A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

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BringBackTorps

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1. Gore Hill Oval (Lower North Shore- & home of the mighty North Shore Bombers who have 14 adult teams!) has, by necessity, a synthetic surface.
Gore Hill Oval also has 38 jnr & snr AF teams regularly playing on it (& a lot of grazed knees).

AFAIK, no AF ground, anywhere in Australia, has ever had 38 teams regularly playing, fortnightly, on the 1 ground, over a Thur. & Fri. evening, Sat. & Sun.








The Gore Hill Oval area has "...a further $40m of facility development forecast over the next decade" (A large % on an indoor GR stadium).


The strong growth of AF, obviously, is a main driving force of these large GR expenditures, & rejuvenation.






2.
So no evidence and you are looking at just names. [You are incorrect]
Now is there any reason why you cannot have made this a separate thread ?
It bears no relation #1, In fact you have numbered them #1 and #2.

I have provided, above, 5 examples of the strong anecdotal evidence (& not just analysis of surnames) supporting the claim that persons of anglo celtic background are over represented, per capita, in GR AF in Greater Sydney. And looking at surnames is, obviously, very relevant to this discussion!

You have provided no evidence &/or links to dispute my claim. I assume you have none.
(Your SMH recent link reinforces my claim: note the specifically mentioned Asian, Middle Eastern, continental Euro etc. groups being targetted by the AFL- & their absence in lists of surnames of players born/deriving from Greater Sydney. These diverse groups comprise a significant proportion of Greater Sydney residents).

The relevance of this issue is that, for AF to grow in Sydney, it must seek many more players & fans etc. from Sydney's very large & diverse multicultural population.
 
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RedV3x

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I have provided, above, 5 examples of the strong anecdotal evidence

Anecdotal evidence is an OXYMORON - it's an anecdote NOT evidence.

You have provided no evidence &/or links to dispute my claim. I assume you have none.

You just contradicted yourself with

.Your SMH recent link

FFS until someone comes up with a comprehensive survey you're just pissing into the wind.

Now is there any reason why you BBT cannot have made this a separate thread ?
 

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RedV3x

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AFAIK, no AF ground, anywhere in Australia, has ever had 38 teams regularly playing, fortnightly, on the 1 ground, over a Thur. & Fri. evening, Sat. & Sun.

Yes. it's deplorable how the government has ignored the demands of a strong community sport.
It would have been easier to share North Sydney Oval.

Now is there any reason why you cannot have made this a separate thread ?
 

Cubs2Lions

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Tasmania and Canberra should be absolute musts for any further AFL expansion but if Sydney was to get another team it should be the Central Coast/Newcastle or perhaps Wollongong.

On SM-G781B using BigFooty.com mobile app
Agree on the fact that Tasmania & Canberra should be the 19th & 20th team respectfully in the Men's - Women's AFL Competitions in the distant future.

However, when the AFL does decide on NSW 3 being the best option for expansion of the AFL Competitions, you would reckon they would locate the club in the North Sydney region and play a couple of matches in Newcastle & Central Coast each year to build support and participation rates of the sport in those areas, while either Sydney or even Western Sydney (once Canberra is a full-time entity) play the odd game or two over in Wollongong for example.

Personally though, I feel like the AFL's main aim & objective of expansion in the NSW region for its Men's - Women's Competition atm would be to have one club be based in each of the corners of New South Wales (N/E/S/W) + Canberra/ACT over the next 40 to 50 years, before deciding on if it is viable to expand the sporting code on a professional level to moderate cities (Central Coast | Newcastle | Wollongong | etc.) around New South Wales.
 

Canberra Pear

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I’d actually like to see the North Sydney Bears make a play for AFL team 21.

The Bears got shafted from the NRL 20 years ago and there’s been a constant push to get them back in. They're still in the NSW Cup, but its unlikely they’ll get back in at NRL level. It would be a good FU from the Bears, and capitalise on the hotspot of Aussie Rules in Sydney.

They’ve already got a pre-made fanbase and leagues club. And they’re already based at North Sydney Oval, which is the only venue that could realistically host a North Sydney AFL team (with some reconfiguration).

The Brisbane Bears’ name hasn’t been used in 25 years (and they were only around for 10 years), so there probably wouldn’t be too much opposition to North Sydney using it.
 

RedV3x

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Agree on the fact that Tasmania & Canberra should be the 19th & 20th team respectfully in the Men's - Women's AFL Competitions in the distant future.

Even AFLW teams BEFORE AFL teams would help set the scene.
 

RedV3x

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I’d actually like to see the North Sydney Bears make a play for AFL team 21.

North Sydney has always had Australian Football representation since 1903.
The Sydney Swans picked up good support from there when they came along.
When the North Sydney Bears where removed from the NSWRL that did highlight the Swans as an option
and that has helped the long term growth of Australian Football North of the harbour.
A North-of-the-harbour AFL team would cannibalize the Swans IMO.
 

Rob

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I’d actually like to see the North Sydney Bears make a play for AFL team 21.

The Bears got shafted from the NRL 20 years ago and there’s been a constant push to get them back in. They're still in the NSW Cup, but its unlikely they’ll get back in at NRL level. It would be a good FU from the Bears, and capitalise on the hotspot of Aussie Rules in Sydney.

They’ve already got a pre-made fanbase and leagues club. And they’re already based at North Sydney Oval, which is the only venue that could realistically host a North Sydney AFL team (with some reconfiguration).

The Brisbane Bears’ name hasn’t been used in 25 years (and they were only around for 10 years), so there probably wouldn’t be too much opposition to North Sydney using it.

I'd say a couple of things about this:
By aligning to an existing team, you're limiting support to that team's supporters. The AFL couldn't afford to do that when it would need to have much broader reach. We saw what a failure that strategy can be with the Carlton, Collingwood and Parramatta soccer teams.

The other is that I suspect the reason the Bears aren't currently in the NRL is that they had a small support base, even by NRL standards. Even if you were to capture 100% of their fans, it's still a woefully small AFL club.

Nothing wrong with looking at a team in that area long term, but I wouldn't call it the North Sydney Bears.
 

RedV3x

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By aligning to an existing team, you're limiting support to that team's supporters.

As in Port Adelaide. Interesting to see what happens with the Redciiffe Dolphins.

We saw what a failure that strategy can be with the Carlton, Collingwood and Parramatta soccer teams.

But a success with the AFLW. The failure of soccer franchises was more about cross-representation.

The other is that I suspect the reason the Bears aren't currently in the NRL is that they had a small support base, even by NRL standards. Even if you were to capture 100% of their fans, it's still a woefully small AFL club.

The North Sydney Bears NSWRL were popular but unsupported. The demise of the club happened a long time ago
and any fallout has long since gone. Nobody would seriously consider trying to attract their old fans.

Nothing wrong with looking at a team in that area long term, but I wouldn't call it the North Sydney Bears.

No, you'd probably go with the North Shore Bears after the 1902 founding club,.
The North Shore Bears are now known as the North Shore Bombers after linking up with Essendon.
 

The_Wookie

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I'd say a couple of things about this:
By aligning to an existing team, you're limiting support to that team's supporters. The AFL couldn't afford to do that when it would need to have much broader reach.

This is exactly the reasoning for the Suns, not the Sharks being in the league.

We saw what a failure that strategy can be with the Carlton, Collingwood and Parramatta soccer teams.

But it is apparently working with the Pies and Giants netball. and is working for the AFLW - mostly leveraged heavily off existing support structures.
 

Rob

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But it is apparently working with the Pies and Giants netball. and is working for the AFLW - mostly leveraged heavily off existing support structures.

Big difference - netball teams only need a couple of thousand through the gates so limiting yourself to Collingwood supporters isn't necessarily a bad thing. And no one really dislikes GWS in western Sydney, so the Giants aren't going to alienate many people in netball in their target zone.

I'd imagine most Sydneysiders have an NRL team, even if it's only very passively followed. IMO a North Sydney Bears AFL club will rule most of them out.
 

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BringBackTorps

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1. GWS & Sydney have started an elite Women's Summer Series comp., from 5.2.22-12.3.22- which will become an annual, elite summer comp.
I assume it will be played, in future years, from December (when the AFLW will commence).

The best 120 women (not selected for AFLW matches) in NSW & ACT will play in 4 teams, against the other 3 teams- & it also provides opportunities for these women who were not selected for their respective GWS & Swans teams to get crucial match practice etc.


The Swans don't commence in the AFLW until December 2022.
Amazingly, however, their AFLW membership now, at 3501, surpasses AFLW membership of all the other 17 clubs!

This bodes very well for the AFLW in Sydney; & for the already strong female GR AF growth to be turbocharged in Sydney.







2.
Anecdotal evidence is an OXYMORON - it's an anecdote NOT evidence.
No, anecdotal evidence is evidence- but how much weight it should be given requires judgement on a range of issues.

You challenged the 5 areas of strong anecdotal evidence I provided that persons from an anglo-celtic background are overrepresented in GR AF in Greater Sydney- yet you have provided no evidence of any type, despite my requests, to contradict this.
If you have any contrary information or evidence, why do you continue to fail to provide it?


You just contradicted yourself with
No- your SMH "multicultural" link (illustrating ethnicities where GR AF is very weak), as previously explained by me, actually reinforces my comments.

Furthermore, by not quoting my full sentence etc., you misrepresented what I said.

FFS until someone comes up with a comprehensive survey you're just pissing into the wind.
No- analysis of surnames of team lists of GR AF teams is useful & relevant evidence on ethnic origins of players; ditto the demographics of NS & ES, where GR AF is FAR stronger than WS.

Now is there any reason why you BBT cannot have made this a separate thread ?

No need.

The topic of the per capita underrepresentation of persons from a non anglo-celtic background in AF in Greater Sydney is very relevant to this Thread, since Sydney is a very multicultural city.
Increasing multicultural popularity of AF will greatly assist in Sydney, eventually, having a 3rd AFL club.
 
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RedV3x

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anecdotal evidence is evidence- but how much weight it should be given requires judgement on a range of issues.

I give absolutely NO WEIGHT WHATSOEVER to one person's look at a incredibly small subject sample.
End of story. Move on.

Now is there any reason why you BBT cannot have made this a separate thread ?
 

TWLS

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1. GWS & Sydney have started an elite Women's Summer Series comp., from 5.2.22-12.3.22- which will become an annual, elite summer comp.
I assume it will be played, in future years, from December (when the AFLW will commence).

The best 120 women (not selected for AFLW matches) in NSW & ACT will play in 4 teams, against the other 3 teams- & it also provides opportunities for these women who were not selected for their respective GWS & Swans teams to get crucial match practice etc.


The Swans don't commence in the AFLW until December 2022.
Amazingly, however, their AFLW membership now, at 3501, surpasses AFLW membership of all the other 17 clubs!

This bodes very well for the AFLW in Sydney; & for the already strong female GR AF growth to be turbocharged in Sydney.







2.

No, anecdotal evidence is evidence- but how much weight it should be given requires judgement on a range of issues.

You challenged the 5 areas of strong anecdotal evidence I provided that persons from an anglo-celtic background are overrepresented in GR AF in Greater Sydney- yet you have provided no evidence of any type, despite my requests, to contradict this.
If you have any contrary information or evidence, why do you continue to fail to provide it?



No- your SMH "multicultural" link (illustrating ethnicities where GR AF is very weak), as previously explained by me, actually reinforces my comments.

Furthermore, by not quoting my full sentence etc., you misrepresented what I said.


No- analysis of surnames of team lists of GR AF teams is useful & relevant evidence on ethnic origins of players; ditto the demographics of NS & ES, where GR AF is FAR stronger than WS.



No need.

The topic of the per capita underrepresentation of persons from a non anglo-celtic background in AF in Greater Sydney is very relevant to this Thread, since Sydney is a very multicultural city.
Increasing multicultural popularity of AF will greatly assist in Sydney, eventually, having a 3rd AFL club.
Replying to the recent AFLW comments above from Kylie Rogers at the AFL.
Her comments earlier this year about potential and current Sponsors spoke about the considerable interest in the AFLW when approached by the AFL.
In fact I also recall that more companies with interests in the female areas of the commercial market had approached her how to get involved.
What is very interesting is that this appears to have flowed on to the fans of the Womens game. It appears that we - The Game - have a winner going forward into the future despite the fact that other Womens Sports have had a longer presence in the Australian sports market.
 

BringBackTorps

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There were no jnr GR AF clubs anywhere in New England, NW NSW, until 1997- AF has had significant growth since then.

Glen Innes district, pop. c. 6400 & 60kms from Armidale, had no GR AF until 2016- when an Auskick centre was formed, with 30 kids appearing at its first clinic .
(Its 2016 creator, A. Harvey, now coaches the Glen Innes Celts JFC, & sometimes wears a kilt at games!).

Glen Innes JFC has progressively added new teams, & more male & female players each year- the highest Division is now U17's.

 
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TWLS

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There were no jnr GR AF clubs anywhere in New England, NW NSW, until 1997- AF has had significant growth since then.

Glen Innes district, pop. c. 6400 & 60kms from Armidale, had no GR AF until 2016- when an Auskick centre was formed, with 30 kids appearing at its first clinic .
(Its 2016 creator, A. Harvey, now coaches the Glen Innes Celts JFC, & sometimes wears a kilt at games!).

Glen Innes JFC has progressively added new teams, & more male & female players each year- the highest Division is now U17's.

Great article BBT. Keep up the good work ferreting all this stuff out.
 

RedV3x

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There were no jnr GR AF clubs anywhere in New England, NW NSW, until 1997- AF has had significant growth since then.

Glen Innes district, pop. c. 6400 & 60kms from Armidale, had no GR AF until 2016- when an Auskick centre was formed, with 30 kids appearing at its first clinic .
(Its 2016 creator, A. Harvey, now coaches the Glen Innes Celts JFC, & sometimes wears a kilt at games!).

Glen Innes JFC has progressively added new teams, & more male & female players each year- the highest Division is now U17's.


This demonstrates that development is never uniform or linear. There will be places that are left behind or charge ahead.
This does demonstrate one of my mantra's that real opportunity drives development.
Congratulations to these pioneers.
 
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Bjo187

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Anyone that has read 'code wars' which is a great book mind you, will see north sydney is there for the taking. The lowest like for nrl across sydney and no nrl club representing an area of over 1 million people. The afl would be silly not to have it as a top priority post tasmania and canberra.
 

Cubs2Lions

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Anyone that has read 'code wars' which is a great book mind you, will see north sydney is there for the taking. The lowest like for nrl across sydney and no nrl club representing an area of over 1 million people. The afl would be silly not to have it as a top priority post tasmania and canberra.
Personally, I can see the AFL going with Northern Sydney (NSW3) & Perth (WA3) as the next main expansion targets of the AFL in the late 2030s/early 2040s era, once Tasmania & Canberra receive a license in the AFL Men's/Women's Competitions this decade (hopefully).
 

Bjo187

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Personally, I can see the AFL going with Northern Sydney (NSW3) & Perth (WA3) as the next main expansion targets of the AFL in the late 2030s/early 2040s era, once Tasmania & Canberra receive a license in the AFL Men's/Women's Competitions this decade (hopefully).

Yeah agree but would they go a cairns team before a perth 3? I would imagine having all 4 areas of nsw covered and all 3 of qld covered would be attractive to the afl, not that i would particularly be fond of a north qld team.
 
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RedV3x

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Anyone that has read 'code wars' which is a great book mind you, will see north sydney is there for the taking. The lowest like for nrl across sydney and no nrl club representing an area of over 1 million people. The afl would be silly not to have it as a top priority post tasmania and canberra.

Creating North Sydney out of Swan's territory would be like
creating Joondalup out of Eagle's territory.
 

RedV3x

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Personally, I can see the AFL going with Northern Sydney (NSW3) & Perth (WA3) as the next main expansion targets of the AFL in the late 2030s/early 2040s era, once Tasmania & Canberra receive a license in the AFL Men's/Women's Competitions this decade (hopefully).

Before the AFL do anything they have to decide what model they are going with.
ATM you have a mix of historically strong clubs along with strong (and getting stronger) interstate clubs and boutique clubs with struggling clubs.
Bring on Tasmania, Canberra, Darwin, Cairns, Auckland, Christchurch but don't moan about the resultant equalisation measures.

This IMO, is the trouble with the NRL - they haven't decided what their model will be and gone after that model.
 

Kwality

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Yeah agree but would they go a cairns team before a perth 3? I would imagine having all 4 areas of nsw covered and all 3 of qld covered would be attractive to the afl, not that i would particularly be fond of a north qld team.

Why do you think they wanting to expand ?
 

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