lockdown ended last year, a 7 per cent increase on the same period in 2019.

www.abc.net.au

"Chief Advocate For The Alliance For Gambling Reform, Reverend T. Costello, said while rates of gambling increase during times of crisis, these figures made it obvious the gambling industry is taking advantage of low income areas....
'This is the gambling industry preying on the poorest postcodes [Western Sydney] that is where the the pokies are most ubiquitous...'Why does NSW have 10% of the world's pokies' ".

Poker machine profit surges more than $2 billion during COVID | Savings.com.au

Poker machine profits surged during COVID-19 from gamblers on stimulus payments, leading advocates to call for greater reform.

www.savings.com.au

The NSW LNP govt. already has Lower House majority support for its proposed Pre-Commitment Of Losses Card- plus an Upper House majority to pass the new law (with support also from cross bench MP's).
This Card must be first obtained from the NSW govt. (the player will nominate their maximum pokie losses; the govt. law will ban totally cash being used on pokies; photo ID essential; & relatives of pokie addicts may apply to the govt. to have their addict relative banned from being issued the Card etc.).

The Card will slash the use & revenues of the vile poker machines (& pokie player losses) in NSW, & reduce greatly Pokie Club profits- & severely reduce funds going to NSW NRL Clubs.

Many NRL Clubs, to survive, have a very heavy reliance on affiliated Pokie Club funding- this slashing of funding will pose almost an existential threat on some NRL Clubs.

I suspect similar public pressure will be placed on other State govts. for similar legislation- including Qld. which will also have a major, negative impact on Qld. NRL Clubs.

I have to Admit, 2.17 Billion in pokies is a lot of money.

 

[Bjo187]

I have to Admit, 2.17 Billion in pokies is a lot of money.

Good law and long overdue.

 

[Rob]

I have to Admit, 2.17 Billion in pokies is a lot of money.

It's an extraordinary amount....roughly $300 for every person in NSW, including kids.
How many people even play pokies, 10%? So 3 grand in losses each. Remarkable.

 

[Freomaniac]

It's an extraordinary amount....roughly $300 for every person in NSW, including kids.
How many people even play pokies, 10%? So 3 grand in losses each. Remarkable.

Yeah I know crazy to think this time last season , unemployed people were on $580 a fortnight. Then the corona virus hit and people got an extra $550 a fortnight for a few months.

 

[TWLS]

1.
In my post #3488, I gave you details, quotes, & links of the white-anting of female Club AF in Sthn. NSW.
I also provided the additional details, quotes, & links of BF poster TWLS, who corroborated the white-anting.
As you have not responded specifically to this detailed information, I assume you consider the various examples confirm the white-anting.


GR AF clubs etc. should be, but they are certainly not in sthn. NSW, AF heartland: they are obviously prioritising & protecting netball- see above.


Of course the 2 sports are competitors.
Anecdotally, I have heard (2nd & 3rd hand sources) numerous reports from Melbourne parents of girls that many netball club coaches are telling parents & jnr females not to play AF, as they are likely to be injured; &, also, they claim many GR AF clubs have a "poor culture", re behaviour towards females.

As noted in post #3488, sthn.NSW AF clubs are scheduling their female teams only, to start their comps. in February, in the strong heat of summer!; & these comps. (unlike for males) go for only c.7 weeks. Sthn. NSW can often be very hot in Feb. & March! White-anting.


As GR AF & the AFL are a powerhouse in sthn. NSW, the same should start to apply to female Club AF. Do you dispute this- if so, on what basis?
Yes, it is very hot- why schedule females to play Club AF, starting in summer?
(The Review did not claim there were insufficient ovals for females to play in an autumn/winter/ spring comp.).

GR AF in the Newcastle/Hunter & Wollongong/Illawarra regions, cf sthn. NSW GR AF, are certainly not heartland AF- yet they have 29 adult women's teams, cf 7 sthn NSW & teams! White-anting.



I have never seen any realistic Business Case where a Canberra AFL club would be able to generate sufficient revenues to be competitive (at least $40m+ pa, in today's $; & assuming Manuka- upgraded to at least 25k- would be a peppercorn rental, with full food, beverage, & advertising rights going completely to the Canberra club; & most of the ticketing revenue).

How would the minimum $40m+ pa revenues be achieved?
(With due respect for the valid appeal of Canberra as city, it has nowhere near the magnificent beauty of Tas.'s forests/rivers/mountains/beaches/bays & other natural attractions; nor the captivating charm of Tas.'s historic buildings, ambience, & gourmet delights.
(ie Canberra would not get the approx. 100k pa winter footy tourists from Victoria etc., staying 3-7 days).



No.
There are 9 adult AF leagues in Melb., with a huge no. of teams. VAFA is biggest, & has c. 11k adult male players (& c.3200 adult females). AF squads are also much bigger.

In Greater Sydney in 2020, as per my 2 links below, there are a total of 79 adult (including U20, U23, & Opens) GR male contact RL teams (in c. 40 RL clubs).
This is extraordinarily low in a RL "heartland" city of c. 5.35m, & is shocking. GR Male contact RL is collapsing in Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.- although it, also, is in a significant, long term male decline).

A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

Northern Beaches/North Shore is the right area for a new team. Not really, i would say Sydney wise Macarthur is the only area left. In saying that there is a club with a lot of history, 1 of the oldest in the state, and is one of the biggest grassroots clubs out there in the North Shore Bombers.

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post#3483)

Footy Developments in NSW and Queensland

Oh for sure, I think a lot of them do indeed fear the growth of footy in QLD, I mean 40 years ago in NQ you wouldnt have even heard anything about what was happening at Waverley of a Saturday, but now there a AFL games being played in Cairns and Townsville and kids up there actually playing the...

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post#467)








2. RA TO EXPERIENCE MAJOR REDUCTIONS IN RIGHTS' $ FROM 2020.
(cf pre 2020 Rights' $ earned by Aust. Super Rugby teams who played games in South Africa- which obtained high Rights' $ by being broadcast into European Prime Time, with big Euro ratings. Ditto Rugby Championship etc games involving Australia, played anywhere).

The ongoing financial stress experienced by RA (which will likely cause many top, but "lowly paid" Aust. Super Rugby players to leave Aust./possibly be unavailable for the Wallabies) will very likely cause a reduction in fan interest in elite RU in Australia, & further reduce male contact RU nos.

AF will continue to increase its market share in NSW, ACT, & Qld.

SMH/Brisbane Times P. Cully 26.2.21

Cully wrote

"Sports Rights experts, such as Melb.-based C. Smith of GMS, believes the eventual UK/Ireland (& European) deal will be as much as 50% less than the last one, which would effectively pull tens of millions of dollars (pa) out of the SANZAAR Unions...That's a far cry from the last deal, when the UK component (& other Euro countries) of the overall deal accounted for almost all of the uplift enjoyed by RA (Emphases, & words in brackets, mine)".

The broadcast party is over for Super Rugby. Here comes the hangover

SANZAAR didn’t quite get an Alan Bond deal in its last broadcast contract in the UK and Ireland but it wasn’t far off it. The next one will mirror reality.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

No-see my point 2 above.


Whist RA will benefit greatly from a British & Irish Lions Tour here, & if it obtains the next RU World Cup, these events will only temporarily reduce RA's severe & ongoing financial pressures (unless Wallabies win, reasonably regularly, against NZ, England, & South Africa).

I will jump in here and support BBT regarding the white anting of female footy in Southern NSW on the Vic border.
The AFL House and AFL Victoria are very well aware of what is happening but choose to ignore the situation.
Currently there are several Clubs in the Riverina who have very longstanding deals/arrangements/attachments with Netball Clubs and do not wish to change those arrangements for Financial/Community reasons. This has resulted in slow/delayed/nil growth of Female Footy for several years but in last 2 years the inevitable growth is now occurring in our female game.
I have strong views on this why would you assist the enemy in Netball to grow a Female sport. Yeah I know some people will say but they are playing a sport in Netball - I say balderdash- Our game should come first always.
Long term it will not matter because Netball Australia recently said they are worried about trending lower participation in recent years. Our female game will keep growing despite the difficult market down there.

 

[Freomaniac]

The AFL is an Australian wide competition and that competition "props up" all 18 clubs with television rights, attendances, sponsorships, merchandise etc.
Soccer is propped up by private owners who regularly up stumps and leave when their cash flow is low.

The A-league was doing ok financially around that time between 2013-17 when the tv rights deal was 40 million a year and the salary cap was 2.5 million or 25 million for the 10 teams.

 

[RedV3x]

Currently there are several Clubs in the Riverina who have very longstanding deals/arrangements/attachments with Netball Clubs and do not wish to change those arrangements for Financial/Community reasons.

Very understandable but nobody has demonstrated that "this has resulted in slow/delayed/nil growth of female footy for several years"
especially when "in last 2 years the inevitable growth is now occurring in our female game".
.

 

[TWLS]

Very understandable but nobody has demonstrated that "this has resulted in slow/delayed/nil growth of female footy for several years"
especially when "in last 2 years the inevitable growth is now occurring in our female game".
.

Its a fact Red the guy who has no clue who on what BBT and I are talking about. Go and check the football clubs down there and then research the FEMALE teams down there.
Stick to your private group Red.
Nobody has to demonstrate anything to you.

 

[RedV3x]

Go and check the football clubs down there and then research the FEMALE teams down there.

You're the one making the statement. Where's the logical argument. You made a statement - now account for it.
Where's your research showing that Australian Football has suffered in it's relationship with netball.

Nobody has to demonstrate anything to you.

That's rich coming from someone who admonished me for not posting my "research".

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. SEN Radio G. Whateley program 3.3.21

Interviewed J. Halloran, a self-described RL fan (but who also said she admires RU, "cf other codes" for its relative lack of off-field behavioural problems), long time resident of Sydney, & a sports' journalist now with The Australian.

She is creating a new, permanent podcast series ("The Breakdown") on Business & Strategic issues of sports.
Her first 6 podcasts are on "The Fall of Rugby Union in Australia".

Halloran said (amongst many other comments that are concerning for RU & RL)

"Rugby clubs are dying in the suburbs & the bush".

"The advance of AFL in private schools up here in Sydney & Qld. is a real issue for RL & RU, this issue will be explored in Episodes 5 & 6"

"...anecdotally...some parents are [before enrolling their kids] first asking prospective private schools 'Do you have AFL?' ".

Full details in this link.

Footy Developments in NSW and Queensland

Can be done if they pick the right location. Not sure about the groundsman, but he can always be sacked and replaced by someone more pleasant.They already did that before the start of last season (sack the Australian Football hating former groundsman) - that's why the GABBA playing surface was...

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post#485)




2. I checked the Sydney Junior Rugby Union Annual Reports etc. for the details of club male contact RU teams & player nos.
The 2019 & 2020 Fixtures have been deleted from their website; & the 2019 Annual Report has, apparently, not been completed- it is not on the website! Can anyone advise these details here, for 2019 & 2020?

The SJRU 2018 Annual Report reveals, re club male contact teams:-
U15- 28 teams
U16- 18 "
U18- 6 "

https://www.sjru.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/sjru-annual-report-2018-web.pdf

(See pg 27)

This no. of 52 Greater Sydney-based club male contact teams, U15-U18 inclusive, is extraordinarily low for a RU "heartland" city of 5.15m in 2018; & drops considerably from U12.
I assume many of the U13 kids (& older) attend c. 20+ Sydney private schools, where RU is the strongest sport, & attracts the best athletes. School RU matches are usually on Sat., never Sunday.
The RU jnr club comps. in Sydney are played mainly on Sundays, with a small club jnr comp. also playing Fri. evenings.





3. Daily Telegraph J. Halloran 23.3.19

In this link, Halloran describes the significant decline of GR (male contact) RL in Sydney.

Footy Developments in NSW and Queensland

Can be done if they pick the right location. Not sure about the groundsman, but he can always be sacked and replaced by someone more pleasant.They already did that before the start of last season (sack the Australian Football hating former groundsman) - that's why the GABBA playing surface was...

www.bigfooty.com

(Scroll to my post #477)

Female contact RU (mainly 7's) & female contact RL (very often less than 13 per team) are both having significant growth in NSW, ACT, & Qld. since 2017 (both off a very low base, but very likely to continue). This female growth will help RU & RL clubs in many ways, including better fund raising, better networking, better culture etc.

Conversely, the male jnr & snr GR Club contact RL & RU long term significant decline in Aust. will, as they are both the direct competitors for AF, further aid the strong growth that is occuring for AF in NSW, ACT, & Qld.