A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

Pippen94

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View attachment 743555

Unless you think everything east of the Blue Mountains is "The East", then maybe you should give up the ridiculous agenda.

This stuff really isn't hard to check btw. You must be one of the most low effort trolls out there.
Membership attached to auskick - west is where they run that. Membership numbers rubbish - club actually loses money on this. Never seen a gws jersey in Parramatta.
 

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abcde12345

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Membership attached to auskick - west is where they run that. Membership numbers rubbish - club actually loses money on this. Never seen a gws jersey in Parramatta.
I also have no idea why you keep bringing this up as such a bad thing.

Marketing should be a huge expense for a new business. This is how businesses grow. This is doubly so for a football club, which is a passion product, as opposed to a traditional consumer product. It takes money to get people to come have a look, and it takes time for people to build up a passion for the product.

If they aren't reinvesting everything they can into marketing then they are making a mistake.
 

Pippen94

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I also have no idea why you keep bringing this up as such a bad thing.

Marketing should be a huge expense for a new business. This is how businesses grow. This is doubly so for a football club, which is a passion product, as opposed to a traditional consumer product. It takes money to get people to come have a look, and it takes time for people to build up a passion for the product.

If they aren't reinvesting everything they can into marketing then they are making a mistake.
Purpose of Membership is to fund club. Losing money on it means club is just trying to build number to appear bigger than they are.
 

Ned_Flanders

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Purpose of Membership is to fund club. Losing money on it means club is just trying to build number to appear bigger than they are.
Yeah, because members don't buy merchandise, reserve seats, buy guest passes, buy tickets to club functions......

Your trolling is not getting out of first gear today. You got the flu?
 

abcde12345

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Purpose of Membership is to fund club. Losing money on it means club is just trying to build number to appear bigger than they are.
Sure, for an established club.

Did you expect GWS to rock up, charge WCE like amounts for memberships, and make a mint? You're delusional. The whole purpose of the club is to grow the code in an underrepresented area. This is done by making the game accessible to those who have limited experience with it. The club should be running at a loss, and if its not then the AFL is making a massive strategic mistake.

It's absolutely bizarre. People like to sink the boot in because "GWS and GCS have no supporters", but then act like spending money to bring new supporters through the gate is blasphemy.

If you're legitimately an AFL fan, then you are completely contradictory, and have no vision beyond the next 5 minutes. Somehow I doubt that though, which makes me wonder why a soccer/nrl troll wastes their time on an AFL forum. Surely you have better things to do than waste time on a forum of a code you don't like? Pretty sad in my view.
 

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JackFlash

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You would have to lose clubs in Vicotira for that to happen. A 20 team comp is inevitable, with 8 clubs in Vic, 3 each in WA and SA, 3 in NSW, 2 in QLD and 1 Tassie! So which two Vic clubs make way?
 

NoobPie

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If you're legitimately an AFL fan, then you are completely contradictory, and have no vision beyond the next 5 minutes. Somehow I doubt that though, which makes me wonder why a soccer/nrl troll wastes their time on an AFL forum. Surely you have better things to do than waste time on a forum of a code you don't like? Pretty sad in my view.



 

General Giant

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Sure, for an established club.

Did you expect GWS to rock up, charge WCE like amounts for memberships, and make a mint? You're delusional. The whole purpose of the club is to grow the code in an underrepresented area. This is done by making the game accessible to those who have limited experience with it. The club should be running at a loss, and if its not then the AFL is making a massive strategic mistake.

It's absolutely bizarre. People like to sink the boot in because "GWS and GCS have no supporters", but then act like spending money to bring new supporters through the gate is blasphemy.

If you're legitimately an AFL fan, then you are completely contradictory, and have no vision beyond the next 5 minutes. Somehow I doubt that though, which makes me wonder why a soccer/nrl troll wastes their time on an AFL forum. Surely you have better things to do than waste time on a forum of a code you don't like? Pretty sad in my view.
He has never posted in any forums or about anyone else other than the Giants. Not even about his own supposed listed club.

My guess a League fan or alt of someone here.

Wanderers fans wouldnt be dumb enough considering their own crowds and ratings.
 

Johnny Bananas

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But they play out of homebush, players live breakfast point & support comes from east.
Homebush is in the inner west, genius. Which is an area I mentioned. And you accuse me of not knowing geography?

You would have to lose clubs in Vicotira for that to happen. A 20 team comp is inevitable, with 8 clubs in Vic, 3 each in WA and SA, 3 in NSW, 2 in QLD and 1 Tassie! So which two Vic clubs make way?
Zero clubs will make way. Melbourne is growing faster than any other city in Australia and it's not close. Why do you think Adelaide will get a third club? It's a two team town and one of them struggles financially sometimes. Even WA3 is doubtful since there's no grassroots demand for it.
 

abcde12345

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I can see four teams in Sydney one day, if they plan it right. Swans presently have the East, north and the Shire, Giants have the inner west up to Blacktown. That leaves two major areas left - Macarthur and Penrith. Macarthur is growing fast and Penrith has one of the richest NRL clubs out there (mostly from pokies, but popular even so), so there's potential for growth in both places. Macarthur is probably the more attractive location.
Over the very long term, I think 4 teams in Sydney make sense.

The South-West is one such area. It's a major growth pocket, however it is definitely a much poorer region than either of the two current Sydney team areas. Right now, the region only supports the Wests Tigers, and even they only play a limited number of games in the region. Even at a semi-pro level, the South-West region is only represented by a couple of NSWRL clubs. No Shute Shield presence, no BBL, NBL, A-League (although an A-league team is being introduced in the next couple of seasons), NPL or NEAFL presence.

The journey to get a viable club there I imagine would be significantly more difficult than that of GWS. GWS has the advantage of being able to draw from the Inner Western suburbs, which are reasonably wealthy, while it continues to build support in the Outer West. GWS also has the advantage of being based in/near Parramatta, which is a reasonably significant city in its own right. A South-West team I can imagine struggling for support and corporate sponsorship money for a significant amount of time (multi-generational).

Accessibility, even within the South-West, could also be an issue. Liverpool and Campbelltown are not directly connected to each other via train, and there are no lines at all out in Camden.

All these issues make the South-West a pretty distant goal to be honest. All it currently has going for it is the population growth and space availability for a future stadium. This may change though as the prices of inner suburbs continue to push people further out, and the Campbelltown or Liverpool CBDs grow.

The North Shore is another area worth considering. Although it is only expected to modestly grow relative to the South-West, it benefits from being a significantly more wealthy region. Similar to the South-West, it has a limited variety of professional sporting teams, with only Manly being based North of the river. It does, however, host a variety of Shute Shield teams (Gordon, Manly, Northern Suburbs and Warringah if you include the Northern Beaches), a NSWRL team and an NPL team. The North Shore has also produced a number of AFL players, such as Callum Mills.

Again, there are several issues with a North Shore team. The first consideration would be the degree of cannibalisation of the Giants and particularly Swans fanbase that could occur. Following on from that, it would have to be determined if the North Shore is already "saturated" via the Swans and Giants, or if there are actually tangible benefits to a team in the region.

Another consideration is the availability of a ground in the region, particularly one with reasonable accessibility. North Sydney Oval is too small for AFL level games, especially with the 18-a-side format we currently have. Finding another suitable location with accessibility to public transport could be difficult.

You mentioned Penrith, but I don't really see it. Penrith has the issues of the other two regions combined. It doesn't have particularly great accessibility, population projections are only in line with the northern suburbs, it isn't particularly wealthy either individually or from potential corporate partners, and it doesn't have the "football pedigree" that a Northern Suburbs team would have. It also has direct, full time competition from an NRL team. I mentioned how much harder South-West would be than the Giants - I think Penrith region would be that much harder again, with even more limited upside.

There are a few regions outside the metro that have been mentioned, including Central Coast, Illawarra and Newcastle. Again, I struggle to see it. These regions would have the difficulty of a Giants bid, but without the TV money upside (regional areas). Areas that don't benefit from the TV money and massive population growth upsides should be built from the ground up, similar to that of the Tasmania bid.

Canberra would be the next most logical regional area behind Tasmania - however I see it unlikely to happen. The Canberra and Riverina regions are too valuable as talent farms to feed into what is currently the Giants, and in the future will be a South-West team. When we reach a point where these two clubs are at a point where they can stand on their own two feet, then Canberra will get a look. This is subject to change if the demographic trends of Canberra change dramatically - however that would be outside current expectations.

A future with 4 AFL teams across the Sydney metro, dispersed North of the river, in the CBD and East, in the West and in the South-West allows for good representation of the code dispersed across most of the major areas of population, with reasonable room to continue growing all the clubs fanbases. Very long term stuff obviously (particularly that of a South-West team), and many issues to overcome, but it seems the most logical to me.
 

abcde12345

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He has never posted in any forums or about anyone else other than the Giants. Not even about his own supposed listed club.

My guess a League fan or alt of someone here.

Wanderers fans wouldnt be dumb enough considering their own crowds and ratings.
Yeah I'd have to agree.

After looking at some vision of the Wanderers games held at Giants Stadium, and the crowd figures announced at those games, you'd have to be insane to question the figures of the Giants games.
 

JackFlash

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Homebush is in the inner west, genius. Which is an area I mentioned. And you accuse me of not knowing geography?


Zero clubs will make way. Melbourne is growing faster than any other city in Australia and it's not close. Why do you think Adelaide will get a third club? It's a two team town and one of them struggles financially sometimes. Even WA3 is doubtful since there's no grassroots demand for it.
I don't really, i actually think we have too many teams in the compeition as it is. Melbourne is growing alright, but it's growth isn't exactly a good thing IMO. The AFL want a 20 team National League, we might yet still see a merger? Perth is growing very fast, we will see another team over there, it's just a matter of time
 

BringBackTorps

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SMH 25.9.19 M.Bungay

A. Demetriou gives his views on the strong growth of GWS & AF in Sydney- says they are "ahead of schedule", and will have a major impact in Sydney's west in c. 20 years.


The GR AF regd. club player nos. have actually nearly tripled, off a relatively small initial base, in western Sydney since GWS was created. GR soccer is massive in WS.

ACT GR AF regd. club player nos. are close to a record high in 2019.

In 1982, Canberra Raiders joined the NRL: won 3 NRL Premierships, made 5 GF's to 2018. AF lost its pre-eminence to RL, & GR AF club player nos. retreated significantly.
Only after GWS was created in 2012, have GR AF club nos. had a renaissance & good growth in the ACT - & now, again, surpass RL GR club player nos.

The NRL, however, still probably has a greater no. of followers, cf no. of AFL followers in the ACT. I suspect that a club in the AFL, named "South Sydney Canberra" (by 2035? 6/5 split of games) would probably result in the AFL again having the greater following after a few years.


ABC.net 26.9.19

This is a good summary of how GWS has emerged from the initial thrashings, built a good culture, & has found success.

 
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Johnny Bananas

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Another consideration is the availability of a ground in the region, particularly one with reasonable accessibility. North Sydney Oval is too small for AFL level games, especially with the 18-a-side format we currently have. Finding another suitable location with accessibility to public transport could be difficult.
There are options. The existing North Shore club in the Sydney league plays next to St Leonards station (although their ground would probably need to be rotated slightly, to be developed without encroaching on the cemetery next door). And there's another oval just across the park from North Sydney Oval. I imagine it could be developed if the money was right.
 

Professor Knowall

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Kids shipped from a school to fill training crowd, but hey not important.
Capturing the next generation. It's brilliant! - just as the SMH article says -

... AFL NSW CEO Sam Graham said the growth since the Giants' arrival had been "incredible".

There have been six new junior AFL clubs introduced in western Sydney since 2012 and there is now a club in all 14 western Sydney local government areas.

In addition to eight new or renovated fields, more than 60 schools have had AFL goal posts installed and participation in junior club football in western Sydney has doubled.

"It's a generational decision to start a club in a new area," he said. "There's a lot of support being generated for the Giants, which creates more interest in the game broadly." "We're seeing consistent growth year-on-year."

Veteran ruckman Shane Mumford has lived on both sides of the divide, joining the expansion club from the Swans in 2014. "This is actually, like crazy. It's brilliant. To get the coverage and things like that, to see the turnout we've got here shows how much the AFL's grown in NSW. It's brilliant to see," Mumford said.

It's night and day to when he first arrived in Sydney a few years ago.

"You go out to schools and you see the footys flying around before you even get there. When I first got to the Swans, you'd go to schools and the teachers weren't really sure if they wanted you there," he said. "The kids had no idea. They'd say 'Where are the rugby players?' "Now they come running over, they know who you are, the participation with girls football as well now has gone through the roof."
 

Tasmanian saint

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Over the very long term, I think 4 teams in Sydney make sense.

The South-West is one such area. It's a major growth pocket, however it is definitely a much poorer region than either of the two current Sydney team areas. Right now, the region only supports the Wests Tigers, and even they only play a limited number of games in the region. Even at a semi-pro level, the South-West region is only represented by a couple of NSWRL clubs. No Shute Shield presence, no BBL, NBL, A-League (although an A-league team is being introduced in the next couple of seasons), NPL or NEAFL presence.

The journey to get a viable club there I imagine would be significantly more difficult than that of GWS. GWS has the advantage of being able to draw from the Inner Western suburbs, which are reasonably wealthy, while it continues to build support in the Outer West. GWS also has the advantage of being based in/near Parramatta, which is a reasonably significant city in its own right. A South-West team I can imagine struggling for support and corporate sponsorship money for a significant amount of time (multi-generational).

Accessibility, even within the South-West, could also be an issue. Liverpool and Campbelltown are not directly connected to each other via train, and there are no lines at all out in Camden.

All these issues make the South-West a pretty distant goal to be honest. All it currently has going for it is the population growth and space availability for a future stadium. This may change though as the prices of inner suburbs continue to push people further out, and the Campbelltown or Liverpool CBDs grow.

The North Shore is another area worth considering. Although it is only expected to modestly grow relative to the South-West, it benefits from being a significantly more wealthy region. Similar to the South-West, it has a limited variety of professional sporting teams, with only Manly being based North of the river. It does, however, host a variety of Shute Shield teams (Gordon, Manly, Northern Suburbs and Warringah if you include the Northern Beaches), a NSWRL team and an NPL team. The North Shore has also produced a number of AFL players, such as Callum Mills.

Again, there are several issues with a North Shore team. The first consideration would be the degree of cannibalisation of the Giants and particularly Swans fanbase that could occur. Following on from that, it would have to be determined if the North Shore is already "saturated" via the Swans and Giants, or if there are actually tangible benefits to a team in the region.

Another consideration is the availability of a ground in the region, particularly one with reasonable accessibility. North Sydney Oval is too small for AFL level games, especially with the 18-a-side format we currently have. Finding another suitable location with accessibility to public transport could be difficult.

You mentioned Penrith, but I don't really see it. Penrith has the issues of the other two regions combined. It doesn't have particularly great accessibility, population projections are only in line with the northern suburbs, it isn't particularly wealthy either individually or from potential corporate partners, and it doesn't have the "football pedigree" that a Northern Suburbs team would have. It also has direct, full time competition from an NRL team. I mentioned how much harder South-West would be than the Giants - I think Penrith region would be that much harder again, with even more limited upside.

There are a few regions outside the metro that have been mentioned, including Central Coast, Illawarra and Newcastle. Again, I struggle to see it. These regions would have the difficulty of a Giants bid, but without the TV money upside (regional areas). Areas that don't benefit from the TV money and massive population growth upsides should be built from the ground up, similar to that of the Tasmania bid.

Canberra would be the next most logical regional area behind Tasmania - however I see it unlikely to happen. The Canberra and Riverina regions are too valuable as talent farms to feed into what is currently the Giants, and in the future will be a South-West team. When we reach a point where these two clubs are at a point where they can stand on their own two feet, then Canberra will get a look. This is subject to change if the demographic trends of Canberra change dramatically - however that would be outside current expectations.

A future with 4 AFL teams across the Sydney metro, dispersed North of the river, in the CBD and East, in the West and in the South-West allows for good representation of the code dispersed across most of the major areas of population, with reasonable room to continue growing all the clubs fanbases. Very long term stuff obviously (particularly that of a South-West team), and many issues to overcome, but it seems the most logical to me.
Mate there is no way nsw could support 4 teams even a 3rd team would be at least 30 years away when you look at how long it took Sydney to be sustainable allowing gws the same time you can’t just look at population figures in expansion states as those numbers you would have about 5% of the whole number for support to begin with it’s also the demographics that don’t work a team in northern nsw would be eating into the suns support areas a Canberra team is a big supporter area for gws looking on paper you might think the population numbers are there for 3-4 teams but the reality is the support is needed for the current teams in expansion areas with out diluting the support buy adding more teams!
 

abcde12345

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Mate there is no way nsw could support 4 teams even a 3rd team would be at least 30 years away when you look at how long it took Sydney to be sustainable allowing gws the same time you can’t just look at population figures in expansion states as those numbers you would have about 5% of the whole number for support to begin with it’s also the demographics that don’t work a team in northern nsw would be eating into the suns support areas a Canberra team is a big supporter area for gws looking on paper you might think the population numbers are there for 3-4 teams but the reality is the support is needed for the current teams in expansion areas with out diluting the support buy adding more teams!
I don't think you know what "over the very long term" means.

GWS should be reviewed after 30 years of existence. If support is strong (20k average) and NSW continues to produce more players, then this sets the 3rd team in motion. If not, more time is obviously required so any plans should be delayed further. These requirements are then taken again before a 4th team is relevant.

This is what is meant by generational - when kids who have grown up with the Giants being a thing all their lives have their own children.

I don't know any possible location mentioned, including those I said were unreasonable, that could possibly eat into the Suns support area. Just for your reference, the North Shore is Sydney north of the harbour/river, and the Central Coast is around Gosford (an hour or so north of Sydney). Newcastle is something like 8 hours drive to the Gold Coast, and it is the closest of all the areas mentioned. I also mentioned that all those regional locations make little sense, as they would struggle as much as the Giants did, but they wouldn't have the potential upside that the Giants do. Additionally, only the Central Coast region feeds into the Sydney metro TV numbers, meaning none of the others would offer the broadcast rights upside that the Giants do.
 

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