A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[RedV3x]

Also this showing lowest participation of people born in non English speaking countries of all football codes

So the implication is only recently arrived immigrants play soccer and that immigrants go on to learn English
and appreciate Australian Football. Another Pippen troll dud.

 

[NoobPie]

Also this showing lowest participation of people born in non English speaking countries of all football codes

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

That afl is least diverse of all codes is a fact.

You are embarrassing yourself now. The fact that the AFL has relatively low participation from people born in non-english speaking countries (or at least did have in 2005/06) just reflects it is a physical game that is difficult to learn.

As others have pointed out, given the ongoing and ever increasing population of the game here despite having waves and waves of migrants is actually demonstrative of how over time migrant communities are attracted to the game.

Interestingly, and really embarrassingly for you given you linked to it, have a look at the soul destroying attendance rates by demographic group....


More people born (not to mention their children) from non-english speaking countries attend AFL games than any group attends soccer games. Cruel.

 

[RedV3x]

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

Participants, Selected football codes(a) - By state and territory

What does this (outdated) graph show.

1. Soccer is popular in rugby league states and territories - NSW, Qld and ACT.
2. Australian Football is not that far behind rugby league participation in NSW and Qld and superior in ACT!
3. There would be significant changes since 2009 with AFL stating major increases.

 

[NoobPie]

....Australian Football is a much stronger position than it was fifty years ago and soccer isn't.
Australia's population has doubled through immigration. What's anecdotal about that?
Australian Football is simply outperforming soccer.
Immigration is well over 100,000 people per year, if only 1% of immigrants attended a-league then there would be significant rise
but the opposite is true, isn't it Pippen....

It really demonstrates how unresponsive to actual reality some of these dreamers are. How on earth could soccer fans possible think that immigration from China and India - two countries where soccer is not culturally significant - is going to shift the balance from football to soccer? Perhaps half of Melbourne would be descendent from post war migrants from Europe (including the ten pound poms) but soccer is barely a blip compared to the AFL

The other fantasy is that information age is going to see the multitudes swayed away from the game foist upon them by a persecutory and parochial media towards the #worldgame. If this were the case, surely there should be some evidence showing up by 2020? You know, rather than heading in the other direction

The sad reality for the likes of Pippen is he has a lifetime of deep frustration ahead of him clinging to such fancies. Dudes in their twenties heralding the new dawn when the NSL formed in the late 70s are retiring now. If they haven't seen the light (and clearly many have) they would have spent half a life time of bitterness and disappointment. Why would you choose that for yourself?

 

[Tasmanian saint]

I

It really demonstrates how unresponsive to actual reality some of these dreamers are. How on earth could soccer fans possible think that immigration from China and India - two countries where soccer is not culturally significant - is going to shift the balance from football to soccer? Perhaps half of Melbourne would be descendent from post war migrants from Europe (including the ten pound poms) but soccer is barely a blip compared to the AFL

The other fantasy is that information age is going to see the multitudes swayed away from the game foist upon them by a parochial media towards the #worldgame. If this were the case, surely there should be some evidence showing up?

The sad reality for the likes of Pippen is he has a lifetime of deep frustration ahead of him clinging to such fancies. Dudes in their twenties heralding the new dawn when the NSL formed in the late 70s are retiring now. If they haven't seen the light (and clearly many have) they would have spent half a life time of bitterness and disappointment. Why would you choose that for yourself?

I’m not a fan of domestic soccer but the only reason it’s in its current state is through severe mismanagement that’s been going on for decades the sport if it ever gets the management structure right has huge potential especially in Sydney and Melbourne remember when the a league started it had stability under frank lowy games between Sydney and Melbourne where drawing crowds up 50,000 for regular season games the Socceroos continue to draw good crowds compared to the other codes and crickets national teams they just need to stop the fighting and get the structure right

 

[le dominateur]

I

I’m not a fan of domestic soccer but the only reason it’s in its current state is through severe mismanagement that’s been going on for decades the sport if it ever gets the management structure right has huge potential especially in Sydney and Melbourne remember when the a league started it had stability under frank lowy games between Sydney and Melbourne where drawing crowds up 50,000 for regular season games the Socceroos continue to draw good crowds compared to the other codes and crickets national teams they just need to stop the fighting and get the structure right

How many of these regular season games drew over 50000?

 

[RedV3x]

the only reason it’s in its current state is through severe mismanagement

it's naive to think that soccer's poor position is due only to it's mismanagement.

has huge potential especially

If only I had a dollar for every time I've heard this mentioned.

especially in Sydney and Melbourne

You have the four teams in those cities - what else you gonna do?

Socceroos continue to draw good crowds

It's called national pride and it goes across all codes.

 

[jatz14]

Also this showing lowest participation of people born in non English speaking countries of all football codes

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

That afl is least diverse of all codes is a fact.

Its so like a soccer supporter to misread data.

It's like the oft quoted, soccer has a younger demographic, quote. Ignoring that this is drawn from US data, the interpretation is, soccer will take over as the younger generation ages,and the older, AFL and NRL generation dies off.

However, this has been said for years, this generational wave of soccer supporters should already be remaking the sports landscape.

AFL crowds should be dropping and soccer crowds surging.

They missed an obvious alternative explanation for the data. Soccer gets interest from juniors from its high participation base, but cannot hold it. Supporters start to drop off. Where AFL can hold it.

If both sports have decent representation at younger age groups, but soccer support then drops faster as people age, this will result in a younger demographic for soccer.

And this is not a positive, it's a very bad sign.

Likewise this data.

Close to 0% of immigrants from a non English background know footy when they get here. Close to 100% know soccer.

That they play the sport they know is expected.

The key question is their kids. It's the first generation born in Australia that counts.


There are literally millions of people in Australia born to at least 1 parent from a soccer country. Soccer should be wiping the floor with AFL. No, it shouldn't be wiping the floor with AFL, it should have wiped the floor, past tense. It should be over and done.

The data you show is bad news for soccer.

Like it cannot keep young people interested, it cannot keep international familes interested either.

Soccer overseas wins them, they come to Australia, and domestic soccer looses them, in large numbers.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[RedV3x]

How on earth could soccer fans possible think that immigration from China and India - two countries where soccer is not culturally significant - is going to shift the balance from football to soccer?

It appears the Indians are "discovering" Australian Football. If i was going to use the word 'potential' then i'd link India with Australian Football.
Soccer is still very much dormant in China despite the government prodding it along. It seems Chinese like American Football.

The other fantasy is that information age is going to see the multitudes swayed away from the game foist upon them by a persecutory and parochial media towards the #worldgame. I think the FFA's attempt to force Australians to call

I think the FFA's attempt to force Australians to call soccer "Football" has completely back-fired.

How

The sad reality for the likes of Pippen is he has a lifetime of deep frustration ahead of him clinging to such fancies. Dudes in their twenties heralding the new dawn when the NSL formed in the late 70s are retiring now.

Craig Foster is a real tragic - looks like he's about to cry any time that position of soccer is mentioned.

 

[NoobPie]

I

I’m not a fan of domestic soccer but the only reason it’s in its current state is through severe mismanagement that’s been going on for decades the sport if it ever gets the management structure right has huge potential especially in Sydney and Melbourne remember when the a league started it had stability under frank lowy games between Sydney and Melbourne where drawing crowds up 50,000 for regular season games the Socceroos continue to draw good crowds compared to the other codes and crickets national teams they just need to stop the fighting and get the structure right

I think this captures well the delusion. There was novelty around the new franchise league which "enfranchised" a lot of mainly casual fans for the first time and also around making the world cup for the first time in 32 years.

The "right" structure for Australian soccer is the one that gives it very modest, stable growth over a long time frame. The worst thing for Australian soccer is the enduring myth of "huge potential"

 

[Pippen94]

So the implication is only recently arrived immigrants play soccer and that immigrants go on to learn English
and appreciate Australian Football. Another Pippen troll dud.

So the implication is only recently arrived immigrants play soccer and that immigrants go on to learn English
and appreciate Australian Football. Another Pippen troll dud.

Its so like a soccer supporter to misread data.

It's like the oft quoted, soccer has a younger demographic, quote. Ignoring that this is drawn from US data, the interpretation is, soccer will take over as the younger generation ages,and the older, AFL and NRL generation dies off.

However, this has been said for years, this generational wave of soccer supporters should already be remaking the sports landscape.

AFL crowds should be dropping and soccer crowds surging.

They missed an obvious alternative explanation for the data. Soccer gets interest from juniors from its high participation base, but cannot hold it. Supporters start to drop off. Where AFL can hold it.

If both sports have decent representation at younger age groups, but soccer support then drops faster as people age, this will result in a younger demographic for soccer.

And this is not a positive, it's a very bad sign.

Likewise this data.

Close to 0% of immigrants from a non English background know footy when they get here. Close to 100% know soccer.

That they play the sport they know is expected.

The key question is their kids. It's the first generation born in Australia that counts.


There are literally millions of people in Australia born to at least 1 parent from a soccer country. Soccer should be wiping the floor with AFL. No, it shouldn't be wiping the floor with AFL, it should have wiped the floor, past tense. It should be over and done.

The data you show is bad news for soccer.

Like it cannot keep young people interested, it cannot keep international familes interested either.

Soccer overseas wins them, they come to Australia, and domestic soccer looses them, in large numbers.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Stats don't back this up. 85% of players in afl with Anglo Celtic surnames. 15% of players with one parent born overseas the majority of which come from English speaking countries. Migration has had little impact on the game. Just facts.

 

[BringBackTorps]

1. The Western Weekender T. Dodds 17.6.17

This local paper covers the Penrith area, in Sydney's far WS. Penrith is a RL & soccer heartland, its GR nos. are FAR superior to GR AF regd. nos.- but in last few yeears, GR AF is having strong growth from a much smaller base.

Dodds is the newspaper's Senior Writer & Managing Editor, & a strong NRL supporter (as is his newspaper).
He made these interesting, & somewhat odd, comments

RE AF, "They want our kids, which is why they put so much focus on school visits...The AFL is just not winning the war, they may have already won it".

Has the AFL already won the war?

Penrith's most respected local news service. Local newspaper and online news outlet.

westernweekender.com.au

2. St Clair jnr AF club will be moving, in 2020, from its dilapidated ground to a brand-new $5.5m oval in Caddens, far west Sydney.

St Clair JFC is having good male & female growth, & its players will appreciate the state-of-the-art facilities. It even has a beautiful, white plastic picket fence!

Sport has a new home in Caddens

Penrith's most respected local news service. Local newspaper and online news outlet.

westernweekender.com.au

Having successfully formed female AF comp. teams at St Clair, this has, undoubtedly, assisted it in obtaining Council funding for their superb new facility.
Another big win for GR AF in Sydney (& elsewhere) caused by the promotion of female club GR AF.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

We're for Sydney

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

 

[RedV3x]

Stats don't back this up.

You're right there. You're quoting a 2009 production based on a 2005 survey.
It's a survey. It's like a Ray Morgan Poll it's not a census. it's not fact. it's a projection.
Unfortunately they stopped those sorts of real questions last century.

The only relevant fact is that where all descended from immigrants since 1788
and most Australians like the Australian game.

 

[RedV3x]

An interesting article on the decline of soccer in the U.S.A.

Is soccer set for a sharp decline in the United States? - Premier Football UK

Turn on a Major League Soccer game these days and you will see stadiums with singing fans that create atmospheres that aren't too far off clubs in Germany.

www.premierfootballuk.com

Not Australia, but it shows you have to be careful with your predictions and use of "potential".

but also

What's Killing Youth Soccer in America Is Also Hurting Most Every Other Sport

An emphasis on money over talent is hurting U.S. competition internationally and youth participation in soccer -- as well as other sports.

www.forbes.com

Here's how screwed up the state of U.S. Soccer is right now

Youth soccer in the U.S. has a problem; on that, all the sport’s leaders agree.

www.latimes.com

back in Australia

Why soccer is falling behind footy and rugby in Australia

Interest in the sport is starting to wane as the Socceroos have struggled internationally and the A-League has failed to evolve.

theconversation.com

 

[jatz14]

Stats don't back this up. 85% of players in afl with Anglo Celtic surnames. 15% of players with one parent born overseas the majority of which come from English speaking countries. Migration has had little impact on the game. Just facts.

What percentage of people with Anglo surnames come from immigrants from non English speaking countries

Stats don't back this up. 85% of players in afl with Anglo Celtic surnames. 15% of players with one parent born overseas the majority of which come from English speaking countries. Migration has had little impact on the game. Just facts.

You realise that Soccer is the dominant sport in England, Yes? And that they have almost no connection to the game of footy before coming here, Yes?

You realise that no source of English speaking migrants coming to Australia has footy as a significant sport, Yes?

So, for the purposes of evaluating the effect of migration on football codes in Australia, your distinction between soccer playing English speaking migrants, and soccer playing non English speaking migrants is both arbitrary and absurd.

For your stats to be true, there has had to be a significant conversion of immigrants from English speaking countries, from soccer, to footy.

Again, highlighting narrow and selective interpretation of data, to arrive at a predetermined conclusion of, footy bad, soccer good.

Its pretty much how the soccer forum of inside sport managed to spend most of the last decade rubbing their hands with glee at the imminent demise of footy and ascendance of soccer, and now find themselves somewhat lost and confused.

 

[Les Malone]

What percentage of people with Anglo surnames come from immigrants from non English speaking countries

You realise that Soccer is the dominant sport in England, Yes? And that they have almost no connection to the game of footy before coming here, Yes?

You realise that no source of English speaking migrants coming to Australia has footy as a significant sport, Yes?

So, for the purposes of evaluating the effect of migration on football codes in Australia, your distinction between soccer playing English speaking migrants, and soccer playing non English speaking migrants is both arbitrary and absurd.

For your stats to be true, there has had to be a significant conversion of immigrants from English speaking countries, from soccer, to footy.

Again, highlighting narrow and selective interpretation of data, to arrive at a predetermined conclusion of, footy bad, soccer good.

Its pretty much how the soccer forum of inside sport managed to spend most of the last decade rubbing their hands with glee at the imminent demise of footy and ascendance of soccer, and now find themselves somewhat lost and confused.

Their is a ABS stat that states that more people born O/S attend AF games than soccer, i will try to dig it up, but anyone is welcome to look.

 

[Les Malone]

Of the four main football codes, the highest attendance rate was reported for Australian Rules football for all three birthplaces; people born in Australia (19%), people born overseas in main English-speaking countries (12%) and people born overseas in other countries (5.8%).

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

 

[jatz14]

Of the four main football codes, the highest attendance rate was reported for Australian Rules football for all three birthplaces; people born in Australia (19%), people born overseas in main English-speaking countries (12%) and people born overseas in other countries (5.8%).

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

I suspect this plays strongly into the importance of sports in a culture. Sports has been central to Anglo culture since at least the 1800s, but not so much, in a Western sense, to cultures like Chinese or Indian.

He banks heavily in the failure of AFL to break into these demographics, when sport in general doesnt. Its certainly doing at least as well as Soccer in that regard, and arguably much better.

So the crux of the argument is, AFL is dominating in the single biggest (and originally Soccer playing) immigrant demographic in Australia. Not doing well in the immigrant demographic least likely to follow sport seriously, and has consistently made inroads into all other demographics.

 

[The_Wookie]

Also this showing lowest participation of people born in non English speaking countries of all football codes

4156.0.55.001 - Perspectives on Sport, May 2009

www.abs.gov.au

That afl is least diverse of all codes is a fact.

Only if you write off all of Europe as one culture. Just because they aint your chosen migrants doesnt make them not migrants.

Stats don't back this up. 85% of players in afl with Anglo Celtic surnames. 15% of players with one parent born overseas the majority of which come from English speaking countries. Migration has had little impact on the game. Just facts.

cool so thats 800 odd AFL players. Where do the other 365,000 other club players come from again? The game is more than just the league. And you STILL dont have any definitive stats beyond the assumption that someone with an anglo-celtic name speaks english.

 

[NoobPie]

I suspect this plays strongly into the importance of sports in a culture. Sports has been central to Anglo culture since at least the 1800s, but not so much, in a Western sense, to cultures like Chinese or Indian.

He banks heavily in the failure of AFL to break into these demographics, when sport in general doesnt. Its certainly doing at least as well as Soccer in that regard, and arguably much better.

So the crux of the argument is, AFL is dominating in the single biggest (and originally Soccer playing) immigrant demographic in Australia. Not doing well in the immigrant demographic least likely to follow sport seriously, and has consistently made inroads into all other demographics.

I think you missed his point. The AFL is dominant in every demographic in terms of attendance - including those born non-english speaking countries

 

[jatz14]

I think you missed his point. The AFL is dominant in every demographic in terms of attendance - including those born non-english speaking countries

No, I understood. There are demographics the AFL doesn't do well in. That AFL is dominant in these demographics because other sports are worse doesn't really matter to me. I am interested in how well AFL is or is not doing, not in Soccer or NRL.

 

[NoobPie]

OK, so for anyone interested in the butchered link the Pippen provided and keeps referring to here it is...

https://www.originsinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Measuring-Cultural-Diversity-of-Elite-Participants-in-Selected-Australian-Sports.pdf

You read it and you have to wonder the degree of bias to read this thinking it is some check mate for someone claiming that Australian football is some how mono-cultural and not reflective of Australia's ethnic mix



So "anglo-saxon" names were over represented by 22% compared to their share of Australian adults and celtic names were 36% over represented. North West Europeans were bang on and the southern and eastern europeans were a touch under half their representation in the general population. Non-europeans would have gone up substantially since this analysis was conducted

Rugby League is massively skewed by having 38% of their players having pacific islander heritage.

Soccer is far more skewed towards southern and eastern europe than the AFL is to "Anglo-celts". Interestingly, of potentially devestating ramifications to Pippen's mental state

Football (FFA) is another code that relies substantially on imported talent to boost the standard of the game and ensure its successful development. This is again reflected in an under-representation of Anglo-Saxon names, although Celtic (especially Irish) origins are over-represented. Stand-out representation occurs from Southern and Eastern Europe, including Italian, Greek, Spanish, Serbian, Croatian and Czechs. Although with smaller numbers, Arabic / North Africa and Africa are also overrepresented. Among the under-represented groups are people of East and South Asian heritage.

So soccer is basically massively over represented by recent migrant groups where the sport is dominant. It has had very little impact on "East and South Asian heritage" to the extent that percentage of elite players is some all important proxy of measurement of interest

 

[RedV3x]

There are demographics the AFL doesn't do well in. That AFL is dominant in these demographics because other sports are worse doesn't really matter to me. I am interested in how well AFL is or is not doing, not in Soccer or NRL.

Fair enough, but the AFL is aware of this and is addressing the issue.

 

[Professor Knowall]

I recently read (or more correctly, re-read) "My World of Football" by former Collingwood champion full-forward, Peter McKenna. In it, he described his playing soccer for Heidelberg Juniors from aged 8 to 13 on Saturday mornings, playing his first game of football for his school at aged 10 and finally playing club football on Saturdays (and hence ditching soccer) at age 13.

What really caught my attention was near the end of the book, musing about the future of Australian Football, he wrote - (quotes from page 167) "... Australian Football is about to enter the most critical period since the game was invented in 1858. The game is at the crossroads. ... I believe there are ominous signs which should worry every Australian Rules follower and certainly should be giving our administrators the utmost anxiety. ...

I believe that the main challenge to Australian Football will not come from rugby league ... but from ... soccer. Here is a ... game with an international flavour and overseas professionalism to spur it on. For followers of Australian Rules, the advances soccer has made ... should be amazing and alarming ... and it will not be too long before it is a very important part of Australian sport."

The thing is, this was published in 1973 - 47 years ago! This was before the Socceroos first qualified for the WC in 1974. Me (and Peter McKenna) are still waiting for this "challenge".

 

[NoobPie]

No, I understood. There are demographics the AFL doesn't do well in. That AFL is dominant in these demographics because other sports are worse doesn't really matter to me. I am interested in how well AFL is or is not doing, not in Soccer or NRL.

It is at least debatable that the AFL isn't "doing well" in those demographics in terms of engagement at the elite level.