A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

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NoobPie

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Who/what?

Grass roots

Some social media lengthy Opinion Pieces & anecdotes by GR RU & RL fans on why their respective games in Aust. are experiencing a long term decline in GR regd. nos and/or the popularity of the professional competitions; & possible solutions to reverse these trends.

For the RU OP, the writer says that RA has handed a whole generation of youngsters in northern Sydney & the eastern suburbs to the AFL "on a silver platter"; & that the AFL is much effective in its "hustling" in western Sydney to increase its GR popularity.

1. RU Problems




2. RL Problems


BBT, I know you don't like the Ausplay survey cos its a survey, but the latest figures are interesting


If you go to page 16 and check the age groups from 5 to 14 on the drop down menu, there are actually more kids playing orgranised Australian football in NSW than Rugby League!

 

Kwality

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Grass roots




BBT, I know you don't like the Ausplay survey cos its a survey, but the latest figures are interesting


If you go to page 16 and check the age groups from 5 to 14 on the drop down menu, there are actually more kids playing orgranised Australian football in NSW than Rugby League!

Not surprised.
 

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BringBackTorps

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BBT, I know you don't like the Ausplay SURVEY [0.1% of population!] cos its a survey, but the latest figures are interesting
If you go to page 16 and check the age groups from 5 to 14 on the drop down menu, there are actually more kids playing orgranised Australian football in NSW than Rugby League!
1. Ausplay has little accuracy, also, because it will count a person as a "participant" if they answer they did a sport or activity only once in the last 12 months!

Club and school competitions (minimum 6 weeks of actual games in the sport), and regd. Official Pathway 5 y.o - 8 y.o. modified games in the sport, are the only genuine methodology to count players in any sport.

Your comment on Ausplay GR AF nos. overtaking Ausplay GR RL nos. in NSW needs checking with both codes' official regd. playing nos. (the only proof), but is interesting.
(It should be noted that the NRL is counting non-contact touch/tag players as official, regd. RL players- which, as a completely different, non-contact game, they are not)

The times, they aaare a-chaaanging.

2. Even in NZ, where RU has the highest per capita support in the world, & the All Blacks have an huge, fanatical following, GR adult & jnr male club & school comp. nos. are in a significant decline. There have always been weight divisions for juniors (ie not just graded by age) in NZ RU. My understanding is that most RU jnrs play in a school comp., not a local club comp.

FAR more jnr males play soccer in NZ now- basketball is also very popular. However, it is generally considered the best NZ athletes are mostly playing RU.

There has been a big rise recently in females playing contact RU in NZ- so the falling nos., quoted below in these links, don't reveal fully the major decline in male RU players.





NZ Herald

Re NZ Herald "...the demise of rugby as a mass participation sport...the grassroots is dying..."
(This is melodramatic, & wrong).
 
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Aucklander

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Anyone know how rugby (union) operates below the All Blacks & the Super Rugby sides?
In NZ you have the NPC which runs after the SR and Internationals, plus you still have club rugby being played. Secondary schools rugby still seems to be very big. Then you still have the 7s.

The "stars" of RU not being on show locally has long been an issue. The double header will be an interesting event and it could well be the forerunner of something we could see more often.
 

Kwality

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In NZ you have the NPC which runs after the SR and Internationals, plus you still have club rugby being played. Secondary schools rugby still seems to be very big. Then you still have the 7s.

The "stars" of RU not being on show locally has long been an issue. The double header will be an interesting event and it could well be the forerunner of something we could see more often.
NPC, who competes in that, those aspiring to Super Rugby, here we go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_10_Cup
 

BringBackTorps

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The Wallabies' had a dismal performance in the 2019 RU WC, suffering their greatest ever loss, bowing out early, & being ranked at their lowest position, no. 7 in the World. RA is conducting an official Review into the team's performance.

Coach M. Cheika, & other senior RU figures before him for several decades (back to The Galloping Greens, Randwick Sydney Shute Shield team), said the Australian style ("The Aussie Way") was to play "running rugby/ball in hand" ie a more skillful RU, with exciting flair from the backs, more tries being run in- with less points from penalties & field kicks/less scrums & scrum resets, set-pieces.
Many other RU officials argued, for decades, this style was necessary to win over fans in Aust.- since the NRL & AFL were games with more action & more ball movement/less stoppages/less downtime.


Many RU experts now say the popular & exciting (at least for most RU fans) running rugby/ball in hand style cannot prevail against the top RU countries. These top RU countries are built on a stifling defence; & who have with the big, heavy powerful forwards who seek to scrum & dominate the interminable scrums, can win penalty infringements/free kicks to score, lots of kicking etc.

Therefore, RA is on the horns of a dilemma- do they introduce this dour style for the Wallabies, so they can compete against the top nations (but, in the process, lose more local fans & players)?
Or do they retain the more exciting running rugby/ball in hand style, to safeguard their viewing & playing nos.?
 
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madmug

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The Wallabies' had a dismal performance in the 2019 RU WC, suffering their greatest ever loss, bowing out early, & being ranked at their lowest position, no. 7 in the World. RA is conducting an official Reviewd into the team's performance.

Cheika, & other senior RU figures before him, said the Australian style ("The Aussie Way") several decades was to play "running rugby/ball in hand" ie a more skillful RU, with exciting flair from the backs, more tries being run in- with less points from penalties & field kicks/less scrums & scrum resets,set pieces.
Many other RU officials argued, for decades, this style was necessary to win over fans in Aust.- since the NRL & AFL were games with more action & more ball movement/less stoppages/less downtime.


Many RU experts now say the running rugby/ball in hand style cannot prevail against the top RU countries with the big, heavy powerful forwards who dominate the scrums, can win penalty infringements/free kicks to score, lots of kicking etc.

Therefore, RA is on the horns of a dilemma- do they introduce this dour style for the Wallabies, so they can compete against the top nations (but, in the process, lose more local fans & players)?
Or do they retain the more exciting running rugby/ball in hand style, to safeguard their viewing & playing nos.?
How does this affect the prospects of a 3rd team in Sydney? :)

Apart from that, nothing beats winning, ugly or not.

Anyway one would think we we have plenty of big arsed Pacific island boys here who could fit the task.
 

BringBackTorps

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How does this affect the prospects of a 3rd team in Sydney? [Sport is part of the entertainment industry]
Apart from that, nothing beats winning, ugly or not.[In the world's most competitive sporting city, I disagree]
Anyway one would think we we have plenty of big arsed Pacific island boys here who could fit the task.[Yes]
Read again what I wrote above in post #1235.

Read again what was said (in the link above) by:-

. I. Payten "...Waratah fans... were bored...wanted more"; "Fans Forum...people... demanded... to be entertained..." ; & "...winning ugly...".

. M.Cheika "That's the way (running rugby/ball in hand style- my words) Aussies (& RA- my words) wants us to play".

Why did Payten & Cheika (& many RA officials until this RU WC) say these things?

Why has the AFL produced its The Charter Of The Game, re its preferred game style for AF (ie generally fast, free flowing & attacking AF, with minimal stoppages)?
 
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BringBackTorps

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GWS Members 12.12.19- 19,987
GWS Members 14.12.18- c.14,000

It appears that GWS Big Finals' run (OK, the GF was crap!) is likely to result in another big membership boost for 2020 ie well over the c.30,100 of 2018.

These GWS membership nos. would make most other sporting teams in NSW very envious.

 

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HairyO

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GWS Members 12.12.19- 19,987
GWS Members 14.12.18- c.14,000

It appears that GWS Big Finals' run (OK, the GF was crap!) is likely to result in another big membership boost for 2020 ie well over the c.30,100 of 2018.

These GWS membership nos. would make most other sporting teams in NSW very envious.

Depends how many are full members, 3 game members, junior members, AUSKICK members, etc.

Also gate takings matter. I paid $65 or $70 for the 2016 prelim but dont think I have paid more than $10 for a regular season game.
 

Rob

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GWS Members 12.12.19- 19,987
GWS Members 14.12.18- c.14,000

It appears that GWS Big Finals' run (OK, the GF was crap!) is likely to result in another big membership boost for 2020 ie well over the c.30,100 of 2018.

These GWS membership nos. would make most other sporting teams in NSW very envious.
Membership numbers are rubbery, they need to get their crowds up.
 

BringBackTorps

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I have written previously that:-

. all MSM HQ's are in Sydney
. 50%+ of advertising in Aust. is generated from Sydney based companies
. c. 50% of top ASX 200 companies in Aust. have their HQ's in Sydney
. Sydney is considered the premium market by advertisers- so broadcasters charge the highest per capita advertising revenues. Melb. is second.
. it is Australia's biggest & wealthiest major city (based on income and residential land values). The ACT is more "in the orbit/influence" of Sydney, cf. Melbourne

The ABC HQ are in Sydney, & it has c. 3500 employees there- with c.400 in Melb., and far fewer staff in other cities.

Herald Sun C. Vickery Media writer 14.11.19 has written:-

. there is an increasing tendency for MSM organisations to "network" radio and TV programs made in Sydney- ie to transmit them Australia-wide, & reduce non-Sydney generated programs (to save money).

. "...the loser is Melbourne. On October 30, AFL fans were outraged when the Marngrook Footy Show wasaxed by SBS bosses up north...(it) was the most popular sports programon the indigenous NITV channel, but that counted for nothing".

."One of the early decisions at Channel 7 under new CEO james Warburton was to retrench the entire Melbourne publicity department...Seven's reported plan is to centralise its publicity out of Sydney...".

. Re 3 AW, " In September, the Melbourne-based Nightline program...was axed after 50 years. Sydney-based...replace(d) the show with another hosted by 2GB...there is continuing speculation that Steve Price's 2 GBwill end up being networked into Melbourne to cut costs".

."...late night television news bulletins networked out of Sydney where NRL gets pride of place over AFL...".

The AFL will be concerned if MSM concentration & cultural hegemony is, increasingly, Sydney-based. It will disadvantage the growth of AF in general, & the AFL in particular.


(behind a paywall- can anyone open?)
 
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Professor Knowall

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... I have written previously that:-

. all MSM HQ's are in Sydney
. 50%+ of advertising in Aust. is generated from Sydney based companies
. c. 50% of top ASX 200 companies in Aust. have their HQ's in Sydney
. Sydney is considered the premium market by advertisers- so broadcasters charge the highest per capita advertising revenues. Melb. is second.
. it is Australia's biggest & wealthiest major city (based on income and residential land values). The ACT is more "in the orbit/influence" of Sydney, cf. Melbourne...
On the other hand, Melbourne has 5 of Australia's 10 biggest companies HQ's (including the worlds largest mining company) compared to Sydney's 4 - https://www.ig.com/au/news-and-trad...ian-companies-by-market-capitalisation-190130

IN addition, Melbourne's economy (along with population) is expected to close the gap and then surpass Sydney (as reported just yesterday - https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...on-s-economic-powerhouse-20191215-p53k2h.html
Herald Sun C. Vickery 14.11.19 ... C. Vickery, Media writer, has written:-

. there is an increasing tendency for MSM organisations to "network" radio and TV programs made in Sydney- ie to transmit them Australia-wide, & reduce non-Sydney generated programs (to save money).

. "... One of the early decisions at Channel 7 under new CEO james Warburton was to retrench the entire Melbourne publicity department...Seven's reported plan is to centralise its publicity out of Sydney...".
Channel 7 would need to be very careful then and not lose the entire Melbourne market like it did in spectacular style in 1987 when Fairfax purchased HSV7 Melbourne from News Ltd and then promptly ended AFL telecasts and networked the news from Sydney, with some 2 minutes of token 'Melbourne' news. This resulted in its nightly news rating an historic 'zero' (less than 5,000 viewers in the entire metro area) with its follow-up shows also rating distrasously - which led in turn to a catastrophic 90% drop in advertising revenue, with many scheduled ad breaks not even sold at all. With ratings dismally trailing even SBS, let alone ABC, Fairfax had to sell HSV 7 within a year for hundreds of millions less than they paid, with it's new owner promptly restoring a Melbourne based news service and (of course) AFL. It's said that Fairfax never really recovered from its horrendous Sydney based mismanagement of HSV7, which cost it well over a billion dollars all up in lost advertising revenue and the loss made from its sale. Maybe some execs need a corporate history lesson
...Re 3 AW, " In September, the Melbourne-based Nightline program...was axed after 50 years. Sydney-based...replace(d) the show with another hosted by 2GB...there is continuing speculation that Steve Price's 2 GBwill end up being networked into Melbourne to cut costs". ...
Well, just as I thought, the networking from Sydney has been a dismal failure ratings wise, and to rescue the situation, Macquarie has already abandoned it, restoring the Melbourne based night program, and won't be networking Steve Price in the afternoons, as originally planned. Anyone with long memories of past failed attempts to network from Sydney knew this would happen - https://www.radiotoday.com.au/denis-walter-3aw-nights/
...
The AFL will be if MSM concentration & cultural hegemony is, increasingly, Sydney-based. It will disadvantage the growth of AF in general, & the AFL ...
As shown above, Melbourne, whose metro area TV population already exceeds that of Sydney, and is on course to close the gap on Sydney on economic output, is too big and powerful a market to be treated as second class and, as history (including the recent 3AW debacle) has shown, it's the MSM that is most prone to suffer financially from stupid self-centric decision making.
 

BringBackTorps

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Michael Lynagh is a former Wallabies' captain, who played in a Wallabies' team that won the World Cup. He is another NSW RU senior figure who has publicly expressed concerns about the decline of RU, & the rise of AF, in NSW & Qld.

"The rapid emergence of other sporting alternatives for children...made it challenging for Rugby".

"In NSW and Qld, it used to be just rugby league that had the attention of young kids...but now, we have soccer and AFL poaching as well...so we're probably having less kids playing the game".

 
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Ian Dunross

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The continued decline of RU in Australia is inevitable. The sport suits only certain body types. Is only played in private schools. Presents serious risk of lethal or paralysing injury to its players.

Now has serious alternatives competing for its junior players.

AFL deserves huge credit for thinking long term and investing in grass roots development in NSW and QLD.
 

Kwality

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Its a bit early to write Union off in Aus although its going down a path similar to golf & soccer where the best players chase bigger pay cheques in Europe & Asia.
 

General Giant

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Its a bit early to write Union off in Aus although its going down a path similar to golf & soccer where the best players chase bigger pay cheques in Europe & Asia.
They are self distracting as we speak. Concentrating on Private schools, killing off Western Sydney clubs and Super clubs in other states.
Barely on tv and about to get worse.
 

Les Malone

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Spoke to someone recently quite high up in AFLNSW who stated that there are around 20,000 kids playing the game in Sydney and the numbers dont look like stopping ATM, biggest comp in Australia as although Sydney is split between the Swans and Giants the junior comp is actually run by one body not 2.

Also mentioned that they try to keep country footy where it is as growth is very hard to due to demographic shift and change.

There will be a third club.
 

TWLS

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Spoke to someone recently quite high up in AFLNSW who stated that there are around 20,000 kids playing the game in Sydney and the numbers dont look like stopping ATM, biggest comp in Australia as although Sydney is split between the Swans and Giants the junior comp is actually run by one body not 2.

Also mentioned that they try to keep country footy where it is as growth is very hard to due to demographic shift and change.

There will be a third club.
Very interested in your comments having a contact in AFLNSW.
Is there any possibility finding out for 2019 the total number of Women/Girls playing in NSW. It has been published that 15,000 new players joined up this year but no overall total so far. This has been a hard to get figure possibly because of low numbers it is thought.
Not Quite on topic but NSW/Sydney is the last region now where considerable potential for new female players for our game is possible.
 

Pippen94

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Spoke to someone recently quite high up in AFLNSW who stated that there are around 20,000 kids playing the game in Sydney and the numbers dont look like stopping ATM, biggest comp in Australia as although Sydney is split between the Swans and Giants the junior comp is actually run by one body not 2.

Also mentioned that they try to keep country footy where it is as growth is very hard to due to demographic shift and change.

There will be a third club.
Don't believe
 

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