A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

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Rob

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Interestingly, Swans reserves are playing home games across the road from the SCG at Lakeside oval. I assume there are some spectator and broadcast facilities there.
 

robbieando

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Me too.
But neglecting to upgrade the facilities and allow as many sports to participate is unsociable, uneconomic, wasteful and arrogant thinking
especially when all that is involved is re-aligning and lengthening the grassed area.
North Sydney Council has just finished spending $5 million on upgrades to NSO which seems to suggest that they think re-aligning the ground in the manner suggested is not worth the return you (and some others) seem to think it is.



Even if for some reason this was entertained down the road for a possible third team, the fact that you are removing a large chunk of the hill to realign the current oval to get an AFL standard sized oval would mean that the current 16,000 capacity would be cut close to around 10-12,000.

With limited room left to build upon to replace the lost capacity within the current foot print of NSO given the historical nature of parts of the oval (stands, gates and the figtree).

I can’t see the AFL looking at NSO as a viable venue for a third team.
 

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BringBackTorps

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1. M.Wood, raised in nthn. England, is a RL & soccer fan, & has recently moved to Sydney.

He writes for Forbes business magazine on sport, he is a deep thinker, with a good writing style.

In this article, he has some left-field ideas on how GR & semi-pro RL (& eventually, very beneficial for the NRL) can be revived in Sydney.
Newtown, in the 2nd tier RL NSW Cup, plays at Henson Park- & is very successful in getting some good crowds, & has some special "up market" reasonably priced street food days/craft beers at some games.







2. M. Wood Forbes 1.4.21

Re RU in Australia's "...fall into irrelevance was inexorable. It's not rugby league that's done it. It's Aussie Rules".

At his first ever game of AF ("...entertaining as it was... I don't know the rules") at the SCG recently, he observed the fan demographic, & said

"It's comfortably the poshest crowd I've ever been in. If you were wondering where the NSW Waratahs fans were, go to the Swans".

"[Re the relative positions of the AFL & NRL], they're both doing superbly well"!

 
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RedV3x

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Nah.
RU has fallen because of the decisions made by RU. Even the poaching between rugby codes has had little effect.
AFL continues to gain popularity de to an investment in hard work.
To go to one AFL match and declare it is full of ex-Waratahs is an example of the poorest journalism.
 

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Bjo187

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The last 2 articles on here about the increase in clubs in North Sydney and also the popularity of the swans being a richer type of audience further enforce my thinking that North Sydney playing out of North Sydney Oval should be the third team in Sydney. To be honest by the time it comes around it could be North Melbourne relocated up there as I don't think the competition would want to go past 20 teams. A nice balance would be 8 games at North Sydney Oval and three at Marvel Stadium so that on top of the away Victorian games they'd still retain a decent presence in Victoria for North fans.
 

BringBackTorps

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1. "Play On" Podcast was created to focus on GR AF in NSW & ACT, & podcast is created weekly.
This 9.4.21 episode has its 2 journalists interviewing S. Zikman, AFL/NSW Community Football Manager.

Zikman said, mainly paraphrasing:-

. In the 2021 Sydney FL (snr GR comp. for Greater Sydney) 8 new adult women's teams were created, & a new Div.4 Women's comp. has been introduced in 2021.
In the snr male SFL, "there's been good growth in the men's & U19's...big growth & big nos."
(Scroll to 4 mins. 20 secs.- 6 mins. 10 secs.).

. there has recently been a $2.8m redevelopment of Mike Kenny Oval (Greenway Park, Pennant Hills NW Syd.) & big, new club rooms, 2 canteens, new female facilitities etc.
Scroll to 6 mins.20 secs- 6 mins. 30 secs.

. re pathways, "AF has the best pathways" in NSW & ACT; "RL, it's so unpredictible, have to go here & there (?), soccer so political (?). Swans have spent $10m of their own money (on their Academies)".
Scroll to 15 mins 10 secs. -16 mins. 30 secs.

. "jnr [AF] participation & jnr Leagues keep on growing [in NSW/ACT], ...the State is on the up. There will be a lot more talent [Swans & GWS Academy players being drafted into the AFL] coming through".
Scroll to 25 mins. 5 secs. -25 mins. 45 secs.








2. Details of the new $2.7m, Federal funded, pavilion, club rooms etc. at Greenway Park & Mike Kenny Oval (AF) in Pennant Hills, opened 30.3.21.
In winter, these facilities are shared by Pennant Hills Snr AFC & Pennant Hills Cherrybrook Stags JRLC (& probably the Athletics Club & Netball Club).


At Greenway Park, the Westbrook JAFC VASTLY outnumber their co-tenant Pennant Hills Cherrybrook Stags jnr contact RL nos.- where contact RL is only able to continue to U12. (No snr RL club is based there).








3. Also, at a different oval- Ern Holmes oval- where the AFL will contribute $75K

From the 2019 paywall teaser
"Almost $1m has been secured for the development of a new Club House (at Ern Holmes Oval, for Pennant Hills JAFC) for hundreds of junior AFL players in booming north west Sydney Club".


Pennant Hills Demons Juniors secure new clubhouse with $1M funding
Matt Kean MP and the Pennant Hills Demons AFL Club


Hornsby state Liberal MP Matt Kean said the major upgrade of facilities at Ern Holmes Oval — which he revealed exclusively with the Advocate — would include new change rooms, umpires rooms, three female and male toilets, storage, two canteens, community and office space.

The full article by Jake McCallum can be read on The Hornsby Advocate

(This Daily Telegraph/Hornsby Advocate article is behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here please)







4. SMH V. Rugari 17.4.21

"Australian Rules Football Is Booming In Sydney".

V. Rugari, a soccer fan, & soccer journalist for 15+ years said:-

. GR AF is booming all over Sydney.

. "In northern Sydney & around the city", GR AF is very strong, & quotes AFLNSW/ACT regd. nos., where it has grown by "almost 200%" in the last 10 years.

. GR AF & the AFL's growth has been mainly at the expense of RU. (but he didn't mention that GR male contact RL nos. have collapsed in northern Sydney & the Nthn. Beaches).

. quoting rubbery AusPlay survey nos. for 2019 in NSW, GR AF has overtaken RU, with c. 71k GR AF club snr. nos., cf c.53k GR RU club snr nos.












EDIT:








EDIT 2:
Re 2 posts below Bowakawa Present Not Past, neither the AFL, nor virtually anyone, are suggesting a 3rd AFL club should be established in Sydney in the near future. Also, most on BF want Tas. to be the 19th club- as I do, hopefully c. 2025.

GWS attracts far more $ for the AFL (in extra Rights' $ for the 9th game, private sponsor $ for GWS, value of related Council & govt. funding for GWS & GR facilities, value off vast increase in NSW & ACT regd. GR nos., value of extra MSM coverage for the AFL in NSW & ACT etc.) than the amount the AFL contributes to GWS.

Only after GWS has regular lockout crowds at Giants' Stadium would it become very likely a 3rd club would be established. Sydney is far too big (ABS estimates an 8.5m pop. in 2050), too influential & too wealthy/powerful to have only 2 Clubs.

I doubt the NT will ever obtain its own AFL club due to being inaffordable on its own- but may be part of a combined northern tropics club (playing most games in Cairns & Townsville, with a few in Darwin & NT- as E. McGuire suggested recently).
 
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NoobPie

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GWS is a 30 year plan right? And they've so far spent 10 years operating at a loss? - correct me if either of those statements are false.
The second is certainly a fact. Don't know if the Giants are a 30 year plan or something longer

Agree with any insinuation that a third should not be added in Sydney while the Giants are still struggling commercially
 

BringBackTorps

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The NSW North Coast AF comp. covers the area from Port Macquarie (north of Newcastle)- Lismore.
(From Byron Bay, which is strong for AF, to the Qld. border- "the Northern Rivers" area- those clubs play in the southern Gold Coast comp.).

The North Coast was, until c.1980, a very barren area for AF, & had virtually no AF presence. From its emergence in 1980, however, GR AF had been growing very slowly up until c. 2017- from then, the North Coast FL is now having strong growth.

North Coast FL
2021 U11 boys- 8 teams (2020 8 teams)
2021 U13 boys- 10 " (2020- 9 ")
2021 U15 boys- 7 " (2018- 4 ")
2021 U17 boys- 4 " (2020- 3 ")

2021 U18 Youth Girls- 5 teams (2019-5 teams. 2016-nil teams)
The challenge now is to introduce jnr girls' teams.

2021 snr comp.- 24 teams in 3 Grades (2017- 10 snr teams; & no adult women's teams in 2017)
ie 13 men's teams- not inc. 4 U17 teams; & 7 women's teams- not inc. U18 Youth Girls. (2020, 9 & 3 adult teams respectively).

2021 North Coast AF League has 1100+ snr & jnr club male & female players (2015- 500 snr & jnr club players)
In addition to these North Coast FL 1100+ club players, 5-9 y.o. boys & girls in North Coast club Auskick would probably add a further c. 300 players.

GR Club AF now has a good presence, & is very likely to become much stronger in the next decade. AF is also being played widely in primary & secondary govt. & private schools.



40th season set to be biggest and best yet!
Author Name: pault | Posted 11:00 am on Tuesday 6th April, 2021



"AFL North Coast is celebrating its 40th season in style, doubling its Senior Men’s competition to eight (Firsts, not inc. Reserves) teams, whilst the Women’s competition grows from three teams to seven.

In the Senior Men’s, Lismore Swans and Casino Lions are new to the league in 2021, whilst Northern Beaches Blues and Nambucca Valley Lions have been promoted from Reserve grade. All squads are looking to topple reigning premiers, the Grafton Tigers.

In the Women’s Grade, Port Macquarie Magpies return after a 12 month break, Lismore Swans are new to the League, and both Grafton Tigers and Nambucca Valley Lions will field teams for the first time. Coffs Harbour Breakers are aiming to be the first team to claim back to back premierships but know that the other six teams are all gunning for them.

To view the season launch video please click here.

Community Football and Competition Manager for AFL North Coast, Paul Taylor, said clubs are looking forward to a larger playing cohort in 2021.

In addition to the Senior Men’s and Women’s divisions, the Reserve Grade competition will comprise five teams, whilst Under 17 sees the return of Port Macquarie Magpies to increase team numbers to four. To add variety to the Under 17 competition, teams will engage in “cross conference” style fixtures and will each play three matches against teams from AFL North West (New England is c.200 kms away for some teams!).

More than 1,100 women, men, girls and boys play in the AFL North Coast league. This has grown from 500 over the past six years, highlighting the ongoing popularity of the game. In 2021, the Senior Competition will feature 24 teams, which represents incredible growth considering that in 2017 just 10 teams competed across the three grades".



Junior age group profile: Youth Girls
Author Name: pault | Posted 5:37 pm on Thursday 15th April, 2021


"With the start of the[North Coast] Junior competition just three days away we take a look at the newest age group – Youth Girls.

How is 2021 shaping up?
The Youth Girls age group will have five teams competing in 2021 which sees it return to the pre-COVID levels of 2018 and 2019.

Youth Girls footy is one of the fastest growing age groups in our region and throughout the state with girls attracted by the physicality, fitness, & welcoming attitude of people in club land.

The teams
  • Bellingen Bulldogs
  • Coffs Harbour Breakers
  • Grafton Tigers
  • Port Macquarie Magpies
  • Sawtell Toormina Saints (words in brackets, & emphases, mine)".



The strong growth of AF in NSW/ACT, above the Riverina AF heartland, in all parts of NSW (current population, inc. ACT, c. 8.6m) adds further impetus for a 3rd AFL club to, eventually, be added to Sydney.
 
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BringBackTorps

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1. The Northern Beaches FC (formerly called Woolgoolga Blues FC) is at Woolgoolga, 25kms north of Coffs Harbour- playing in the NSW Mid North Coast FL.

It is having built (opposite Woolgoolga High School, which will also use its facilities- & almost certainly funnel more young AF players to NBFC!) probably the best & most expensive GR (any code) sporting club house & facilities in Australia: its new base will cost $23m, to be completed 2023. It is palatial.
I assume the big growth in female (& male) AF in the North Coast FL since 2017 has had a significant impact on the decision to build these luxurious GR AF facilities.

"Work ramps up on Blues new home
Author Name: bradgreenshields | Posted 11:29 am on Wednesday 28th April, 2021
TAGS: NORTHERN BEACHES BLUESWIIGULGA SPORTS COMPLEXWOOLGOOLGA

An artist's impression of some of the facilities being constructed at the Wiigulga Sports Complex in Woolgoolga. Image: Coffs Harbour City Council
THE Northern Beaches Blues are moving closer at a rapid rate toward moving to their new home ground in Woolgoolga.

The Blues are likely to be playing home games at the Wiigulga Sports Complex from 2023 now that the amount of work being done on the site west of Solitary Islands Way, opposite Woolgoolga High School, is kicking into gear.

Construction of the $23.1 million project is expected to be completed late next year.

The project includes:

  • West Woolgoolga Playing Fields: to cater to AFL, Cricket, with tournament overlay for Touch Football as well as multi use fields, including lighting, drainage and amenities.
  • Northern Beaches Multi-Purpose Centre: two indoor courts (Basketball and Netball), stage, kitchen, multi-purpose rooms, amenities.
  • Civil works including roadways, shared pathways, carparks and services.
Member for Coffs Harbour Gurmesh Singh said he was proud this exciting project has been owned and driven every step of the way by the local Woolgoolga community.

“This new complex is a game changer for the Coffs Coast and I look forward to seeing this dynamic precinct come to life.”







2. The private North Coast Academy Of Sport (funded by Southern Cross Uni. Lismore, & NSW State govt.) has introduced female-only AF (training in the off season) to its suite of sports, to develop young athletes on the North Coast.
Interestingly, & perhaps surprisingly, soccer, tennis, RL, & RU are not included at the Academy.


''Bumper AFLW squad for NCAS
Author Name: pault | Posted 10:44 am on Friday 27th November, 2020


The North Coast Academy of Sport (NCAS) has announced its 2020/2021 AFLW squad with a record number of girls selected.

Reflecting the rapid growth of Youth Girls footy on the North Coast, this year’s AFLW squad has almost doubled against the previous year’s, with 28 girls set to take part across the off season.

NCAS Head Coach Alana Hanson is excited to work with the new squad. “It’s great to see the numbers growing as more and more girls take up club footy. Just as importantly, it also means that the skill levels and playing standard that we have to work with are higher each year so I can’t wait to get started with this talented group of girls.”

In addition to AFL specific training sessions, the NCAS program offers athletes support in areas such as sport science, nutrition, and other education sessions.

The NCAS squad will take part in the Academy games in April which will form a key part of the selection process for both the NSW/ACT Under 16 and Under 18 state teams.

“The program is a great chance for the girls to learn about and build upon all aspects of their sporting performance, whilst also placing them in the eye of state selectors to be considered for a state team to compete at the national championships,” Hanson said".








3. GR AF did not exist on the mid North Coast until c. 1980. The first ever AF match, an exhibition game, in the area was in 1977- when the legendary game occured in the middle of Coffs Harbour racecourse, & tree saplings were cut down, then erected, to make the rough "goal posts".
Twelve local North Coast players were found (plus some ring-ins to make a full team). They played students from the Uni. of New England, Armadale, 200kms away- the only opponents they could find!

GR AF jnr & snr club & school comp. nos. on the mid North Coast -Nambucca Heads to Lismore only- now surpass GR RL jnr & snr Club & school comp. contact nos. in that area of the mid North Coast.
Sawtell RLC, Nambucca RLC, & Orara Valley RLC, on the mid North Coast, are not fielding senior contact teams in 2021, due to lack of nos.



Due to the huge population of NSW/ACT, c. 8.6m in 2021, & the strong growth of AF in NSW/ACT, it is almost inevitable there will be a 3rd AFL club in the next 20 years- IMO, probably sooner, & probably a combined southern Sydney/ACT club (playing home games, c.50/50, in both areas)
 
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Pippen94

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1. The Northern Beaches FC (formerly called Woolgoolga FC) is at Woolgoolga, 25kms north of Coffs Harbour- playing in the NSW Mid North Coast FL.

It is having built (opposite Woolgoolga High School, which will also use its facilities- & almost certainly funnel more young AF players to NBFC!) probably the best & most expensive GR (any code) club sporting club house & facilities in Australia: cost $23m, to be completed 2023.

The facilities will include new playing fields, & will be shared by AF, cricket & touch rugby- and also include an indoor basketball & indoor netball court. It is palatial.
I assume the big growth in female (& male) AF in the North Coast FL since 2017 has had a significant impact on the decision to build these luxurious GR facilities.

Work ramps up on Blues new home
Author Name: bradgreenshields | Posted 11:29 am on Wednesday 28th April, 2021
TAGS: NORTHERN BEACHES BLUESWIIGULGA SPORTS COMPLEXWOOLGOOLGA

An artist's impression of some of the facilities being constructed at the Wiigulga Sports Complex in Woolgoolga. Image: Coffs Harbour City Council
THE Northern Beaches Blues are moving closer at a rapid rate toward moving to their new home ground in Woolgoolga.

The Blues are likely to be playing home games at the Wiigulga Sports Complex from 2023 now that the amount of work being done on the site west of Solitary Islands Way, opposite Woolgoolga High School, is kicking into gear.

Construction of the $23.1 million project is expected to be completed late next year.

The project includes:

  • West Woolgoolga Playing Fields: to cater to AFL, Cricket, with tournament overlay for Touch Football as well as multi use fields, including lighting, drainage and amenities.
  • Northern Beaches Multi-Purpose Centre: two indoor courts (Basketball and Netball), stage, kitchen, multi-purpose rooms, amenities.
  • Civil works including roadways, shared pathways, carparks and services.
Around 15 local sub-contractors were on site today performing all manner of works under the eye of Lahey Constructions Pty. Ltd which is the principal contractor for the construction of the Sports Complex.

Member for Coffs Harbour Gurmesh Singh said he was proud this exciting project has been owned and driven every step of the way by the local Woolgoolga community.

“The building design reflects our local Indigenous heritage as well as the multicultural mix of the Northern Beaches,” Mr Singh said.

“This new complex is a game changer for the Coffs Coast and I look forward to seeing this dynamic precinct come to life.”

Coffs Harbour City Council Mayor Councillor Denise Knight said the Woolgoolga project has been a community-led and community-focused project from its very beginnings.

“I’m delighted to see that so many local tradies and businesses will be working on the build and fit-out. This is a great example of how major stimulation projects are vital for the local economy as we continue to recover from the pandemic.

“I’m also delighted to see how the Indigneous name for the Wiigulga Sports Complex has been embraced and celebrated by all.

“Huge congratulations must go to everyone involved in this project, in particular the tireless community working group led by Alastair Milroy.”





2. The private North Coast Academy Of Sport (funded by Southern Cross Uni. & NSW State govt.) has introduced AF to its suite of sports, to develop young athletes on the North Coast.
Interestingly, & perhaps surprisingly, soccer, RL, & RU are not included at the Academy.






3. GR AF did not exist on the mid North Coast until c. 1980. The first ever AF match, an exhibition game, in the area was in 1977- when the legendary game occured in the middle of Coffs Harbour golf course, & tree saplings were cut down, then erected, to make the "goal posts".
Twelve local North Coast players were found (plus some ring-ins to make a full team). They played students from the Uni. of New England, Armadale, 200kms away- the only opponents they could find!

GR club & school comp. nos. on the mid North Coast now surpass GR Club & school comp. contact RL nos. on the Mid North Coast.







Due to the huge population of NSW/ACT, c. 9m in 2021, & the strong growth of AF in NSW/ACT, it is inevitable there will be a 3rd AFL club in the next 20 years- IMO, probably sooner, & probably a combined southern Sydney/ACT club (playing home games in both areas)
Canberra can half games for two clubs - equal one
 

RedV3x

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Sawtell RLC, Nambucca RLC, & Orara Valley RLC, on the mid North Coast, are not fielding senior contact teams in 2021, due to lack of nos.
So the three possible reasons are:
1. General demise of country towns.
2. An impact of Covid19.
3. Numbers dropping below a critical mass due to generational changes.
AFL was never going to convert NRL fans but get them earlier enough before they make choices and that's working.
in the same way NRL is never going to convert AFL fans - it takes much more than exhibition matches.
 

BringBackTorps

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NRL dual Premiership coach W. Ryan, on 9.4.21, laments the long term decline of GR male contact RL nos.- saying this has caused the elite talent pool to drop in the NRL, directly contributing to an unacceptable level of blowout scores & too many uncompetitive, lower tier NRL teams.


The NRL comp. appears trapped in a downward & seemingly inevitable vortex of a long term, significant decline in GR male contact RL nos., uncompetitive NRL teams (odd, as there is a salary cap), & a general decline in NRL skills.
(Female contact RL nos., however, are having significant growth, off a small base).

This decline in skills will eventually cause the NRL to have lower crowds/ratings/MSM coverage/Rights $, & sponsorship $.
There is a strong chance, therefore, that the AFL will be able to capitalise in NSW & Qld. on the NRL's shallow talent pool, & will be able to increase the AFL's popularity.
 
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