A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[Garlic muncher]

So that makes 87 mens teams all up on my count.

Yep, and add in womens and colts and you have another 45 or so teams ( 26 women's and 20 or so colts)

Depending on the number of colts teams there will be about 30/35 more senior teams in Brisbane compared to Sydney and probably plenty more club ( team) growth available.

 

[NoobPie]

Yep, and add in womens and colts and you have another 45 or so teams ( 26 women's and 20 or so colts)

Depending on the number of colts teams there will be about 30/35 more senior teams in Brisbane compared to Sydney and probably plenty more club ( team) growth available.

It looks like the bulk of the teams in division 4 and 5 in Queensland are 3rd teams and they play on Friday nights

 

[Garlic muncher]

It looks like the bulk of the teams in division 4 and 5 in Queensland are 3rd teams and they play on Friday nights

Just did a rough count of mens clubs in Sydney and Brisbane.

45 mens clubs in Brisbane

25 mens clubs in Sydney

Quite a disparity there, i wonder how feasible and long term it is having 5 or 6 senior teams in a club.

Brisbane's comp is structured better with seniors/reserves and pro/rel and more room for clubs to put in 3rds, 4ths etc.

Not sure what they are going to do in Sydney, the space does not seem to be there for new clubs.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Just did a rough count of mens clubs in Sydney and Brisbane.

45 mens clubs in Brisbane

25 mens clubs in Sydney

Quite a disparity there, i wonder how feasible and long term it is having 5 or 6 senior teams in a club.

Brisbane's comp is structured better with seniors/reserves and pro/rel and more room for clubs to put in 3rds, 4ths etc.

Not sure what they are going to do in Sydney, the space does not seem to be there for new clubs.

In Syd. in winter in the suburbs, are there many ovals not being used?

 

[madmug]

In Syd. in winter in the suburbs, are there many ovals not being used?

Probably cricket grounds. I remember thinking about footy on so many of the ones I saw. but so many of them are so small. They'd be good for junior footy.

 

[Garlic muncher]

In Syd. in winter in the suburbs, are there many ovals not being used?

I think madmug is right, the ovals are used but not big enough or by other sports, who are not going to share or let go, no matter what their participation is.

Remember the Birchgrove saga.

Sydney mens football has 63 teams playing across 24 clubs

Brisbane mens has 87 teams across 46 clubs

Working on a rough % Sydney clubs have 2.6 mens team per club

Brisbane has 1.9 teams per club

Brisbane is far better placed to grow

Sydney in areas that have a decent football culture around the North shore and city and Eastern Suburbs appear hamstrung by a oversupply of teams and lack of clubs and space.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Junior RL nos. in decline in Sthn. Macarthur region & throughout Syd.

In 2017, there will be a forced merger, due to declining nos. in all the U13 -U17's First Division, between the CBDJRFL & WSDJRL. This merger is likely to significantly increase travelling times for JRLFC's throughout southern & western Syd.

Junior contact RU regn. nos are also in decline throughout Syd.

It would be interesting to know if the RL "plummetting nos." are directly benefiting AF -ie what sport are these players switching to?

http:www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...l/news-story/10981dd31ed7ad0df6a3319acc002768

 

[Garlic muncher]

Junior RL nos. in decline in Sthn. Macarthur region & throughout Syd.

In 2017, there will be a forced merger, due to declining nos. in all the U13 -U17's First Division, between the CBDJRFL & WSDJRL. This merger is likely to significantly increase travelling times for JRLFC's throughout southern & western Syd.

Junior contact RU regn. nos are also in decline throughout Syd.

http:www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...l/news-story/10981dd31ed7ad0df6a3319acc002768

It's not something new and it is not something that IMO that they can turn around, it has something to do with changing demos, changing attitudes, the Polynesian influence at junior level and probably a few other things.

The SW of Sydney is where I see the 3rd Sydney team, the AFL should be all over that area ATM, it is a massive untapped area and a hell of a long way from where the Giants play in the inner West.

 

[BringBackTorps]

It's not something new and it is not something that IMO that they can turn around, it has something to do with changing demos, changing attitudes, the Polynesian influence at junior level and probably a few other things.

The SW of Sydney is where I see the 3rd Sydney team, the AFL should be all over that area ATM, it is a massive untapped area and a hell of a long way from where the Giants play in the inner West.

The article quotes Wests Tigers Manager, S. Spence, who indicates there is also a shortage of adult volunteers in Syd. club JRL -& this is causing "clubs to fall over", which also puts downward pressure on regd. contact RL nos.
The 100,000 + unpaid & unsung volunteers in community AF are often overlooked in their role, which has made AF the pre-eminent code in Australia

The NRL bought out the National Touch Rugby organisation, & its database, in 2014, IIRC.
It was speculated that the main reason it did this was to promote contact RL to Touch's huge player base (over 500,000, & mainly in schools) -& to boost "RL's"playing nos. Notwithstanding that many touch players might prefer RU, or have little interest in either of the CONTACT rugby codes, this strategy appears non-productive at the moment.

Anyone know what the jnr. State League the article refers to is, how & when it will operate, & why it is believed this State League will reverse the ongoing decline in jnr. RL nos.?

I understand snr. contact RL & RU nos. are also in an ongoing decline in Syd., & country NSW.

In 2017, there will be court cases concerning NRL liability for the lifting tackle on MacKinnon broken neck tragedy; alleged mistreatment/brain injury by Newcastle concerning J. McManus'concussion; alleged matchfixing involving Manly/ Parra. players/brothel owners etc; alleged high quantity illegal drug dealing by a high profile former NRL player.
These very significant cases, likely to be covered extensively by the media, are damaging to RL's image & to increasing its regd. contact participation nos.
There are also several cases concerning allegations of Dom.Violence against NRL players -which, whilst a very small % of players, tarnish the code.
The ex-female partners of Cartwright & Simona, who have made disturbing allegations about unwanted pregnancies etc, might further add to journalists' (eg Mascord) description of the NRL as having a "downmarket"image problem.

Some RL commentators (IIRC, inc. S. Mascord) have stated the matchfixing charges, if proved, could cause MORE damage to RL than the Superleague war of the 90's.
The current NRL $1.9 billion 5 year rights issue (which allows more money to be spent on GR, & increasing recruitment of Aust. & NZ elite jnr. RU talent) & probable expansion to Brisbane 2 & Perth after 2023 should, however, provide a big boost for RL.

 

[BringBackTorps]

Interesting co-operation between "rival"sports in NSW & the ACT -with unknown future ramifications.

Little Athletics has c. 100,000 participants around Aust., generally 5 -14 y.o., mainly occurs Sat. mornings, Oct - March; but cross country (distance running) is usually April - June. It is a very well regarded program, with the main emphasis on individuals recording their OWN best time and/or best height / weight / distance.

A potentially very significant official link-up, & full cross-promotion, between AF & Little Athletics in NSW & the ACT has been announced on 22.2.2017. If successful, it could be a precursor to similar arrangements in Qld. & throughout Aust.
I assume all sports would be delighted having an official link-up with Little Athletics, & its many obviously athletic male & female (each c. 50%) jnrs. I am not aware if other sports have similar mutual arrangements with LA - nor how did the AFL become involved with this very cosy arrangement. Is this a very rare case of "reverse code wars" in NSW &the ACT? Anyone knows other examples?

Indirectly, there is also an AF/ athletics "convergence"with some Syd. private schools secondary students.
At many of these schools, Sat. sport is compulsory -though the students choose the school sport that is on offer. My understanding is that an increasing number of very athletic students choose cross-country Sat. school sport -& play Syd. local Club AF on Sundays ie forego school RU completely. In the past, many of these very good athletes would have preferred Sat. school RU to school athletics or Club AF -& this trend is causing some consternation to RU afficianados (Can't play school Sat. RU & Sunday Club AF -Syd. private schools don't allow it, boys usually to sore to play both).

The best athletes in Syd. & Brisbane private schools traditionally, & still now, are generally playing RU as their preferred sport. This tradition might be slowly changing, with Syd. & Brisbane private school RU nos. recently having a significant decline (but still well above AF in private schools).

There are some Govt. Secondary "Sport Schools" in Syd. which, in addition to normal school subjects, offer specialist/elite sport training across a range of different sports. AF has been added to the specialist sport offered by some of these schools recently.

www.aflnswact.com.au/blog/2017/02/22/afl-nswact-team-little-athletics-nsw-act-2017/
(Then click on HOME, then click on News Archive, then click on news item dated 22.2.2017 for full report)

 

[Ian Dunross]

The second last post by you Bringbacktorps is why I believe a 3rd team in Sydney is not too far away

While AFL is not scandal free, it is chalk and cheese compared to RL

This stuff damages a code, maybe not felt tomorrow, but in 10 years time

The numbers you talk about in your second post are really interesting

 

[Garlic muncher]

The second last post by you Bringbacktorps is why I believe a 3rd team in Sydney is not too far away

While AFL is not scandal free, it is chalk and cheese compared to RL

This stuff damages a code, maybe not felt tomorrow, but in 10 years time

The numbers you talk about in your second post are really interesting

The problem Highlighted in Sydney is a distinct lack of space for grass roots to grow, the average amount of senior teams per club is very high and probably has reached in many areas about as many as you can expect at one club.

This could be a big issue in getting a third team - no point having one if the grass roots underneath it don't have grounds, the space issue was one of the reasons why the NSW AFL wanted a ground around Balmain years ago.

There are already clubs around the inner suburbs that have a cap on the amount of junior players

 

[BringBackTorps]

The problem Highlighted in Sydney is a distinct lack of space for grass roots to grow, the average amount of senior teams per club is very high and probably has reached in many areas about as many as you can expect at one club.

This could be a big issue in getting a third team - no point having one if the grass roots underneath it don't have grounds, the space issue was one of the reasons why the NSW AFL wanted a ground around Balmain years ago.

There are already clubs around the inner suburbs that have a cap on the amount of junior players

I understand there are many underutilised RL & RU winter grounds. When there are two of these together (so combined area would allow AF to be played), or one RL/RU ground on its own (but able to incorporate a bigger parkland footprint), then some rationalisation would be required.
The ongoing decline in RU & RL regd. nos. is incontrovertible. Syd. public ovals & facilities must be allocated fairly, based on demand -everyone pays their Council rates, not just one or two declining sports.

The refusal to allocate sufficient public grounds to AF, that occured from the 1880's -1914 in Syd., would be widely "howled down"now. AF's following in Syd., per capita, is much stronger in 2017 -the backroom RU deals would not survive now.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I understand there are many underutilised RL & RU winter grounds. When there are two of these together (so combined area would allow AF to be played), or one RL/RU ground on its own (but able to incorporate a bigger parkland footprint), then some rationalisation would be required.
The ongoing decline in RU & RL regd. nos. is incontrovertible. Syd. public ovals & facilities must be allocated fairly, based on demand -everyone pays their Council rates, not just one or two declining sports.

The refusal to allocate sufficient public grounds to AF, that occured from the 1880's -1914 in Syd., would be widely "howled down"now. AF's following in Syd., per capita, is much stronger in 2017 -the backroom RU deals would not survive now.

Not so sure that is true, we only need to look at the Birchgrove Oval saga to understand how the media can manipulate things and public opinion.

They still need to tread quite carefully in the quest to get more green space.

 

[Leeda]

on behalf of the rest of the clubs in the afl I say 'rise up and cause havoc with this decision'

surely it is a jest of monumental proportions till everything gets settled.

just starting a revolution when it is needed. of course it may or may not be true but the system allows for gil to have to re chew this issue and
carry on.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Fairfield City to unveil plans for boutique football stadium for A-League expansion


The council held conversations with NSW Rugby League, AFL and Football Federation Australia to attract professional sports to the precinct, though the priority is to establish links between its grassroots football program and the professional tier.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...um-for-aleague-expansion-20170322-gv44az.html

 

[bombersfan4000]

Fairfield City to unveil plans for boutique football stadium for A-League expansion


The council held conversations with NSW Rugby League, AFL and Football Federation Australia to attract professional sports to the precinct, though the priority is to establish links between its grassroots football program and the professional tier.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...um-for-aleague-expansion-20170322-gv44az.html

Another future ghost stadium for Sydney! If only other state government & councils were so happy to hand out money

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Another future ghost stadium for Sydney! If only other state government & councils were so happy to hand out money

Hardly

So far they are only talking $20m to renovate the existing soccor pitch to a 10-15k venue.

Even this is contingent on gettinv state govt support

The fact they dont have numbers on costs (from what i could find from a quick google) shows this is just a bug thought bubble

 

[madmug]

Hardly

So far they are only talking $20m to renovate the existing soccor pitch to a 10-15k venue.

Even this is contingent on gettinv state govt support

The fact they dont have numbers on costs (from what i could find from a quick google) shows this is just a bug thought bubble

Damn those bug thought bubbles

Their is talk of a 10-15k rectangular stadium here. I dont see much political support thus far, but they might. I see it as a waste of money & effort. But thats just me & people I mix with.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

If the A-League try and embark on taking some AFL heartland in Tassie, could it be the straw that breaks the camels back?

 

[BringBackTorps]

Good to see you back, GM!

I am surprised that an A League quality ground, with a capacity of c. 10,000 (I am assuming it is mainly standing on the new hill created by earthmoving machinery etc., with a small grandstand) could be built for only $20,000,000.
It is my understanding Ivanhoe Amateurs FC (Melb.) had new club rooms built ( & NOTHING else) in late 2016 -& the cost of this building (council already owned the land) was "only" $1,800,000!

I am very curious to know if the AFL has registered these names with the appropriate govt. agencies:-
South Sydney Football Club (&/or SS Australian FC)
South West Sydney etc.
South Sydney Illawarra etc.
South Sydney Canberra etc.
We would expect the AFL to own such names -before any other code might grab them. The AFL would be worried IF a 3rd Sth Syd. A League team would produce a NET increase in crowds for the A League.

There are only c. 6 adult male AF clubs in Sth/ SW Syd., slow growth; jnr clubs & Auskick are growing, Bankstown jnr. FC has re-emerged after its parental internal bickering; St George, Camden, & Maroubra expanding AF strongly etc.

The upcoming police court action over alleged match-fixing by NRL players, according to Maschord & other NRL journalists, could be a public relations/fan disaster for the NRL if substantiated -worse than the Super League war.
NRL players are much stronger & heavier than 20 years ago. C. 20% of NRL players are NZ citizens, c. 40%+ (& growing) are of Islander background.
Cashed-up euro. & Japanese RU comps. are predicted to increase their raids on the best Aust. RL & RU elite talent.
Multiple off-field issues are a regular occurrence -much more than in the AFL
All these changes/challenges offer the AFL a strategic opportunity to expand in Sth./SW Syd./ Illawarra in 10 -15 years.





Fairfield City to unveil plans for boutique football stadium for A-League expansion


The council held conversations with NSW Rugby League, AFL and Football Federation Australia to attract professional sports to the precinct, though the priority is to establish links between its grassroots football program and the professional tier.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...um-for-aleague-expansion-20170322-gv44az.html
[/QUOTE]

 

[Garlic muncher]

We know the Swans zone in Sydney produces AFL players and has upwards of 330 junior teams in it which will throw up academy draftees and moving forward may throw up a few more, in comparison the GWS zone in Sydney is far smaller and i am pretty sure GWS has yet to draft from it.

Just to give people some idea - GWS zone.

2012 - 67 junior teams from under 9's to 16's

2016 - 128 junior teams from under 9's to 17's

2017 - 145 junior teams from under 9's to 17's including this year 4 under 18's girls teams.

http://aflsj.com.au/fixtures-results/

The Swans zone in Sydney also has the bulk of the Independent schools comp in it, which has also been growing year upon year, the linked site does not have the normal schools fixture yet but a fixture for a gala day which is played soon, i am guessing that will be bigger again this year.

 

[NoobPie]

If the A-League try and embark on taking some AFL heartland in Tassie, could it be the straw that breaks the camels back?

As in the a league's tender verterbrae?

 

[BringBackTorps]

We know the Swans zone in Sydney produces AFL players and has upwards of 330 junior teams in it which will throw up academy draftees and moving forward may throw up a few more, in comparison the GWS zone in Sydney is far smaller and i am pretty sure GWS has yet to draft from it.

Just to give people some idea - GWS zone.

2012 - 67 junior teams from under 9's to 16's

2016 - 128 junior teams from under 9's to 17's

2017 - 145 junior teams from under 9's to 17's including this year 4 under 18's girls teams.

http://aflsj.com.au/fixtures-results/

The Swans zone in Sydney also has the bulk of the Independent schools comp in it, which has also been growing year upon year, the linked site does not have the normal schools fixture yet but a fixture for a gala day which is played soon, i am guessing that will be bigger again this year.

It will be interesting to measure how the greatly increased profile of female AF will resonate amongst Syd. sporty females in the next 4-5 years. Will their regd. female AF nos. approach the huge SE Qld. female nos.? Female AF could be the entree for Syd. families to be directly exposed to AF. -& their male siblings? Surprisingly, there has been some reasonable coverage by the Syd. based media into NSW re the AFLW.
It was a setback that not all GWS AFLW games were telecast in Syd, and played at inconvenient times - hopefully rectified in 2018. How big will female contact RU 7's become in Syd. -& will many transfer to AF later?

The NSW govt. sport interschool AF comps. (eg Paul Kelly Cup etc) are also attracting more primary & secondary schools in Syd. -any info. re 2017?

RL is obviously very strong in the Sth. & SW Syd. (soccer, also, huge). AF generally weak there, & in Wollongong, still in 2017 -outside of a few pockets.

The Kings School, Parramatta, The Armadale School, & St Augustine's, Brookvale all resolutely RU -no place for AF (despite the latter having strong regd. AF nos. in its area).
Catholic schools still generally RL, touch rugby, & soccer. St Joseph's Hunters Hill still not permitting students up to Yr. 10 inc. to play AF, even though AF has strong nos. in its area.
The Shore School ( which has introduced AF), Nth Syd., has just sent a RU team, with much fanfare & expense, to the Rugby School in England to celebrate the school's 450th anniversary -the cultural cringe still thriving in 2017, par excellance.

 

[Garlic muncher]

It will be interesting to measure how the greatly increased profile of female AF will resonate amongst Syd. sporty females in the next 4-5 years. Will their regd. female AF nos. approach the huge SE Qld. female nos.? Female AF could be the entree for Syd. families to be directly exposed to AF. -& their male siblings? Surprisingly, there has been some reasonable coverage by the Syd. based media into NSW re the AFLW.
It was a setback that not all GWS AFLW games were telecast in Syd, and played at inconvenient times - hopefully rectified in 2018. How big will female contact RU 7's become in Syd. -& will many transfer to AF later?

The NSW govt. sport interschool AF comps. (eg Paul Kelly Cup etc) are also attracting more primary & secondary schools in Syd. -any info. re 2017?

RL is obviously very strong in the Sth. & SW Syd. (soccer, also, huge). AF generally weak there, & in Wollongong, still in 2017 -outside of a few pockets.

The Kings School, Parramatta, The Armadale School, & St Augustine's, Brookvale all resolutely RU -no place for AF (despite the latter having strong regd. AF nos. in its area).
Catholic schools still generally RL, touch rugby, & soccer. St Joseph's Hunters Hill still not permitting students up to Yr. 10 inc. to play AF, even though AF has strong nos. in its area.
The Shore School ( which has introduced AF), Nth Syd., has just sent a RU team, with much fanfare & expense, to the Rugby School in England to celebrate the school's 450th anniversary -the cultural cringe still thriving in 2017, par excellance.

It is a slow process and sometimes it is 2 steps forward one step back etc etc.

Good progress in WS, although i was hoping they would be up around 170 teams this year.

If GWS is a 20 year project to build self sufficiency then i guess the community football built below it is as well.

I would have thought that grass roots football in Sydney is as strong as it has even been in living memory, maybe not at senior level but at junior level it would be.