A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[Colonial]

Tell me, if they were treated fairly, and over, say the next 10-20 years their results were average (average ladder position of 9.5), do you really think Sydney would be not in need of success?

Have a national premier juniors and reserve comp instead of victorian based one and then we can start to talk about fair.

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[madmug]

Yeah, nah, that's not what I said. You can disagree with someone's position without misrepresenting them

.

Its his MO.

Get use to it

 

[madmug]

Nope, what the game needs more is a more elite level to aspire to. We been robbed of state of origin which is highest level of game and seen club levels diluted. If anything the game needs something higher level, not more of the same level or more exhibition stuff.

SOO was 'exhibition' stuff. Fun to watch, but thats what it was.

I use to like proper State games, but the AFL fkt that up to.

I dont see how 'club levels' have been diluted. We have a bigger population, more elite training in NSW/Qld. Even WA has grown a lot & still only has 2 teams, so where do those kids go?

 

[FootyJunkie]

In 2042 yes, AFL will expand to other areas before then.

I reckon the AFL are going to push hard for North Queensland in about 10 years time.

 

[Gigantor]

I find it hard to accept that any footy supporters are going to be thrilled at the notion of going beyond 18 clubs.

 

[Kwality]

I hope you notice the bare seats at home when you play too. Average crowds this year of 36,000 in a 43,000 seat stadium and all.

39,000 seats all paid for is a different problem to clubs that can not pull a crowd in footy heartland States, as we all know, just some choose to ignore.

The seasons seating paid for but not used remains a problem despite various clubs addressing it.

 

[Gigantor]

39,000 seats all paid for is a different problem to clubs that can not pull a crowd in footy heartland States, as we all know, just some choose to ignore.

The seasons seating paid for but not used remains a problem despite various clubs addressing it.

I'm not sure why anyone would have a go at West Coast, stadium completely sold out for every game at the start of the season, long waiting list for seating membership, etc, etc.

 

[Kwality]

You don't think losing members to the AFL hurts club finances?



What you pay in equalisation in a year is less than what Vic clubs effectively paid to the AFL every time they had a game at Docklands.

Your contribution to the league is pocket change by comparison.

Typically you offer no facts, e.g the failure to put the bums on seats (by clubs that run the old State based model needing 2 x clubs supporters to make break even).
THE AFL subsidy to these clubs must continue unabated, they still wont pull a crowd.

And the AFL Members club problem that applies to only some Vic clubs, its up to those clubs to deal with, the only club to call the AFL on it is Collingwood, these CLAYTONS style members telsor, what has your mob said when you raised it? You haven't telsor, have you ....

 

[Kwality]

Gave me a giggle. Akin to how it felt finding a moment of agreeing with Johnny Howard. Just so wrong inside.

Look at the numbnuts who haven't been able to lead since Howard (or Hawke before him ) - you'd be proud of them all !!
No talent between the 4 of them & their rusted on followers.

 

[Kwality]

Nah, season over. Let the players mentally refresh and enjoy their break.

Pre-season when they been training for months and keen to play is ideal time before the real club seasons begin. International cricket season over. Early March perfect time to give State of Origin football it's own place in the sporting calendar. The elite players off playing for their state and the lesser lights playing regional practice games with their clubs. Two or three weeks, financially get fair dinkum about it and have the final about mid March and 2 more weeks of one final practice match for each club before the AFL club season begins.

Origin as a practice match, and you are dinkum, fair dinkum unbelievable !!

 

[Garlic muncher]

So i guess the question is this .....
What are key metrics for the consideration of a new team in Sydney ?

25k of members and 20k rocking up each week at GWS games ?

We could only be 5 years away from that

We know that SW Sydney will not get down on their knees to beg for a club, the game must be taken to them, like how GWS was formed

People from SW Sydney will not travel outside their area in great numbers to see sporting contests, that view would be historically accurate of Sydney.

The area unlike WS does not have a strong NRL presence in terms of actual NRL games.

 

[NoobPie]

Origin as a practice match, and you are dinkum, fair dinkum unbelievable !!

We don't agree often but I think we are in agreeable on this

The only way to make origin work imo is:

-to make it post season
-to pay the players very well and allow them the option to start preseason later

Preseason or mid season it will be seen as a distraction

 

[jatz14]

So Sydney doesn't need help, but they get it, and even with it, and the flow on benefits of it (more on field success, more marketable for sponsors etc through both winning more and TV exposure), and even with all that, their finances are on the low side of average.

Yeah, clearly they don't need any help and it has no effect...



and that doesn't help Sydney in any way?

Tell me, if they were treated fairly, and over, say the next 10-20 years their results were average (average ladder position of 9.5), do you really think Sydney would be not in need of success?

Didn't say it didn't help them or that it had no effect. Read, think. The argument was that a reason we were not getting a third Sydney team was because even the Swans are not capable of standing on their own two feet.

Swans are perfectly capable of standing on their own, that they are not is because of what the AFL want, not because they think Swans will fall over.

In the code 'wars' the Swans and GWS are the beach head, Melbourne, Perth are rear echelon. Resources get poured into the beach head, that's were the action is, that's where gains are made.

Its just how it is.

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[footyfan1978]

Origin as a practice match, and you are dinkum, fair dinkum unbelievable !!

ha ha.
No Bobby, the full fair dinkum game. Leave the practice stuff for the kiddies playing in the regional club practice matches.

 

[telsor]

Didn't say it didn't help them or that it had no effect. Read, think. The argument was that a reason we were not getting a third Sydney team was because even the Swans are not capable of standing on their own two feet.

Swans are perfectly capable of standing on their own, that they are not is because of what the AFL want, not because they think Swans will fall over.

In the code 'wars' the Swans and GWS are the beach head, Melbourne, Perth are rear echelon. Resources get poured into the beach head, that's were the action is, that's where gains are made.

Its just how it is.

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a) and if it was purely off field support, I'd be all in favor.

b) without it, they would indeed fall over and die...again. Sydney fans have proven time and again that they're bandwagoners, so the AFL props them up on and off field in order to keep the bandwagon rolling. Drop down to the lower reaches of the ladder and they'd collapse...again.

 

[footyfan1978]

So i guess the question is this .....
What are key metrics for the consideration of a new team in Sydney ?

25k of members and 20k rocking up each week at GWS games ?

Not even close. GWS have been financially independent a good decade with no problems and have grown to such a level they have outgrown their present small ground and have built a much bigger one and command as big a crowd to regular home games like Sydney can. Both need to be strong for some time to prove beyond doubt the NSW market is stable and signs of people not even able to get tickets to some games. Players being drafted from New South Wales is reaching a point where Callum Mills and Isaac Heeney type draftees is starting to occur much more readily in other traditional non-football market regions. Then we know there is potential for another club as the talent pool of draft has increased and the people wanting to watch has grown in NSW to command another club existing.

The first sign has got to be GWS and Sydney regularly selling out home games and it not just rare events.

 

[footyfan1978]

SOO was 'exhibition' stuff. Fun to watch, but thats what it was.

I use to like proper State games, but the AFL fkt that up to.

I use to like the real proper state games too. They did fkt it up by playing it at times that were unsuitable and relegated it to exhibition status. Post season it will be like that or mid-season too now that football is so professional not enough players take part. However make it a stand alone tournament beyond club football in terms of money support and sponsorship and not at time of club season or post season. Pre-season about a month before the club stuff starts is ideal. Make it massive, financially reward clubs that get more representatives so they not not fighting against players taking part. It is something the AFL should be going full tilt at as the most elite level of game to take part in. Neglecting it one of the worst things I seen in last couple of decades.

 

[madmug]

a) and if it was purely off field support, I'd be all in favor.

b) without it, they would indeed fall over and die...again. Sydney fans have proven time and again that they're bandwagoners, so the AFL props them up on and off field in order to keep the bandwagon rolling. Drop down to the lower reaches of the ladder and they'd collapse...again.

Well if the AFL stopped propping up so many Victorian teams, they'd fall over as well. Those teams arent fighting on 'the beachhead', they are fighting each other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its a crazy situation.
Ah, but thats politics folks. It aint business, thats for sure.

 

[telsor]

Well if the AFL stopped propping up so many Victorian teams, they'd fall over as well. Those teams arent fighting on 'the beachhead', they are fighting each other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its a crazy situation.
Ah, but thats politics folks. It aint business, thats for sure.

If the AFL stopped ripping so much money off them in AFL members, and having them buy a ground for the AFL, the AFL wouldn't need to 'prop them up'. The AFL takes more than they give to those clubs.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Not even close. GWS have been financially independent a good decade with no problems and have grown to such a level they have outgrown their present small ground and have built a much bigger one and command as big a crowd to regular home games like Sydney can. Both need to be strong for some time to prove beyond doubt the NSW market is stable and signs of people not even able to get tickets to some games. Players being drafted from New South Wales is reaching a point where Callum Mills and Isaac Heeney type draftees is starting to occur much more readily in other traditional non-football market regions. Then we know there is potential for another club as the talent pool of draft has increased and the people wanting to watch has grown in NSW to command another club existing.

The first sign has got to be GWS and Sydney regularly selling out home games and it not just rare events.

Well i find that bizarre, are you saying don't plan for a 3rd team until all these metrics are met.

I would have thought that the AFL have metrics and once those are hit, then begin planning in earnest, i imagine they already have some liquid plans or thoughts ATM, if they don't i reckon they may get a few from this thread

The thing about Sydney which most people don't get is that Sydney people will not travel in great numbers, therefore a 3rd team must not be close to the city, there is already 2 teams with stadiums close.

The AFL needs to plan for a boutique stadium in the SW of Sydney, that means plenty of work in greasing palms and politicking with cricket, local, state and federal authorities.

Whether or not GWS expands the stadium and locks out fans will do SFA for the million + people who live in the SW of Sydney, GWS has nothing to do with them in reality, only a team in SW Sydney will significantly grow the game there.

 

[footyfan1978]

Well i find that bizarre, are you saying don't plan for a 3rd team until all these metrics are met.

I did not say about plans. I mean if those things are achieved the signs are evident a 3rd team up there can be created. You can plan all you like. It is the doing that matters. We are so far off it, it is not funny. I know it is a pet project in your head and that is great but reality is we are a long , long way off.

You also seem a bit off the rails not getting GWS are there for Western regions and down towards ACT. That is why they play there too.

You still seem to not get how important it was for AFL to lock in a game each week in NSW and Queensland.
That is why the went out on a limb to get GWS and Gold Coast up when many see it as so risky and some even now consider it will not work and want Gold Coast and Brisbane merged to start with. It was massive quantum leap to make sure there is a game each week in these markets. Now the next few decades is about bedding down these expansions and making sure they work for long term and will not fall over at first challenges when they are not up in top half of ladder. When Swans were cellar dwellars with Gary Buckenara their coach in early 1990's it was truly bleak outlook for Swans. We have come along way from there but still much work just to even make sure two clubs in NSW market stands on it's own two feet and truly adding talent like Mills and Heeney regularly to draft pools in future. Until we got all that bedded down more clubs up there is a long distant dream. Not a 5 year dream, you are passionate about in your head like a religious zealot. Mind, you, I do like your passion, just think it is out of touch with how far we are from that time we can truly look towards the game being super strong in NSW and Queensland.

 

[madmug]

If the AFL stopped ripping so much money off them in AFL members, and having them buy a ground for the AFL, the AFL wouldn't need to 'prop them up'. The AFL takes more than they give to those clubs.

Maybe, & as Ive said the AFL take a lot more out of Tasmania than they put in, & we dont even have a team!!!

The Melbourne teams can hardly complain. Only 2 made profits last year. It shows the over population of teams in a tight market. having to fight against each other shouldnt be happening. Anyway they are establishment so have the right to be as inefficient, lazy & unprofitable as they like.

The AFL, & the 4 clubs who made money will prop them up.

WA3 & Tas1

 

[madmug]

Well i find that bizarre, are you saying don't plan for a 3rd team until all these metrics are met.

I would have thought that the AFL have metrics and once those are hit, then begin planning in earnest, i imagine they already have some liquid plans or thoughts ATM, if they don't i reckon they may get a few from this thread

The thing about Sydney which most people don't get is that Sydney people will not travel in great numbers, therefore a 3rd team must not be close to the city, there is already 2 teams with stadiums close.

The AFL needs to plan for a boutique stadium in the SW of Sydney, that means plenty of work in greasing palms and politicking with cricket, local, state and federal authorities.

Whether or not GWS expands the stadium and locks out fans will do SFA for the million + people who live in the SW of Sydney, GWS has nothing to do with them in reality, only a team in SW Sydney will significantly grow the game there.

Cricket NSW wont go building suburban stadiums. They dont need to. They are spoiled for choice as it is. Their remaining A grade grounds are spread around & cater for the suburban needs, even state ODD 50 over matches.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I did not say about plans. I mean if those things are achieved the signs are evident a 3rd team up there can be created. You can plan all you like. It is the doing that matters. We are so far off it, it is not funny. I know it is a pet project in your head and they is great but reality is we are a long , long way off.

You also seem a bit off the rails not getting GWS are there for Western regions and down towards ACT. That is why they play there too.

You still seem to not get how important it was for AFL to lock in a game each week in NSW and Queensland.
That is why the went out on a limb to get GWS and Gold Coast up when many see it as so risky and some even now consider it will not work and want Gold Coast and Brisbane merged to start with. It was massive quantum leap to make sure there is a game each week in these markets. Now the next few decades is about bedding down these expansions and making sure they work for long term and will not fall over at first challenges when they are not up in top half of ladder. When Swans were cellar dwellars with Gary Buckenara their coach in early 1990's it was truly bleak outlook for Swans. We have come along way from there but still much work just to even make sure two clubs in NSW market stands on it's own two feet and truly adding talent like Mills and Heeney regularly to draft pools in future. Until we got all that bedded down more clubs up there is a long distant dream. Not a 5 year dream, you are passionate about in your head like a religious zealot. Mind, you, I do like your passion, just think it is out of touch with how far we are from that time we can truly look towards the game being super strong in NSW and Queensland.

I swear i think about other things and also swear i am not off the rails , but you are right it is a pet project and i have been putting some effort into it and keeping this thread alive!

I think people are underestimating the AFL on this, they have a foothold in WS, they will turn that foothold into a base for further advance, that advance will come in the form of another team, nothing can be surer, that team will come quicker than most people realise and IMO a quicker time frame than between the Swans and GWS.

IMO the AFL see Sydney as more important than any other market bar of course Melbourne.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Cricket NSW wont go building suburban stadiums. They dont need to. They are spoiled for choice as it is. Their remaining A grade grounds are spread around & cater for the suburban needs, even state ODD 50 over matches.

They did with Blacktown.

If cricket can get a stadium in SW Sydney, that they can utilise, why wouldn't they do it ?.

SW Sydney is not spoiled for choices at all as far as stadiums go, they actually have nothing.