A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[threenewpadlocks]

And VFL copied its format from SA's Modified Rules written on the back of a cigarette pack in 1968 by Don Roach who was the SANFL's first full time promotions officer appointed after the 1967 season finished.

Roach played 158 games for West Adelaide and was the team’s captain and coach in 1966 and 1967, he played 42 games for Norwood, 33 games for Hawthorn and 9 for SA and was selected in the All Oz team at the 1961 carnival.

He introduced the Coca-Cola Mini League as one of his first junior football innovations, played at half time of SANFL games and played under the Modified Rules. It was played by grade 5 and 6 boys so 10 or 11 year olds.

He was SANFL's GM/CEO for 10 years and then Sydney Swans recruited him at end of 1984 to be their CEO. He was sacked after a couple of years, but stayed involved in footy in Sydney and NSW, became chairman of the AFL NSW/ACT Commission and this memoriam piece was written by AFL NSW/ACT when he died in 2011.

https://aflnswact.com.au/in-memoriam-don-roach/

..... A little known fact that Roach’s exhibited a fantastic foresight for the game when he started what he believed became the most successful bi-product of Australian Football: Auskick. “I wrote the rules on the back of a cigarette packet in 1968″ Roach said “and called it ‘Mod Football’.”

This was the first and the start to Australia’s and possibly the world’s adoption of modified versions of open age sporting games particularly for young children. It is a legacy that Don Roach will be remembered for in the years ahead.

This Footy Almanac article is about Don but in between the info about his career at the start and end of the article, it also has a lot of great pictures from the book he wrote when he was that promotions officer in 1969, titled - How to play Football.

Almanac Footy History: How To Play Football – Don Roach 1969

www.footyalmanac.com.au

I think you're getting Little League and Vickick confused. What you've described in SA, actual matches played between two different teams, is not Vickick, which was about skills development and not playing games against others.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think you're getting Little League and Vickick confused. What you've described in SA, actual matches played between two different teams, is not Vickick, which was about skills development and not playing games against others.

Modified Rules was the forerunner of Auskick.

Roach introduced that at schools as part of his work and he introduced the mini league as a way of showcasing those rules during a senior league game just as Auskick has games on the field during a league game. 2 seperate yet complimentary ideas.

 

[BringBackTorps]

I didn't question the statement. I questioned the link which is all [No] about football codes in the U.K.[No- Evans also referred to GR & pro RU etc. problems in Aust.]

M. Evans, as the article states, was also CEO Of Melb. Storm, & the Perth-based RU Global Rapid Rugby comp. He is, therefore, very well qualified to comment on the importance of participation nos. in Aust., & is very familiar with Australia.
When he states in the linked article, therefore, that "we all tend to go & watch the games we played, if your sports participation nos. seriously diminish, like Australian rugby union, over 20 to 30 years, your audience disappears. And if that happens, you're toast", this is very relevant to Aust.

AusPlay survey figures also clearly demonstrate the strong link & importance of having good GR participation nos. to enhance crowd nos. at your pro games, & ratings' nos.

The collapse in male contact RL (& RU) GR club & school comp. player nos. in Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.) etc. & Greater Brisbane (excluding Ipswich District RL comp.) etc., therefore, does not bode well for the long term prosperity of RL & RU.

Australia is rated c. 40th in world soccer rankings. Despite this "lowly status", it should be noted that:-

. the A League, with an average pre covid attendance of c. 10,000+ per game, is c. 19th in the word, for pro crowd domestic comp. averages ie A League has very good nos., considering its, relatively, low status in Aust. (cf other countries in Europe & Latin America).

. some international soccer matches attract c. 90k+ people in Australia. Until the 1980's, major international matches attracted up to c.30k.
Some A League GF's have crowds c. 50 k, as have c.3 H & A games- far exceeding the 1977 to 2004 NSL averages (excluding a few 40K+ NSL GF's; a few H & A NSL games had crowds between 15-20k).

. some World Cup soccer matches attract 1m-2m+ average ratings (inc. a few played prior to 6am)- a huge improvement, cf the NSL era.

These facts confirm the veracity of Evans' above comments, & the AusPlay figures, on the crucial importance of good participation nos..

I find that extremely hard to believe. An organisation that is so focused on things completely outside of their control is doomed to fail.

It was ARL CEO G. Carr who said, in 2009, that the AFL's expansion into GWS will be the AFL's Vietnam; & it was reported in the MSM that Carr's comments were referenced (ie "GWS AFL's Vietnam") with posters on the walls in RL HQ offices.

espn R. Forsaith 16.7.18

Forsaith said

"Record crowd a sign of AFL progress: GWS

GWS enjoyed wins both on and off the AFL field last Saturday night, with the expansion club drawing their biggest home crowd of the season.
A total of 14,456 fans watched the Giants hold on for a thrilling two-point win over reigning premiers Richmond at Spotless Stadium on Saturday night.

It was also GWS's biggest home crowd, in terms of revenue from ticket sales, in the club's history apart from derbies against Sydney.
NRL ladder leaders South Sydney and the Canterbury Bulldogs, in action at Olympic Park on Saturday afternoon, attracted a crowd of 14,278.
The Giants went head to head with a Super Rugby derby between the finals-bound NSW Waratahs and ACT Brumbies at Allianz Stadium, which pulled in 17,100 punters, while the NSW Swifts were also in action on Saturday night.

Former Australian Rugby League chief Geoff Carr famously called GWS the AFL's Vietnam war, insisting they will not win the hearts and minds of western Sydney.
The Giants have also been regularly criticised in AFL circles throughout their existence, with many questioning whether the league's substantial investment has been worthwhile.
"I don't necessarily see them as knockers. They either don't understand the challenge or they're impatient," Matthews told AAP".



EDIT:

SMH A. Webster 27.5.16

Carr's exact "Vietnam" quote is here.

Andrew Demetriou: 'I remember someone saying GWS would be my Vietnam'

Attacked by AFL clubs down south and ridiculed by NRL officials in their own city, the Giants are sitting third on the AFL ladder. But if they win the flag, will anyone care?

www.theage.com.au

 

[Bjo187]

M. Evans, as the article states, was also CEO Of Melb. Storm, & the Perth-based RU Global Rapid Rugby comp. He is, therefore, very well qualified to comment on the importance of participation nos. in Aust., & is very familiar with Australia.
When he states in the linked article, therefore, that "we all tend to go & watch the games we played, if your sports participation nos. seriously diminish, like Australian rugby union, over 20 to 30 years, your audience disappears. And if that happens, you're toast", this is very relevant to Aust.

AusPlay survey figures also clearly demonstrate the strong link & importance of having good GR participation nos. to enhance crowd nos. at your pro games, & rating' nos.

The collapse in male GR club & school comp. player nos. in Greater Sydney (excluding Penrith District RL comp.) etc. & Greater Brisbane (excluding Ipswich District RL comp.) etc., therefore, does not bode well for the long term prosperity of RL & RU.

Australia is rated c. 40th in world soccer rankings. Despite this "lowly status", it should be noted that:-

. the A League, with an average pre covid attendance of c. 10,000+ per game, is c. 19th in the word, for pro crowd domestic comp. averages ie A League has very good nos., considering its, relatively, low status in Aust. (cf other countries in Europe & Latin America).

. some international soccer matches attract c. 90k+ people in Australia. Until the 1980's, major international matches attracted up to c.30k.
Some A League GF's have crowds c. 50 k, as have c.3 H & A games- far exceeding the 1977 to 2004 NSL averages (excluding a few 40K+ NSL GF's; a few H & A NSL games had crowds between 15-20k).

. some World Cup soccer matches attract 1m-2m+ average ratings (inc. a few played prior to 6am)- a huge improvement, cf the NSL era.

These facts confirm the veracity of Evans' above comments, & the AusPlay figures.




It was ARL CEO G. Carr who said, in 2009, that the AFL's expansion into GWS will be the AFL's Vietnam; & it was reported in the MSM that Carr's comments were referenced (ie "GWS AFL's Vietnam") with posters on the walls in RL HQ offices.

espn R. Forsaith 16.7.18

Forsaith said

"Record crowd a sign of AFL progress: GWS

GWS enjoyed wins both on and off the AFL field last Saturday night, with the expansion club drawing their biggest home crowd of the season.
A total of 14,456 fans watched the Giants hold on for a thrilling two-point win over reigning premiers Richmond at Spotless Stadium on Saturday night.

It was also GWS's biggest home crowd, in terms of revenue from ticket sales, in the club's history apart from derbies against Sydney.
NRL ladder leaders South Sydney and the Canterbury Bulldogs, in action at Olympic Park on Saturday afternoon, attracted a crowd of 14,278.
The Giants went head to head with a Super Rugby derby between the finals-bound NSW Waratahs and ACT Brumbies at Allianz Stadium, which pulled in 17,100 punters, while the NSW Swifts were also in action on Saturday night.

Former Australian Rugby League chief Geoff Carr famously called GWS the AFL's Vietnam war, insisting they will not win the hearts and minds of western Sydney.
The Giants have also been regularly criticised in AFL circles throughout their existence, with many questioning whether the league's substantial investment has been worthwhile.
"I don't necessarily see them as knockers. They either don't understand the challenge or they're impatient," Matthews told AAP".



EDIT:

SMH A. Webster 27.5.16

Carr's exact "Vietnam" quote is here.

Andrew Demetriou: 'I remember someone saying GWS would be my Vietnam'

Attacked by AFL clubs down south and ridiculed by NRL officials in their own city, the Giants are sitting third on the AFL ladder. But if they win the flag, will anyone care?

www.theage.com.au

Just on this, I would very much hope that the Giants took advantage of the covid situation and having neutral games from interstate clubs at their venue as a massive advantage to build a supporter base.

They should have been collecting the information of all those people that attended Spotless Stadium as potential new members for the club. I think footy fans from traditional States now living and easily accessing Spotless Stadium should be the core of the initial supporter base. Then you can tap into the local market because crowds bring crowds as they say.

A Western Sydney local with no affiliation to AFL might see a game on TV with a decent crowd and that gets them interested to attend a game. Also the expats that become invested will bring some atmosphere to the games different to a first timer. I feel like covid should have been a real opportunity for the giants to build their supporter base by identifying 'potentials' more easily and actively engaging with them to get invested in the club.

 

[RedV3x]

M. Evans, as the article states, was also CEO Of Melb. Storm, & the Perth-based RU Global Rapid Rugby comp. He is, therefore, very well qualified to comment on the importance of participation nos. in Aust., & is very familiar with Australia.

So, that's all you have to say.

 

[RedV3x]

I feel like covid should have been a real opportunity for the giants to build their supporter base by identifying 'potentials' more easily and actively engaging with them to get invested in the club.

I remember by being approached to fill a survey questionaire at the SCG during the early Swans games.
My reply was "you're preaching to the converted".

 

[RedV3x]

It was ARL CEO G. Carr who said, in 2009, that the AFL's expansion into GWS will be the AFL's Vietnam; & it was reported in the MSM that Carr's comments were referenced (ie "GWS AFL's Vietnam") with posters on the walls in RL HQ offices.

A lot of huffing and puffing is made to draw media attention, draw attention away from their poor performance is some respects.
Posters can simply be a rallying point to staff to lift their game.
It is obvious that all sports monitor other sports to gain insight and potential benefit.
The AFL has made some grandiose statements from time to time and ignore certain local conditions.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Surely though, before any thought of a NSW3 team entering the Men's/Women's Competitions, the AFL would first create an ACT team in the Canberra and surroundings regions as they already have a suitable AFL stadium of Manuka Oval (albeit needs redevelopment to be able to withstand 30/35,000 spectator capacity), has a suitable transport system (light rail) being built and would be extended in the future to be 1/2km walking distance from the stadium itself, neighbouring states of NSW & VIC and will have a population of over 500,000 people alone in Canberra by 2030 (which doesn't include country towns outside of ACT as well like Yass, Goulburn, Wagga Wagga, Cooma, etc).

If I was part of the AFL HQ now, I would be giving enough funding to the ACT Government to help redevelop Manuka Oval into a moderate sized stadium and training complex, similar to the Sydney Showgrounds stadium, and get Hawthorn & North Melbourne to play 2-3 games over in Canberra (once the Tasmania deals are finished and Tasmania has their own team), while the Giants focus on growing their club and supporter base in the Western Sydney region while also playing the odd away game in ACT to continue the support over there, before ACT becomes the 20th team in the AFL Men's/Women's competitions.

After that, the AFL can then focus on bringing in a 3rd NSW team in the Men's/Women's competition, that can help focus and build the support base of the sport in the Northern NSW region with smaller VIC teams playing out of there by 2040, such as the model below being presented presented:

2025- Tasmania Devils (8x Hobart) & (3x Launceston)
(Redeveloped Hobart Stadium = 40,000) - (Redeveloped Launceston Stadium = 25,000)

2027- Canberra Rams (10x Canberra) & (1x Wagga Wagga)
(Redeveloped Manuka Oval = 35,000) - (Redeveloped Wagga Wagga Oval = 15,000)

2038- Perth Falcons (11x Perth)
(Current Perth Stadium = 60,000)

2040- North Sydney Bulls (8x North Sydney) & (3x Newcastle)
(Redeveloped North Sydney Oval = 30,000) - (New Newcastle AFL Stadium = 20,000)

 

[Established1870]

Problem is you don't want to over-saturate Sydney itself with AFL teams. GWS takes the west and Sydney covers the rest of the city in spades. NSW has two perfect regions with big populations that are close enough to Sydney in Newcastle and Illawarra/Wollongong to just put teams there.

Tassie and Canberra should be 19 and 20 but Newcastle and the Illawarra/Wollongong region should be where the next NSW teams go for the AFL. After that you don't need any more NSW teams because North, South, East and West are all covered.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Problem is you don't want to over-saturate Sydney itself with AFL teams. GWS takes the west and Sydney covers the rest of the city in spades. NSW has two perfect regions with big populations that are close enough to Sydney in Newcastle and Illawarra/Wollongong to just put teams there.

Tassie and Canberra should be 19 and 20 but Newcastle and the Illawarra/Wollongong region should be where the next NSW teams go for the AFL. After that you don't need any more NSW teams because North, South, East and West are all covered.

Agree with Tassie, but a team in Canberra will be a huge financial hit for GWS, as there will be no need point in them playing games in Canberra if Canberra have their own team.

 

[Bjo187]

I think realistically the AFL would be looking at 2027 for Tasmania, 2030 for Canberra.

Then I think they would be looking closer to 2050 for the introduction of a Northern Sydney and Northern Australia side (cairns 8, Darwin 3). They could actually address either one of these preferred options by relocating the kangaroos and offering them to retain three home games at Docklands Stadium per year for the first 10 years post relocation. Relocations are very difficult though so they would likely be the two new teams locations on the agenda long term.

 

[madmug]

I think realistically the AFL would be looking at 2027 for Tasmania, 2030 for Canberra.

Then I think they would be looking closer to 2050 for the introduction of a Northern Sydney and Northern Australia side (cairns 8, Darwin 3). They could actually address either one of these preferred options by relocating the kangaroos and offering them to retain three home games at Docklands Stadium per year for the first 10 years post relocation. Relocations are very difficult though so they would likely be the two new teams locations on the agenda long term.

All well & good, however, even with the effects of Covid 19, Perth will continue to grow.

I can't see Perth growing any slower than the huge spread out area of 'Northern Australia'.

With just over 2million people, as our 2nd biggest Aussie rules market, its under-represented in the AFL now with just the 2 teams.

The ABS predicted 3.4 million by 2050. All those predictions are now moot. However growth in any major city is hard to predict right now.

Given the new Stadium, & again over 2 million people, being an Aussie rule market, I fail to understand how Perth still only has 2 teams.

 

[Established1870]

Agree with Tassie, but a team in Canberra will be a huge financial hit for GWS, as there will be no need point in them playing games in Canberra if Canberra have their own team.

GWS need to be able to stand on their own two feet sooner or later and they can't stay in Canberra forever. GWS should be trying to consolidate themselves in their area rather than needing a place like Canberra to prop them up long term.

 

[RedV3x]

Agree with Tassie, but a team in Canberra will be a huge ....

....windfall for GWS as well.
A full season membership played at their home ground - more attractive to fans and sponsors alike.

 

[Bjo187]

All well & good, however, even with the effects of Covid 19, Perth will continue to grow.

I can't see Perth growing any slower than the huge spread out area of 'Northern Australia'.

With just over 2million people, as our 2nd biggest Aussie rules market, its under-represented in the AFL now with just the 2 teams.

The ABS predicted 3.4 million by 2050. All those predictions are now moot. However growth in any major city is hard to predict right now.

Given the new Stadium, & again over 2 million people, being an Aussie rule market, I fail to understand how Perth still only has 2 teams.

Somewhat agree, but most Perth posters on here seem to think that a third Perth team would be an absolute failure.

 

[RedV3x]

Somewhat agree, but most Perth posters on here seem to think that a third Perth team would be an absolute failure.

No, that isn't quite right.
Looking at the Dockers and other factors, Perth3 would take a lot longer to get up to speed.
Perth3, might be technically feasible, even reasonably supported but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add much to the AFL pie.
One extra game of AFL in Perth every fortnight, would benefit the stadium and eastern states viewing perhaps (if competitive).
A new AFL team in a new location creates big benefits.
When the WCE play the Dockers in a grand final (every other year) then that would be the time to consider Perth3.

 

[madmug]

Somewhat agree, but most Perth posters on here seem to think that a third Perth team would be an absolute failure.

No, that isn't quite right.
Looking at the Dockers and other factors, Perth3 would take a lot longer to get up to speed.
Perth3, might be technically feasible, even reasonably supported but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add much to the AFL pie.
One extra game of AFL in Perth every fortnight, would benefit the stadium and eastern states viewing perhaps (if competitive).
A new AFL team in a new location creates big benefits.
When the WCE play the Dockers in a grand final (every other year) then that would be the time to consider Perth3.

Their is self interest in having a wealthy city of 2million people to themselves.

Playing/winning Grand Finals has a lot to do with well planned/lucky recruiting as anything else. Making multi million $$$ surpluses each year doesn't win Grand finals.

Such annual profits may look great in the annual report, but aren't as good for the game as just being suitably financial & then maximising the number of games in a city & giving local kids a better chance of being recruited into a team in their home city.

Anyway, self interest often wins.

 

[RedV3x]

Such annual profits may look great in the annual report, but aren't as good for the game as just being suitably financial & then maximising the number of games in a city & giving local kids a better chance of being recruited into a team in their home city.

That's why we're so lucky in having the WAFL.

 

[Rob]

Their is self interest in having a wealthy city of 2million people to themselves.

Playing/winning Grand Finals has a lot to do with well planned/lucky recruiting as anything else. Making multi million $$$ surpluses each year doesn't win Grand finals.

Such annual profits may look great in the annual report, but aren't as good for the game as just being suitably financial & then maximising the number of games in a city & giving local kids a better chance of being recruited into a team in their home city.

Anyway, self interest often wins.

I can't speak for anyone else, but i'm apathetic to the concept simply because I haven't seen an idea that would work. The best I can come up with is a Swan Valley team, but even that would take a long time to come good. This idea that you can bring in the Perth Pirates or Joondalup Jackoffs and suddenly 30,000 people are showing up every week to watch is just fanciful.

 

[madmug]

I can't speak for anyone else, but i'm apathetic to the concept simply because I haven't seen an idea that would work. The best I can come up with is a Swan Valley team, but even that would take a long time to come good. This idea that you can bring in the Perth Pirates or Joondalup Jackoffs and suddenly 30,000 people are showing up every week to watch is just fanciful.

Perth is big enough to have a team called Perth 'somethings' & play them in the new Stadium. It doesn't need to have a specific geographic area.

I'm sure with good marketing, & with the name "Perth', it'll attract supporters & corporates in a reasonable time.

 

[NoobPie]

Perth is big enough to have a team called Perth 'somethings' & play them in the new Stadium. It doesn't need to have a specific geographic area.

I'm sure with good marketing, & with the name "Perth', it'll attract supporters & corporates in a reasonable time.

For it to be worthwhile it would need to provide enough overall benefit to WA football and economy purely from having 11 more games (including up to 2 extra away games for freo and the eagles) to sustain weak off field success for a long time

 

[Rob]

Perth is big enough to have a team called Perth 'somethings' & play them in the new Stadium. It doesn't need to have a specific geographic area.

I'm sure with good marketing, & with the name "Perth', it'll attract supporters & corporates in a reasonable time.

I can't see how. Hard to see anyone switching clubs, and it's unlikely to attract more than a handful of new fans to the game. This idea that people would jump just to the name "Perth" seems pretty fanciful to me. And that's not challenging the idea that Perth is large enough - I wouldn't argue that at all. If you got everyone on West Coast's waiting list and they all bought memberships of the new team then it would have a decent starting base. But that's not how it works.

TBH, even Joondalup would be better than "Perth somethings" and IMO Joondalup is a s**t idea.

 

[RedV3x]

I can't see how. Hard to see anyone switching clubs, and it's unlikely to attract more than a handful of new fans to the game. This idea that people would jump just to the name "Perth" seems pretty fanciful to me.

"I'm sure with good marketing, & with the name "Perth', it'll attract supporters & corporates in a reasonable time."
It's not about switching clubs. It's about developing your product and attracting the until now uncommitted.
Good marketing - getting the right angle is tantamount to building a better mousetrap.
The name "Perth" equates to sponsorship dollars and better media coverage.
A "reasonable time" is exactly that - a long lead in time.

 

[TWLS]

I can't see how. Hard to see anyone switching clubs, and it's unlikely to attract more than a handful of new fans to the game. This idea that people would jump just to the name "Perth" seems pretty fanciful to me. And that's not challenging the idea that Perth is large enough - I wouldn't argue that at all. If you got everyone on West Coast's waiting list and they all bought memberships of the new team then it would have a decent starting base. But that's not how it works.

TBH, even Joondalup would be better than "Perth somethings" and IMO Joondalup is a sh*t idea.

I have noticed consistently your negative comments about the Joondalup region. Very strange IMHO. I think the Dockers moving to Cockburn was a terrible idea - So what - They have made their bed and now they have to live with it.

 

[RedV3x]

I think the Dockers moving to Cockburn was a terrible idea - So what - They have made their bed and now they have to live with it.

Initially i thought so too but on balance it was the obvious choice.
South Fremantle plays out of Fremantle Oval.
I couldn't see any major developments being made at Fremantle Oval.
The locals would probably object to any East Fremantle Oval developments.
The Dockers have leveraged excellent training facilities out of whoever.
It is a boost to Cockburn, the centre of a large somewhat neglected area.
It's too much to expect AFL, AFLW and WAFL to share the same ground.

IMO, the WCE moving to Lathlain hasn't had the impact that would have happened by developing a NOR ground.