A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[RedV3x]

I disagree. You did not include, from your quote of me above, the remaining relevant part of my quote, in post #4623 re NSW & Qld.

I disagree. This is good but it must be a very tiny piece of the jigsaw. Hardly hang-your-your-hat-on stuff.

This shows the increasing AF awareness, enthusiasm, & cultural attraction for AF in NSW & Qld.

This is good but it must be a very tiny piece of the jigsaw. Hardly hang-your-your-hat-on stuff.
"Cultural attraction" ? WTF.

Why, also, did you do a deflection on my comment, which pertained to only "GR adult female club comp. nos. in WA" being "very poor"?

Why are you actively trying to sabotage W.A. football ?

You very rarely provide links....

It's hard to keep pace with your scatter-gun approach and deciphering what is quote, what is your opinion, what is hyperbole and what is a reasonable take on things.

 

[Magpie03]

1. More reports, re the very strong likelihood the AFL will receive a large increase in its Rights' $.
It can be expected, if occurring, there will be a major increase in GR AF $ being spent in NSW, ACT, & Qld., with commensurate GR growth.

mumbrella S. Al Zaidi 19.5.22

S. Al Zaidi said

"The hustle to secure the amplified ad revenue attached to exclusive broadcasting rights of sporting final events is mirrored in Ten and Seven West’s Media bidding war for the hotly anticipated AFL Grand Final.

In 2021, the AFL Grand Final generated 3.91 million, with an average national audience of 4.09 million each year.
Ad revenue in the prime TV spot can fetch the network anywhere between $150,000 to $175,000 (or more) per 30-seconds of ad coverage.

Buffet’s significant investment may now embolden Ten, in tandem with Paramount+, in its bid to reclaim the rights to the AFL from 2025.

Mumbrella previously spoke to media director and GM of Spinach, Ben Willee, who said Ten and Paramount are going to “have a run at it like an 18-year-old in an all-you-can-drink bar”, as he argued the network “hasn’t recovered” after losing the AFL years ago...

Ten and Paramount Plus are jostling with Amazon, Seven and Foxtel to secure the exclusive rights to the footy coverage, which would be split between Ten and streaming platform Paramount+ for all nine games each roun..

After Buffet’s securing of 11% of the business, Ten may be in a bolstered position for their 2025 bid for rights to the footy’s entire broadcast package.

The investment has given Ten a financial advantage in its efforts to reclaim rights to the nationally loved sport, and would contribute enhanced revenue figures in Paramount’s TV Media sector...".

"Ten's bid for AFL broadcast rights strengthened by $2.6B Paramount Global investment"​

SMH V. Rugari 23.5.22

Rugari has been a professional soccer journalist for c. 15 years, & now writes for the SMH, owned by NINE.
It has, a week ago for the first time, been reported that NINE is also interested in the AFL Rights from 2025, particularly for streaming, & a Thurs. night game.

Rugari said

"Network 10 ‘happy’ despite A-League struggles as AFL broadcast bid looms​

"... while [Channel 10 is] reaffirming its strong interest in the AFL’s broadcast rights, saying it can help put Australia’s indigenous game in front of an international audience.
10’s five-year, $200 million deal to show the A-Leagues is off to a challenging start, with the men’s competition in particular struggling for mainstream relevance amid a continued downturn in crowds, TV ratings and general interest...

McGarvey and 10’s other co-CEO Jarrod Villani recently met with outgoing AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan in New York, as 10 and Paramount contemplates a big-money bid to take over from Fox Sports and Seven as that competition’s chief broadcaster from 2025 onwards - although she was reluctant to speak in detail about the meeting or 10’s ambitions.

'Given the nature of our business now in Australia, we have multiple platforms and multiple revenue streams, we would remain very interested in having a look at what else is out there,' McGarvey said. 'And obviously the AFL is one of those things that is incredibly interesting, should it be genuinely available.
'The AFL is an Indigenous sport to Australia but given it is really high quality, incredibly premium, I do think there’s [an overseas] market for it, and I’d say that’s something that is really of interest to them, and something we could certainly bring to the table' ".

"Network 10 ‘happy’ despite A-League struggles as AFL broadcast bid looms​

The network’s first season covering football has been a major challenge - but that hasn’t deterred 10 as it contemplates a big-money bid for the AFL broadcast rights from 2025".
www.smh.com.au











2. In New England NW NSW, a Youth Girls (to U17) formal Club comp. will start shortly. There have been recent training sessions/scratch matches (at Armidale, Tamworth, Inverell, & Gunnedah), over 4 weeks, inviting girls to try AF.

“This was my first ever game of AFL, and I just loved the tackling and the space to move with the ball,” stated another.

“Some of the girls have never been involved in a tackle sport before but they all loved the feeling of laying a tackle, and of being tackled. This was instantly obvious when we took a break between quarters and when the match finished as the girls walked off the field with huge smiles each time,” Crawley said.

"The Mini Series has been designed to introduce new and existing players to Youth Girls AFL, and to grow the participant base ahead of a club competition being started. This is a great chance for girls to join in with the fastest growing female sport in the country and progress through to the highly successful AFL North West Women’s competition and beyond".

Youth Girls Mini Series sees exponential growth - AFL North West

Match two of the Youth Girls Mini Series held in Inverell showed that momentum is building as numbers all but doubled on the first session which was staged just a week ago. A fantastic turnout saw 18 players take to…Read more ›

aflnorthwestnsw.com.au

3.

This is incorrect.

You constantly denigrate GWS & GCFC, calling them failures/closing them down- common comments by RL fans.

As being told many times, AFL officials (inc. R. Goyder, by imprimatur) & expert AFR finance journalists have said the 9th game (x 22 wks- national ratings) created $50m-60m extra pa, from additional Rights' $ etc.

GR AF has grown strongly in the GWS area of Sydney, & ACT, since 2012. Also AFL draft nos. had declined considerably prior to 2012 from the ACT, & sthn. NSW- but with the GWS Academies, GWS promotional activities etc. in these regions, the draft nos. are growing again.


This is an interesting quote from Dirty Bird, in the "Canberra" Thread (post#422, 30.4.22) from the Footy Industry forum.

"Western Sydney - AFL Sydney Juniors​

Below is a list of clubs located in the Western Sydney region.
(Click in red above, for a List of all 17 jnr AF clubs in WS- snr clubs not inc.).

17 Junior clubs in Western Sydney

8 of which wern't there when I left Sydney 14 years ago.
And of the 9 that were, only 3 (Baulkham Hills (then known as the Falcons), Penrith (then known as the Rams) and Hawksebury) pre-dated 2000".


This above aflsj List of 17 WS jnr clubs does not include the big Pennant Hills JFC. (Pennant Hills is recognised by the NSW LGA as being part of "Greater Western Sydney").
Also, Pennant Hills FC snrs is one of the biggest GR snr clubs of all time, anywhere in Australia, with 11 snr teams in 2022!

The above WS List does also not include these booming jnr Inner WS AF clubs- Western Suburbs JFC (based in Croydon!), Glebe JFC, Concord JFC, Canada Bay JFC, Drummoyne JFC (also plays in Five Dock), Leichardt JFC, Newtown JFC etc. (all playing in the Swans', not Giants', comp.).

Name the clubs that wernt there when you left? From what I can see there are only two new ones. Blacktown and Fairfield. The others are rebranded. Also what is the strength of these clubs - I can tell you it is s**t - most are in two way to four way JVs with the others to be able to field a team.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. The national QuickKick program was launched c. 1month ago. It is designed for females born before 1987, who have never played AF. Many, or most, are in their 40's & 50's. It is an AF skills' program & match, designed to, eventually, encourage women to play in a Masters' comp.

It has attracted 100+ ACT women to join it (& c. 700 in Qld. & NSW). In such a short time from its initial marketing, this shows, albeit a small snapshot, the increasing cultural penetration, & appreciation, of AF in ACT, NSW, & Qld.: older women, from non-heartland areas, novices, now want to play a "rough/risky" body-contact sport... & choose AF!

G. Burgess, 13.7.22, said

“..QuickKick has already made its mark for the women of Canberra with over a hundred registrations... More than half of the ACT women that have registered are over 40 and to see these women exercising their athletic potential, their potential to pick up skills, and learn different things, that willingness to go ‘What more can I learn?’— I think that it’s brilliant...".

Kicking goals: The women tackling Masters AFL in Canberra | HerCanberra

For many of us, the only time we would have touched a football was during gym class—but across the country that's changing with the QuickKick initiative.

hercanberra.com.au

2.

Name the clubs that wernt there when you left? From what I can see there are only two new ones. Blacktown and Fairfield. The others are rebranded.

It was Dirty Bird, who said he played AF in WS until 2008, who made the comments (which I quoted) about the new WS clubs- I suggest you address your question to him.



The Australian 13.5.22 J. Halloran said

"The AFL NSW/ACT has secured seven new AFL facilities in western Sydney since 2019 and facilitated upgrades for 13 existing club homes in the past 10 years.

[G. McLachlan] 'The Giants have unquestionably been a success story for our game and in the broader Australian sporting landscape with three teams across men’s and women’s elite sport and while they have reached great heights on-field, they have also continued to expand their footprint at an extraordinary rate,' he said.
'Given the base the club has built in new territory in just 11 years, there is no doubt it is going to be a very powerful and large club attracting generations of fans for decades to come.'

[D. Matthews] 'By any metric, the Giants’ growth since entering the AFL just a decade ago has been remarkable,' he said. 'As an organisation with over 30,000 members and three elite teams under the Giants brand our footprint in NSW and the ACT is vast'.

Halloran said "The Giants [said]... the AFL figures truly show the growth of the game in western Sydney — with participation community football and Auskick doubling since 2012 in the area".

(In the Swans' Zone in Sydney since 2012, the GR jnr club comp. players nos. have increased c. 2.5 times, cf 2012 nos.

In the elite Sydney private schools, since 2013, male secondary school AF comp. teams have gone from c. 5 teams to 71 teams in 2022!
In the elite Sydney private schools, since 2019, female secondary school AF comp. teams have gone from nil teams to, staggeringly, 72 teams in 2022! My emphases, & words in brackets).



The AFL's M. Pegan, 15.7.21, re the WS area, said

"The talent pool is gradually growing, though, with the number of junior footballers in Western Sydney rising by 25 per cent between 2016 and 2019. NAB AFL Auskick registrations increased by 15 per cent between 2017 and 2019.
The exposure to football and options to play the game across Western Sydney are also expanding, with a football club now set up in every local government area and an AFL program offered in 60 per cent of schools in the region, according to AFL NSW/ACT".

'All 1200-plus players in the Academy are decked out in Giants gear, playing jumper, shorts, socks, hoodies, backpacks and they get their own footy,' Saddington said.
'So they have that real connection with the Giants and they look like mini-Giants. They stand out and more people are starting to recognise the brand and ask questions about the game.
'We're 10 years into the Academy program at the footy club, give us another 10 or 15 years and we'll see it has grown much, much more. Hopefully that's similar to what the Swans were able to do, but it still took them a good 20-odd years' (All emphases, mine) ".

Cold war brewing between Giants and Swans over local talent

After unearthing top talent from traditional footy regions, the Giants are changing tack

www.afl.com.au

The AFL, in 2012, said the true success of GWS should be judged only after at least 20 years from 2012.

It's great to see that Auskick, GR school & club (jnr & snr) comp. player nos. are all having major growth, all at record highs in NSW- they have been growing strongly in NSW since 2012, GWS's commencement.

Ditto ACT (inc. adjoining Queanbeyan/Goulburn areas) Auskick, & GR school & club (jnr & snr) comp. player nos. They are also now having major growth, & are at record highs (easily eclipsing, now, GR contact RL school & jnr & snr club comp. player nos., inc. Queanbeyan/Goulburn areas).
GR AF fell from the late 1980's, after the Canberra Raiders entered the NRL- but began rising again since 2012.

These are the currently 17 jnr clubs in WS, which play in the Giants comp. The AFL said that, prior to GWS creation, some of the 14 LGA's in the GWS metro area did not have even 1 GR AF club in their boundaries- now they all do.

"Western Sydney​

Below is a list of clubs located in the Western Sydney region. To register with the club click ‘REGISTER NOW’

BANKSTOWN BULLSHARKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
BAULKHAM HILLS HAWKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
BLACKTOWN CITY SUNS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map


BLUE MOUNTAINS KANGAROOS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
CAMDEN CATS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
EMU PLAINS/GLENMORE PARK LIONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

FAIRFIELD FALCONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
GREYSTANES GOANNAS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

HAWKESBURY SAINTSCurrent News - Blacktown City Junior Australian Football Club - GameDay

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map


INGLEBURN MAGPIES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

KELLYVILLE ROUSE HILL MAGPIES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

LIVERPOOL EAGLES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

MACARTHUR BULLDOGS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
PARRAMATTA LIONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
PENRITH GIANTSCurrent News - Blacktown City Junior Australian Football Club - GameDay

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

SOUTH WEST TIGERS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

WOLLONDILLY REDBACKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map"

 

[Walshawk]

1. The national Quickkick program was launched c. 1month ago. It is designed for females born after 1987, who have never played AF. Many are in their 40's & 50's. It is an AF skills program & match, designed to, eventually, encourage women to play in a Masters comp.

It has attracted 100+ ACT women to join it (& c. 700 in Qld. & NSW). In such a short time from its creation, this shows the increasing cultural penetration, & appreciation, of AF in ACT, NSW, & Qld.: older women, from non-heartland areas, novices, want to play a body-contact sport... & choose AF.

G. Burgess, 13.7.22, said

“More than half of the ACT women that have registered are over 40 and to see these women exercising their athletic potential, their potential to pick up skills, and learn different things, that willingness to go ‘What more can I learn?’— I think that it’s brilliant...".

Kicking goals: The women tackling Masters AFL in Canberra | HerCanberra

For many of us, the only time we would have touched a football was during gym class—but across the country that's changing with the QuickKick initiative.

hercanberra.com.au

2.

It was Dirty Bird, who said he played AF in WS until 2008, who made the comments (which I quoted) about the new WS clubs- I suggest you address your question to him.


On 13.5.22, The Australian said

"The AFL NSW/ACT has secured seven new AFL facilities in western Sydney since 2019 and facilitated upgrades for 13 existing club homes in the past 10 years. AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan told The Weekend Australian the Giants were an irrefutable success story for the code".

The Giants, on 13.5.22, said," the AFL figures truly show the growth of the game in western Sydney — with participation community football and Auskick doubling since 2012 in the area".
(In the Swans' Zone in Sydney, the increase has been c. 2.5 times, cf 2012 nos.).


The AFL's M. Pegan, 15.7.21, re the WS area, said

"The talent pool is gradually growing, though, with the number of junior footballers in Western Sydney rising by 25 per cent between 2016 and 2019. NAB AFL Auskick registrations increased by 15 per cent between 2017 and 2019.
The exposure to football and options to play the game across Western Sydney are also expanding, with a football club now set up in every local government area and an AFL program offered in 60 per cent of schools in the region, according to AFL NSW/ACT".

'All 1200-plus players in the Academy are decked out in Giants gear, playing jumper, shorts, socks, hoodies, backpacks and they get their own footy,' Saddington said.
'So they have that real connection with the Giants and they look like mini-Giants. They stand out and more people are starting to recognise the brand and ask questions about the game.
'We're 10 years into the Academy program at the footy club, give us another 10 or 15 years and we'll see it has grown much, much more. Hopefully that's similar to what the Swans were able to do, but it still took them a good 20-odd years' ".

Cold war brewing between Giants and Swans over local talent

After unearthing top talent from traditional footy regions, the Giants are changing tack

www.afl.com.au

The AFL, in 2012, said the true success of GWS should be judged only after at least 20 years from 2012.

It's great to see that Auskick, GR school & club comp. player nos. are having major growth, both at record highs in NSW- they have been growing strongly in NSW since 2012, GWS's commencement.

Ditto ACT Auskick, & GR school & club. comp. player nos. They are also now having major growth, & areat record highs (easily eclipsing, now, GR contact RL school & club comp. player nos., inc. Queanbeyan/Goulburn areas).
GR AF fell from the late 1980's, after the Canberra Raiders entered the NRL- but began rising again since 2012.

These are the currently 17 jnr clubs in WS, which play in the Giants comp. The AFL said that, prior to GWS creation, some of the 14 LGA's in the GWS did not have even 1 GR AF club in their boundaries.

"Western Sydney​

Below is a list of clubs located in the Western Sydney region. To register with the club click ‘REGISTER NOW’

BANKSTOWN BULLSHARKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
BAULKHAM HILLS HAWKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
BLACKTOWN CITY SUNS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map


BLUE MOUNTAINS KANGAROOS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
CAMDEN CATS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
EMU PLAINS/GLENMORE PARK LIONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

FAIRFIELD FALCONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
GREYSTANES GOANNAS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

HAWKESBURY SAINTSCurrent News - Blacktown City Junior Australian Football Club - GameDay

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map


INGLEBURN MAGPIES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

KELLYVILLE ROUSE HILL MAGPIES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

LIVERPOOL EAGLES

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

MACARTHUR BULLDOGS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
PARRAMATTA LIONS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map
PENRITH GIANTSCurrent News - Blacktown City Junior Australian Football Club - GameDay

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

SOUTH WEST TIGERS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map

WOLLONDILLY REDBACKS

REGISTER NOW
Click here for a map"

That's great, but hasn't participation in the rest of Sydney grown at a similar rate? Perhaps the growth in the west would be the same with or without the Giants. It is a shame that the growth in participation is not reflected in GWS crowds. Is there a disconnect? Or is the ability for Western Sydney to support an AFL club still a generation away?

 

[RedV3x]

It was Dirty Bird, who said he played AF in WS until 2008, who made the comments (which I quoted) about the new WS clubs- I suggest you address your question to him.

I suggest if you quote somebody you make if perfectly clear that it is a quote and not your opinion and whether you agree or disagree.
If you quote it - you own it.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. Good video, from 5.7.22, of the new Swans' HQ, at the very impressive Royal Hall Of Industries- it also has an indoor playing field inside the building!

Help us build our future

In the biggest project our club has undertaken since moving to Sydney, we’re building Sydney Swans HQ at the Royal Hall of Industries – a world-class home for our future.

www.sydneyswans.com.au

2. More info. on Canberra older women who are embracing QuickKick -the introductory skills' program for women over 35 y.o., who are new to AF.
QuickKick is designed, as an Australia-wide program, to encourage women to later enrol in Masters' AF comps.

7.7.22 Canberra Times Teaser: R. Hurrell was never given a chance to play Aussie Rules in her childhood...

The free program enticing over-35 women into footy

Rebecca Hurrell never thought she'd be able to play Aussie rules. Until now.

www.canberratimes.com.au

(Behind a Paywall- can anyone open, & post here please).






3.

That's great, but hasn't participation in the rest of Sydney grown at a similar rate?

The GWS area of Sydney initially grew at a faster rate, cf the Swans area- because the GWS metro area started off a very low base ie only c. 60 jnr teams in 2012 in their area, it was a desert for AF.
In the last 3 years, however, the Swans' metro zone GR team nos. have increased at a far greater %. Private school AF comp. nos. there have always been much stronger than private school comp. AF nos. in GWS (which feed into jnr club nos. also).

In Sydney, AF tends to have a much stronger anglo-celtic background following (cursory examination of some published GR Team Lists); & is objectively strongest (with much larger GR nos., cf Giants' Zone) in the middle class & affluent areas. These AF-following demographics make it much more difficult for GWS.

Perhaps the growth in the west would be the same with or without the Giants. It is a shame that the growth in participation is not reflected in GWS crowds.

Definitely not- the Giants have done an enormous amount of work, promoting AF inthe GWS area- & have won several awards, that cover all NSW, for their GR work!

GIANTS Take Out Premier’s Multicultural Award for Second Year Running

The GIANTS have been recognised for their work in the community with the GIANT Hand project.

www.gwsgiants.com.au

Cogs Cup Kicking Goals

More than 200 students have taken part in the Stephen Coniglio and Amanda Farrugia Cups.

www.gwsgiants.com.au

AFL 2021: Sydney Swans, GWS Giants helping code boom at rugby’s expense in harbour city

amp.smh.com.au

The AFL had generic Academies in Sydney, but they had minimal impact, cf the "branded" GWS & Swans' Academies. Tribalism works!

In NSW & Qld., when AFL clubs are poor on field, their crowds drop disproportionately, cf Vic., WA, SA, & Tas. ..much less "rusted-on". The Swans, in the early 90's won very few games, & their crowd average dropped to c.6200 (but they probably have more rusted-on fans now). Ditto, Brisbane FC in their very poor years at the Gabba.
GWS have been very poor on field in 2022- also they played no games at Giants Stadium in front of crowds in 2020, & very few in 2021- momentum lost.

Or is the ability for Western Sydney to support an AFL club still a generation away?

It is difficult to say- crowds averaged c. 12k per game at Giants Stadium for the 4 years to 2019.

If GWS had recruited B. Franklin, it would have created much good PR for AF in WS, & their crowds would be higher. They definitely need star power, Sydney crowds love goal-kicking forwards- Capper, Lockett, Hall, & Franklin, all gave Swans a massive boost.

Phil Gould, NRL legend & an expert on WS, & particularly GR RL there, in 2019 said that, eventually, GWS will become a massive Club in Sydney-
if the they become successful on-field/win a GF.

I suggest if you quote somebody you make if perfectly clear that it is a quote and not your opinion and whether you agree or disagree.
If you quote it - you own it.

You didn't read my quote- I put it (as always) in quotation marks, & specifically stated the comment was from Dirty Bird on BF, who said he played AF in WS until 2008.

 

[RedV3x]

In Sydney, AF tends to have a much stronger anglo-celtic background following- & is objectively strongest (with huge GR nos.) in the middle class & affluent areas. These AF-following demographics make it much more difficult for GWS.

Stop with this utter B.S.
In Sydney, AF tends to have had a much stronger English-speaking background following and where AF was traditionally played.
GWS has a more difficult task because of the lack of traditional AFCs, immigrant cultures, previous AFL media starvation and the fact that the Sydney Swans were established first targetting the strongest AFL areas.

In NSW & Qld., when AFL clubs are poor on field, their crowds drop disproportionately, cf Vic., WA, SA, & Tas. ..much less "rusted-on".

It's call depth.

The Swans, in the early 90's won very few games, & their crowd average dropped

Plus the media was advertising their financial troubles and relocation to Canberra.
On the other side of the coin the Lions have outdrawn the broncos for very long periods
and there have been times when Swans attendances have been greater than the combined NRL attendances in Sydney.

If GWS had recruied B. Franklin, it would have created much good PR for AF in WS, & their crowds would be higher.

If GWS had recruited B. Franklin, it would have created much good PR for AF in WS and if they had won games their crowds would have been higher.

They definitely need star power,

All clubs need star power or more importantly they need characters. As AFL has become more professional it has lost it's ability to attract characters.
They reckoned that Mark Jackson was worth a conservative an extra 5k attendance to each game.

Sydney crowds love goal-kicking forwards- Capper, Lockett, Hall, & Franklin, all Gave Swans a massive boost.

As AFL has become more professional it has lost the star forward. All teams had their star forward.
IMO Dusty is a far far better proposition - he's possibly available & interested and he's in the engine room
not like a star forward that can be starved of supply.
GWS did have an up&coming star forward but he went to Geelong.
Sydney still suffers from player retention problems.

Phil Gould, NRL legend & an expert on WS, & particularly GR RL there, in 2019 said that, eventually, GWS will become a massive Club in Sydney-
if the they become successful on-field/win a GF.

FFS. Exactly what I've been saying repetitively all along but you wont accept it until a NRL "expert" says it.

 

[jatz14]

1. abc.net C. Atkinson & S. Lawson 12.5.22

Atkinson & Lawson said

"North of the river, players like Tom Hawkins and Shane Crawford (Finley), Leo Barry (Deniliquin) and John Longmire (Corowa-Rutherglen) have put their marks on the game, leading to that region being the most prosperous per capita (in Australia- my emphasis) for producing VFL/AFL footballers in the draft era, as comprehensively logged by Dave Slutzkin at DraftGuru".

Which locations have provided the AFL with the most talent and the best players?

From Warrnambool to Wangaratta, Dartmoor to Darwin, and Glenelg to Glenorchy, AFL players learn their trade in all corners of the country — but which region has provided the league with the best players? Cody Atkinson and Sean Lawson investigate.

www.abc.net.au

The major reason why it is almost a certainty that Sydney will, eventually, have a 3rd AFL club is because of the huge wealth of Sydney (& its influence in politics; & the 4 biggest MSM cos. all have their HQ's in Sydney- as are the HQ's of advertising cos. which generate 50%+ of all advertising revenue in Aust. Sydney advertising hourly rates are the highest in Aust.).

Sydney will be the first city in Australia to reach, in 2060, a $1 trillion + economy. The AFL has no choice but to "follow the money".

Sydney's population was estimated by the ABS in late 2019 to reach 8m by 2050.

A further incontrovertible factor in the importance of a 3rd club in Sydney is the potential its huge population (inc. all of NSW & ACT) has for producing AFL Draftees.
AF simply cannot allow other sports to dominate the recruitment of the vast nos. of elite athletes there.

The AFL will, obviously, want to take full advantage of all NSW & ACT- to attempt to "replicate" (probaly not quite as strongly) the extraordinary sucess of the Riverina! On a per capita basis, the Riverina is the most fertile AFL Draft area in Australia...amazing!






2.

All very good points, with a reasonable chance of actually happening. It would be a very big boost for GWS to have a player who is an established "big name star". Martin would be almost perfect for garnering a big increase in attention on GWS (not as good, however, as a champion full forward).

If that player kicks bags of goals, even better in the Sydney market, for AFL success. Capper, Locket, Hall, & now Franklin have provided the Swans a major boost in popularity.


This would be very good for GWS home games.

Also, to improve "the vibe" of GWS home games, I would prefer the cameras to be located on the wing at Giants Stadium, panning back to the main grandstand area- which is where all the GWS members are. It creates a much better spectacle for the home viewer with good crowds in the background, cf sparse crowds on the wing. "Sell the sizzle, not just the sausage".




RA will likely have a net $100m + profit from hosting the Rugby WC in 2027.

Unlike the post 2003 WC in Australia ($45m net profit), they will not squander this windfall.

I suspect they will spend vast amounts trying to reverse the long term decline in male GR contact RU nos.

An additional use of funds is that RA has also already announced (similar strategy adopted pre the 2003 WC) it intends to recruit some NRL stars, to strenthen the Wallabies for the 2027 WC.
Will this weaken the NRL, if RA recruits (for eg) 3 NRL stars?

Spending vast amounts on grass roots will be, imop, squandering the money from the world cup, as I don't think it will have that much of an affect.

Unless there is a shortage of facilities/grounds holding people back from taking it up (there isn't).

Unless people are unaware of the game, and need to be prompted to give it a try (they aren't).

Unless people who want to play find it so expensive that they cannot afford it (it's not more expensive than soccer, a notoriously expensive game at grass roots).

More pathways, when the pathways they have are not full?

What does spending money on the grass roots mean?

This is the sort of issue that is notoriously intransigent to cash.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

1. The AFL has launched "Quickkick", an Australia-wide initiative, for women born between 1930(!) -1987, who want to learn the skills of AF. It is designed to be an entry-level program for women who may later wish to play female comp. AF.

http://aflmasters.com.au/quickkick/

"There has already been a large take up across the country, with more than 2,000 people signing up within days of QuickKick’s launch. Among them is a multiple Grand Slam tennis champion and a 73-year-old!.
Of the current registered participants, one third are from NSW or Queensland... (my emphases)".

(As c. 700 women, "within days of Quickkick's launch", joined from NSW & Qld., this is a very good result for non-heartland States, in such a short period.
Interestingly, in Sydney, WS & SS are the only clinics established- not NS, ES, North WS, & Inner WS, where GR AF is far stronger. Newcastle & Wollongong, where AF is only a niche sport, were also chosen).

AFL Masters launches program for women over 35 - AFL NSW / ACT

If you’re 35-year-old woman or older, who’s never played footy but always yearned for the opportunity, this could be your chance to get out on the park! AFL Masters has launched QuickKick, an entry level program held fortnightly in all…Read more ›

aflnswact.com.au

2.


This is incorrect, re GR adult female club comp. nos in WA (Official stats for general AF "participants", community, one-off events etc. have very little significance, cf club & school comp. nos., & Auskick).
On a per capita basis since 2017, WA has performed very poorly in GR female club nos., cf Vic. & Qld. (& Qld. is not an heartland State!).

I don't think this is correct.

You could argue that the increase in female AF teams in WA has been pushing the limits of what was physically and logistically possible.

Perth football league went from zero teams in 2017 to 7 divisions in 2022, and this is over the period of Covid.

I believe all country footy leagues have an associated women's division.

It expanded so fast that the unavoidable consequences are in respect to quality, not quantity.

Womens footy teams in WA lack experienced players, obviously. When you have forty more teams than you did 2 years ago, you are going to have whole teams where most players only have a year or 2 of experience.

I would have said numbers lagged until 2017, then expanded about as quick as was possible.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

Utter rubbish.

Here's the original 10 rules.

1. The distance between the Goals and the Goal Posts shall be decided upon by the Captains of the sides playing.
2. The Captains on each side shall toss for choice of Goal; the side losing the toss has the kick off from the centre point between the Goals
3. A Goal must be kicked fairly between the posts, without touching either of them, or a portion of the person of any player on either side.
4. The game shall be played within a space of not more than 200 yards [180 m] wide, the same to be measured equally on each side of a line drawn through the centres of the two Goals; and two posts to be called the "kick off posts" shall be erected at a distance of 20 yards [18 m] on each side of the Goal posts at both ends, and in a straight line with them.
5. In case the ball is kicked "behind" Goal, any one of the side behind whose Goal it is kicked may bring it 20 yards [18 m] in front of any portion of the space between the "kick off" posts, and shall kick it as nearly as possible in line with the opposite Goal.
6. Any player catching the ball "directly" from the foot may call "mark". He then has a free kick; no player from the opposite side being allowed to come "inside" the spot marked.
7. Tripping and pushing are both allowed (but no hacking) when any player is in rapid motion or in possession of the ball, except in the case provided for in Rule 6.
8. The ball may be taken in hand "only" when caught from the foot, or on the hop. In "no case" shall it be "lifted" from the ground.
9. When a ball goes out of bounds (the same being indicated by a row of posts) it shall be brought back to the point where it crossed the boundary-line, and thrown in at right angles with that line.
10. The ball, while in play, may under no circumstances be thrown.

Rules #1 & #2 are inconsequential
Rule #4, #5, #8 and #9 are unique.
Rule #6 was common to all football
Rules #7 #10 are anti-rugby rules

Gaelic Football was much more organised than English Football at the time and Gaelic Football may have indeed influenced
the origins of Australian Football but we don't know as Gaelic Football was not codified at the time,
however they must have been reasonably close for Gaelic Football to choose rules close to old Australian Football when they did codify.

It seems quite logical to me that the original committee envisaged a kick and catch game which was far removed from the English scrap of a game.
Indeed, before they penned the original rules a lot of experimentation had taken place as to the direction of the game
and that experimentation was of a game totally removed from the English farce.

This isn't really true though.

If you look at the history of Gaelic football, it's very long, but only if you consider any form of football player in Ireland "Gaelic" just because it's played in Ireland.

The codification of Gaelic was pushed by Irish Republicans upset at the spread of English sport in Ireland.

There was no organised Gaelic, which is why soccer and Rugby were spreading.

There wasn't even an agreed format or rules. It's arguable there was no organised sport at all, just a collection of local ball sports.

To muddy the waters, when the Gaelic code was produced, Irish Republicans invented a history and mythology to go with it.

They wanted Irish people playing Irish sport and not playing English sport, and they rolled this notion up in patriotism and sold it as such.

No good Irishman should play cricket, they should play the traditional Gaelic sport of Hurling (which was an ancient traditional Gaelic sport).

No good Irishman should play soccer, they should play the ancient Gaelic sport of Gaelic football (that we thought up last Thursday, and cannot think of a traditional name for).

If their is a connection between Australian football and Gaelic, it's almost certainly AF influencing Gaelic, and not the other way around.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[RedV3x]

If you look at the history of Gaelic football, it's very long,

and I was referencing an early period when gaelic games including football were much more organised than the annual festive scraps that the English called football.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. The Australian J. Stensholt 18.7.22

Stensholt said

"The AFL is trying to entice Seven West Media and Foxtel to up their bids for television rights to as close to $600m annually (my emphases) as possible, in an effort to keep the incumbent broadcasters in place until at least 2029 and as ViacomCBS-owned Network Ten considers a potential knockout bid for all free-to-air and streaming rights to the code.

Seven and Foxtel have indicated they are keen to maintain their rights, and discussions have begun regarding what mechanisms could be used to entice either party to raise their bids.

One option being discussed is Foxtel gaining rights to show more live matches of the local teams in passionate AFL cities Adelaide, where the Crows and Port are both popular, and Perth, the home of the West Coast Eagles and Fremantle...

One option for Foxtel, who would pay more for the rights, is its Kayo Freebies service that allows for the streaming of select events without a charge. But Seven is being steadfast in its discussions with the AFL that it must maintain the strong-rating Adelaide and Perth games.

Foxtel is also keen to cement Saturday as its showpiece day for showing AFL games on an exclusive basis, similar to its “Super Saturday” collection of NRL games each weekend...

As reported by The Australian in early July, Ten and the AFL have discussed a knockout bid for all of the sport’s rights, including streaming options, for about $600m per year in cash and contra, or $3bn in total over five years. Seven and Foxtel will pay a combined $946m for the 2023 and 2024 seasons.

Nine Entertainment has proposed a bid for a package of Thursday night games to the AFL, though the league is believed not to be keen to split its hosting options across more than two broadcasters unless it receives bids that are too lucrative to turn down"...

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bu...e/news-story/da4c89cac2fff63c66862423edcd23f9 (Paywall)


More reports that the AFL is likely to receive an huge increase in its Rights' from 2025. This will likely lead also to a major increase in funding for NSW/ACT GR Auskick, club, & school comps. GR are the foundations of the AFL which, eventually (after GWS is thriving & fully sustainable), will almost certainly lead to a 3rd club in influential, huge, & generally affluent Sydney.








2.

For home games face the camera to the side of the ground where more people are seated, sell more seats on that side of the ground, optics are everything.

Correct.

Giants' games at Giants Stadium & Manuka should have the TV cameras high in the Outer, panning back & down to where all their members are seated- much more crowded & animated: "sell" GWS games to viewers at home.
Ditto, Suns home games, & AFLW games everywhere (Very lowly-funded NRLW is easily eclipsing AFLW in the ratings).

The morons in the AFL should not have to be told about this, it's basic marketing. It's the successful strategy used by the VFA, where First Division crowds averaged c. 20k+ pw, in total.

Get one of the employees to start an active supporter group for the club. Go around to all local AFL clubs and ask a bunch of boys say 14 to 20 yrs old if they want to join a group that chants and cheers throughout games. Give them free entry, but monitor behaviour and make it cool to be a giants fan. More people will join once you get that initial squad together

Great suggestion.

• Very good point about getting games on main 7. It was clever by the AFL to ensure the Sydney teams are always free-to-air, but the main channel could make a big difference. Especially the bigger games.

Bjo187 replied" It's poor the AFL haven't had a word to them about it. Get a lot of gws and gold coast games on fta on Saturday afternoon, whilst there is no nrl on fta".

I suspect if Paramount/10 win the Rights, Ch. 10 will become "Channel AFL"- & it will put all weekend day AFL matches, for Sydney, Brisbane, GC, & GWS (Home & Away) on their main FTA channels in NSW & Qld. ie not daytime, secondary channels.
And, perhaps, also evening matches- but A League times clashing?

The camera angle seems so obvious, but it's probably more feasible at night games. I think the sun becomes the issue, both spectators and the camera want it behind them

In the very high-rating VFA Sunday-exclusive pre-1982 games, the cameras were often in the back of the Outer, high up on scaffolding. If the sun was predicted, or out, an horizontal, protruding small shade was put on top of the camera ie the glare of the sun did not interfere with the telecast (unless a very high kick).

This is how Port Melbourne VFL home games are broadcast now by Ch.7 (cameras & commentators in the Outer, up high on roofed scaffolding), panning back to the much more crowded grandstand areas- inc. the 2022 VFLW Grand Final below (3.7.22, crowd c. 5k), also played at PMFC.

VFLW Records Grand Final: Bomber dominance shows up in the numbers

Second best season in competition history

www.afl.com.au

Full game Video in link.

The canned noise would have to be really subtle and really on time. If they went down that route, it might be better setting up some sort of relay to pick up noise from a busier part of the stadium so the right noises - the cheers, the boos, the gasps - all happen at the right time

I have been told by NRL fans that , at least for some games c. 10 years ago, there were some simulated noises in games- but only in these 2 circumstances.
Studio would "superimpose" a thud noise, audible for home viewers, when 2 NRL players collided; & cheering noises, to make the crowd seem louder & more excited.

Can any one confirm if this is true, & does it still occur?

 

[Bjo187]

1. The Australian J. Stensholt 18.7.22

Stensholt said

The AFL is trying to entice Seven West Media and Foxtel to up their bids for television rights to as close to $600m annually (my emphases) as possible, in an effort to keep the incumbent broadcasters in place until at least 2029 and as ViacomCBS-owned Network Ten considers a potential knockout bid for all free-to-air and streaming rights to the code.

Seven and Foxtel have indicated they are keen to maintain their rights, and discussions have begun regarding what mechanisms could be used to entice either party to raise their bids.

One option being discussed is Foxtel gaining rights to show more live matches of the local teams in passionate AFL cities Adelaide, where the Crows and Port are both popular, and Perth, the home of the West Coast Eagles and Fremantle...

One option for Foxtel, who would pay more for the rights, is its Kayo Freebies service that allows for the streaming of select events without a charge. But Seven is being steadfast in its discussions with the AFL that it must maintain the strong-rating Adelaide and Perth games.

Foxtel is also keen to cement Saturday as its showpiece day for showing AFL games on an exclusive basis, similar to its “Super Saturday” collection of NRL games each weekend...

As reported by The Australian in early July, Ten and the AFL have discussed a knockout bid for all of the sport’s rights, including streaming options, for about $600m per year in cash and contra, or $3bn in total over five years. Seven and Foxtel will pay a combined $946m for the 2023 and 2024 seasons".

Nine Entertainment has proposed a bid for a package of Thursday night games to the AFL, though the league is believed not to be keen to split its hosting options across more than two broadcasters unless it receives bids that are too lucrative to turn down"...

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bu...e/news-story/da4c89cac2fff63c66862423edcd23f9

More reports that the AFL is likely to receive an huge increase in its Rights' from 2025. This will likely lead also to a major increase in funding for NSW/ACT GR Auskick, club, & school comps.- the foundations of AF which, eventually (after GWS is fully sustainable) lead to a 3rd club in in wealthy, influential, & huge Sydney.








2.

Correct.

Giants games at Giants Stadium should have the TV cameras high in the Outer, panning back & down to where all their members are seated- much more crowded & animated:"sell" GWS games to viewers at home.
Ditto, Suns home games, & AFLW games- the morons in the AFL should not have to be told about this, it's basic marketing.


Great suggestion.


Bjo187 replied" It's poor the AFL haven't had a word to them about it. Get a lot of gws and gold coast games on fta on Saturday afternoon, whilst there is no nrl on fta".

I suspect if Paramount10 win the Rights, Ch. 10 will become Channel AFL- & it will put weekend day AFL matches, in Sydney & SEQ, on the main FTA channels ie not daytime, secondary channels.



In the very high-rating VFA Sunday-exclusive pre-1982 games, the cameras were often in the Outer, high up on scaffolding- if the sun was predicted, or out, an horizontal, small shade was put on top of the camera ie the glare of the sun did not interfere the TV vision.

This is how Port Melbourne VFL home games are broadcast now (cameras up high on scaffolding), panning back to the more crowded grandstand areas- inc. the 2022 VFLW Grand Final below, played at PMFC.

83:28MINS
Published on Jul 3, 2022, 1:15pm

VFLW Match Replay: Essendon v Southern Saints​

The Bombers and Saints clash in the grand final of the VFLW Competition



I have been told by NRL fans that , at least for some games c. 10 years ago, there were some simulated noises in games- but only in these 2 circumstances.
Studio would "superimpose" a thud noise, audible for home viewers, when 2 NRL players collided; & cheering noises, to make the crowd seem more excited.

Can any one confirm if this is true, & does it still occur?

I noticed why the nrl crowd noise is better, they have a guy on each side of the field following the ball with a big furry microphone. That's why you get better crowd noise and the thud sound with tackles because they have a moving microphone right near the play. It sounds loud when there are barely a few thousand in the stadium. 7's AFL coverage being the opposite, when you have a big crowd and zero atmosphere through the tv (it may as well be empty). This is an important one that should be rectified and is pretty amatuer production imo.

On your other article regarding albo pushing for 60 million to sell NRL into the Pacific, does this bloke remember which country he is leader of? He isn't the prime minister of the republic of NSW, I even saw him giving a rabbitohs shirt to Boris Johnson. If you are the p.m of Australia you should be promoting Australia's own invention and culture being Australian football, not the British invented rugby league, the bloke seems like a hazard for the AFL by being in power.

 

[RedV3x]

If you are the p.m of Australia you should be promoting Australia's own invention and culture being Australian Football, not the British invented rugby league, the bloke seems like a hazard for the AFL by being in power.

Probably why Mcgowan wasn't happy with him (before the election).

 

[RedV3x]

I noticed why the nrl crowd noise is better,

More contrived. You wouldn't normally hear that at a game.
I don't have any problem in that regard with Australian Football games.
Just give me the crowd noise as it is and a simple commentary.

 

[Bjo187]

More contrived. You wouldn't normally hear that at a game.
I don't have any problem in that regard with Australian Football games.
Just give me the crowd noise as it is and a simple commentary.

It isn't 'as it is' though, they actually filter it out on 7. Run a test on Friday night footy, switch from 7 (filtered) to fox (un filtered) and you will notice a difference. On 7 you think the crowd is bored out of their minds not making any sound, until you realise the background noise is filtered out by the network producer.

 

[RedV3x]

It isn't 'as it is' though, they actually filter it out on 7. Run a test on Friday night footy, switch from 7 (filtered) to fox (un filtered) and you will notice a difference. On 7 you think the crowd is bored out of their minds not making any sound, until you realise the background noise is filtered out by the network producer.

Filtered out or simply enhanced. I don't have any problem what-so-ever with FTA crowd noise.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I noticed why the nrl crowd noise is better, they have a guy on each side of the field following the ball with a big furry microphone. That's why you get better crowd noise and the thud sound with tackles because they have a moving microphone right near the play. It sounds loud when there are barely a few thousand in the stadium. 7's AFL coverage being the opposite, when you have a big crowd and zero atmosphere through the tv (it may as well be empty). This is an important one that should be rectified and is pretty amatuer production imo.

On your other article regarding albo pushing for 60 million to sell NRL into the Pacific, does this bloke remember which country he is leader of? He isn't the prime minister of the republic of NSW, I even saw him giving a rabbitohs shirt to Boris Johnson. If you are the p.m of Australia you should be promoting Australia's own invention and culture being Australian football, not the British invented rugby league, the bloke seems like a hazard for the AFL by being in power.

The locals weren't playing any sort of football on a Cricket oval when the first fleet arrived despite the claims of some.
Tom Wills went to Rugby School in England where he played Cricket and Rugby.
The truth is that all football codes have their origins in the British Isles. A fact some people struggle with

 

[Bjo187]

The locals weren't playing any sort of football on a Cricket oval when the first fleet arrived despite the claims of some.
Tom Wills went to Rugby School in England where he played Cricket and Rugby.
The truth is that all football codes have their origins in the British Isles. A fact some people struggle with

So a man born in Australia, that invents a new sport in Australia called Australian rules football, that isn't played anywhere else in the world, somehow that sport isn't considered 'Australian'? Yeah, good point you make there, that's hilarious .

 

[madmug]

The locals weren't playing any sort of football on a Cricket oval when the first fleet arrived despite the claims of some.
Tom Wills went to Rugby School in England where he played Cricket and Rugby.
The truth is that all football codes have their origins in the British Isles. A fact some people struggle with

So you're saying nothing resembling kicking something around while 2 groups (of men) battled over it, was done until some 'enlightened' Victorian Englishmen called such activity 'football'. ??

Really?

 

[Walshawk]

I noticed why the nrl crowd noise is better, they have a guy on each side of the field following the ball with a big furry microphone. That's why you get better crowd noise and the thud sound with tackles because they have a moving microphone right near the play. It sounds loud when there are barely a few thousand in the stadium. 7's AFL coverage being the opposite, when you have a big crowd and zero atmosphere through the tv (it may as well be empty). This is an important one that should be rectified and is pretty amatuer production imo.

On your other article regarding albo pushing for 60 million to sell NRL into the Pacific, does this bloke remember which country he is leader of? He isn't the prime minister of the republic of NSW, I even saw him giving a rabbitohs shirt to Boris Johnson. If you are the p.m of Australia you should be promoting Australia's own invention and culture being Australian football, not the British invented rugby league, the bloke seems like a hazard for the AFL by being in power.

North Port Oval has the grandstand on the south side, unlike just about any other oval in Australia. That is why they shoot towards it..

 

[RedV3x]

Tom Wills went to Rugby School in England where he played Cricket and Rugby.

Tom Wills was just one person in the formation of the unique game of Australian Football.
The rules of Australian Football were first formulated after much experimentation.
The rules of Australian Football have nothing to do with rugby or cricket, in fact they expressly prohibit rugby.

The truth is that all football codes have their origins in the British Isles. A fact some people struggle with

So Marngrook is a British game ?
So Gaelic Football is a British game ? (I noticed you changed your troll from "English" to "British")
You and your "British" friends as so arrogant as to overwrite history.
There are many forms of football of which Australian Football is unique and totally Australian.
Australian Football is the template of modern football having moved from unorganised scraps of England and schoolboy exercises
to community football, played by the general community in regular competition with clubs and leagues.
This is because Australia was the richest country per head of population at that time and the first country were workers were freed from working on a Saturday hence the establishment of the great Saturday afternoon tradition of playing and watching Australian Football.

I truly cannot understand why all Australians aren't proud of our Australian game.
It is considered traitoric for Australians not to support Australian sporting teams in the international arena
yet it is bizarre that so many decide to not to recognise the position of Australian Football as Australia's unique and indigenous code.
I don't care if you are attracted to the game or not, internationally we should be promoting our game as a point of difference,
an attraction, that the rest of the world doesn't have like we have.
There is an attraction in going to the U.S.A. and watching NFL, MLB and NBA.
There is an attraction in going to Canada and watching CFL, and NHL.
There is an attraction in going to Ireland and watching GAA.

FFS be proud of your country and one of it's achievements.

 

[Macca180]

The locals weren't playing any sort of football on a Cricket oval when the first fleet arrived despite the claims of some.
Tom Wills went to Rugby School in England where he played Cricket and Rugby.
The truth is that all football codes have their origins in the British Isles. A fact some people struggle with

FFS be proud of your country and one of it's achievements.

lol... proud of it??? How can you be proud of something you dislike because it is a threat.

Dude is a troll.

 

[RedV3x]

Dude is a troll.

Not only that, but a boring troll.
I've lost count of the number of times he's posted the same thing... only to be shot down.....again.

 

[RedV3x]

BBT you were parotting some concerns about female football participation in W.A.

well can you explain this 2017 Participation Figures - Sports Industry AU

which shows female football participation (2017 but i don't think that matters much) as:

Total 463,364
W.A. 92,761
S.A. 102,518
Qld 100,841
Victoria 108,021

So IMO on these figures, Queensland is doing extremely well, W.A. and S.A. as expected and Victoria well below expectations on a population basis.
NSW, by a process of eleimination was doing O.K.