A thread on politics- have some balls and post

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James North said:
I don't think many would see 'economic raping' quite the same as actual raping.

Human nature still exists and now we try to out smart or out manoeuvre each other economically ... or legally.

We don't dual when we have disagreements.

There's an unequivocal shift towards civility.
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When people become objects you are moving away from civil discourse. Do you think that taking disagreements away from face to face with potential consequences over to keyboard warriorship on social media without consequences for the one attacking has made us more polite, more tolerant, more likely to listen to the nuances of another's position???

A man dies. His widow a) discovers that he had been cheating on her or b) discovers that, while he was faithful, that he left all of his money and possessions to his family who hates her. Despite one involving a violation of the body would she not be equally entitled to feel betrayed? If someone turned to her in option 2 and said 'it's only money' while she is being locked out of the house would she be comforted? The point of the rape and pillage (which I had a feeling you would decide to take literally btw) was that from the perspective of the one taking what they want and destroying what the other has without care for the consequences to the other our current system is just as bad and certainly not definitively 'more civilised'
 
Viceregal said:
Some people would look at a civilisation's value in terms of what it creates whether it be music, art, engineering, philosophers, building social capital etc and watch as each civilisation takes its turn through its cycle of birth, life, death, renewal etc. It is extremely rare for the members of the late stage civilisation to be more civic or creative than their antecedents (in fact that is literally one of the signs that they are on the way down) but it *is* extremely common for those same late stage members to think that they are the best and on the cutting edge of history.

In terms of us not making armies and invading etc ... in the days you were speaking of the primary value was to be found in land (especially arable land) and the way you destroyed your enemies was to kill them or exile them (or let them voluntarily retire to a monastery/nunnery for the rest of their lives). Today our current primary form of value is found in monetary wealth and there are no shortages of big corporations coming in and ripping the economic ground out from under their smaller rivals and destroying their businesses ... and while we tend not to kill people physically we instead destroy their reputations or unperson them so their influence is destroyed. Have we not and are we still not raping and pillaging just as effectively in our own way today?

So while the concept that we are more civilised, making more progress, becoming better people etc is not uncommon (and indeed treated as a fait accompli in some circles) it definitely is an opinion not universally held.
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Very interesting view point vice. One of the first posts on here that actually made me think.
 
Viceregal said:
When people become objects you are moving away from civil discourse. Do you think that taking disagreements away from face to face with potential consequences over to keyboard warriorship on social media without consequences for the one attacking has made us more polite, more tolerant, more likely to listen to the nuances of another's position???

A man dies. His widow a) discovers that he had been cheating on her or b) discovers that, while he was faithful, that he left all of his money and possessions to his family who hates her. Despite one involving a violation of the body would she not be equally entitled to feel betrayed? If someone turned to her in option 2 and said 'it's only money' while she is being locked out of the house would she be comforted? The point of the rape and pillage (which I had a feeling you would decide to take literally btw) was that from the perspective of the one taking what they want and destroying what the other has without care for the consequences to the other our current system is just as bad and certainly not definitively 'more civilised'
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It involves less death and violence so yes - mental anguish, financial loss or heated discourse is more civil than ending the life of another over a disagreement.

I don’t know how rape and pillage isn’t taken literally ... does it mean friendly christian settlement that improves the silly rock splitters’ lives?

Americans with guns pointed at you at their front door haven't really graduated though - they're happy to abort someone who passes a certain line on their property.

This is the crux of it - it literally used to happen a lot.
 
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Billy Puller said:
It still does happen a lot just not so much in the western countries so no one really cares
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Yes this is definitely a harsh reality - happens all the time in the Middle East, Africa etc ... and we don’t report about it in the Western media. Or we #KONY it.

Still overall - it’s lower than it ever has been.
 
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It seems to be one of those situations where feelings and evidence tell different stories.

According to most of the “happiness” metrics we use, we have supposedly never had it so good in regards to prosperity, conflict, order, social equality etc yet in terms of “feelings” people seem to think things are pretty terrible.

Maybe people are just unnecessarily miserable and pessimistic, or maybe our metrics for measuring social well-being are just all out of whack.
 
It's interesting - I've heard some say we reached peak "happiness" in the 50's & 60's - you knew your neighbours, there were street parties, money was reasonable plentiful, people valued friends and family more with war freshly imprinted on the psyche simple things were held true and dear. Conversely there were plenty of minority groups fighting for equality and recognition and to get out of persecution so it's very much a individual perspective.

Fast forward to today where as James North says things have never been so civil. Or at least on the surface.

How many people now actually know their neighbours let alone converse or spend time with them? How easy has it become to abuse and hurt others with a few keyboard strokes? How secluded, isolated and lonely have people become despite being surrounded by thousands? How many now live in poverty and fear in complete contrast to those around them?

Yes we may have lessened our desire to wage war, rape and pillage in a "mass murder" sort of context. And true, with the advent of law and order we find ways to reach resolutions without blood shed.

But we've also found ways to hurt, intimidate, humiliate and cause pain that seemed impossible just 20 years ago. This forum is a perfect example. If some of the players actually read these pages repeatedly while having their own issues and self doubts, I'd be little surprised at career harming damage being done at a minimum.

We as nameless faceless individuals may not pick up a weapon or rock or spear or axe. We may not physically assault the way we once did. We've become numb instead. Ignorant to the consequences of our seemingly minor actions.

I watched a documentary recently on what pr0n has done to the expectations of males and how it's lead to real harm and suffering caused to girlfriends, partners and wives simply because it's an unrealistic portrayal of what most women actually want. Young women were being raped, anally assaulted, bukkaked - some ignorantly blind to their right to say no - in loving relationships, in thier own bedrooms, because they thought that what sex was.

It's terrifying that we are seemingly losing our ability to empathize and articulate real feeling and emotions on a personal level without it being done through some sort of device.

Which is what brings me back to where I was originally.

The more we retreat, the more we almost unintentionally isolate ourselves, the more prone we become to losing perspective. To being swept up into unrealistic worlds surrounded by like minded individuals who offer no contradictions or objections. And we've seen where that leads.

Seemingly most of these recent whackjobs are white males who feel rejected by females and society in general and are looking for solace. That simple description will apply to a bloody scary number of people - and those numbers will simply increase as we go forward. Harness that loneliness and you create an army. Radicalise it and you have a war.

For me we are at a tipping point. We know what's wrong. And mostly we are genuine about trying to solve the problem. But for some it won't be enough. And they now have the tools and weapons in a screen and keyboard to find their own solution. I just won't be surprised if these atrocities become more organised and frequent as a result. It's simply empowering those who have been hidden from view.

That's why Eggboy gives me hope.

What he did was assault. It was wrong. And Anning had a right to protect himself (after the first slap though, once he had assessed the threat all bets were off so don't @me). And it's a slippery slope when being physical is how you express yourself.

But if he and his generation actually feel engaged enough to get up from their screens and take action then that can only be a good thing. And maybe it's a small step towards real communication and inclusion and away from isolation and feeling powerless.


Sorry that became a massive diatribe and it wasn't meant to. And I truly don't believe it's all doom and gloom. I do actually have hope for our futures.
 
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Horrible people are still horrible - I’m hopeful that will change eventually (certainly up for debate) ... but what horrible people do these days is preferable to what they used to do.

I’m only talking life/death in terms of ‘better’ not really thinking about happiness or life fulfilment (which in itself is nice to be able to analyse).
 
notliondown said:
It's interesting - I've heard some say we reached peak "happiness" in the 50's & 60's - you knew your neighbours, there were street parties, money was reasonable plentiful, people valued friends and family more with war freshly imprinted on the psyche simple things were held true and dear. Conversely there were plenty of minority groups fighting for equality and recognition and to get out of persecution so it's very much a individual perspective.

Fast forward to today where as James North says things have never been so civil. Or at least on the surface.

How many people now actually know their neighbours let alone converse or spend time with them? How easy has it become to abuse and hurt others with a few keyboard strokes? How secluded, isolated and lonely have people become despite being surrounded by thousands? How many now live in poverty and fear in complete contrast to those around them?

Yes we may have lessened our desire to wage war, rape and pillage in a "mass murder" sort of context. And true, with the advent of law and order we find ways to reach resolutions without blood shed.

But we've also found ways to hurt, intimidate, humiliate and cause pain that seemed impossible just 20 years ago. This forum is a perfect example. If some of the players actually read these pages repeatedly while having their own issues and self doubts, I'd be little surprised at career harming damage being done at a minimum.

We as nameless faceless individuals may not pick up a weapon or rock or spear or axe. We may not physically assault the way we once did. We've become numb instead. Ignorant to the consequences of our seemingly minor actions.

I watched a documentary recently on what pr0n has done to the expectations of males and how it's lead to real harm and suffering caused to girlfriends, partners and wives simply because it's an unrealistic portrayal of what most women actually want. Young women were being raped, anally assaulted, bukkaked - some ignorantly blind to their right to say no - in loving relationships, in thier own bedrooms, because they thought that what sex was.

It's terrifying that we are seemingly losing our ability to empathize and articulate real feeling and emotions on a personal level without it being done through some sort of device.

Which is what brings me back to where I was originally.

The more we retreat, the more we almost unintentionally isolate ourselves, the more prone we become to losing perspective. To being swept up into unrealistic worlds surrounded by like minded individuals who offer no contradictions or objections. And we've seen where that leads.

Seemingly most of these recent whackjobs are white males who feel rejected by females and society in general and are looking for solace. That simple description will apply to a bloody scary number of people - and those numbers will simply increase as we go forward. Harness that loneliness and you create an army. Radicalise it and you have a war.

For me we are at a tipping point. We know what's wrong. And mostly we are genuine about trying to solve the problem. But for some it won't be enough. And they now have the tools and weapons in a screen and keyboard to find their own solution. I just won't be surprised if these atrocities become more organised and frequent as a result. It's simply empowering those who have been hidden from view.

That's why Eggboy gives me hope.

What he did was assault. It was wrong. And Anning had a right to protect himself (after the first slap though, once he had assessed the threat all bets were off so don't @me). And it's a slippery slope when being physical is how you express yourself.

But if he and his generation actually feel engaged enough to get up from their screens and take action then that can only be a good thing. And maybe it's a small step towards real communication and inclusion and away from isolation and feeling powerless.


Sorry that became a massive diatribe and it wasn't meant to. And I truly don't believe it's all doom and gloom. I do actually have hope for our futures.
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Fantastic post notliondown. Rampant unending consumerism is part of the problem IMO, also on the whole people don't seem to be happy in their work life, wasn't technology supposed to expand leisure opportunities, it's like its had the opposite effect, the workers I know all complain that their jobs are becoming more and more time consuming.

From my life experience happiness comes from connection to family, close friends and the local community, personal face to face connection not social media superficial friend counting, illusory life comparison and envy.
 
James North said:
Horrible people are still horrible - I’m hopeful that will change eventually (certainly up for debate) ... but what horrible people do these days is preferable to what they used to do.

I’m only talking life/death in terms of ‘better’ not really thinking about happiness or life fulfilment (which in itself is nice to be able to analyse).
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Yeah you are right - I suppose I just think it's never been easier for those people to cause pain to others, regardless of how they choose to do it, and worse - find each other.

But I do fully understand where you are coming from and really I agree. As a rule we tend to murder each other less :blush: The world for the huge majority is a far better place, and as someone who has benefited from that in some small way I'm hugely grateful (lets ignore Brunei for a moment).

I can tell you are a kind and caring person mate, your posts so show that, so I should tell you that that counts in making a place like this diverse, thought provoking, entertaining and worthwhile - who would have thought - a footy forum! Thank you (and a hell of a lot of others really) for being here.
 
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jason pm said:
Fantastic post notliondown. Rampant unending consumerism is part of the problem IMO, also on the whole people don't seem to be happy in their work life, wasn't technology supposed to expand leisure opportunities, it's like its had the opposite effect, the workers I know all complain that their jobs are becoming more and more time consuming.

From my life experience happiness comes from connection to family, close friends and the local community, personal face to face connection not social media superficial friend counting, illusory life comparison and envy.
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Cheers mate thank you. Yep, I think you are dead right... envy. How much of all the greif is caused by that one single emotion - and for things that are so superficial like you say. Or worse still - in reality often non existent. I'm stoked you have those things in your life to bring you that happiness - that's what real :thumbsu:
 
notliondown said:
Cheers mate thank you. Yep, I think you are dead right... envy. How much of all the greif is caused by that one single emotion - and for things that are so superficial like you say. Or worse still - in reality often non existent. I'm stoked you have those things in your life to bring you that happiness - that's what real :thumbsu:
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Spent some time in Cuba last year and it was very interesting talking to the locals about their lives and how happy they were. Was very interesting hearing them talk about things like new clothes or shoes coming into schools and how it was creating issues with envy
 
Question - If Donald Trump got up tomorrow morning and announced that he now identified as a woman ... would the Democrats/Left/SJWs, according to their own logic, be forced to celebrate her as the first woman president, the first transgender president, and the first lesbian president? And since Donna Trump would now belong to all these categories of Good People, would any criticism against her by definition be sexist, transphobic, and homophobic?
 
Viceregal said:
Question - If Donald Trump got up tomorrow morning and announced that he now identified as a woman ... would the Democrats/Left/SJWs, according to their own logic, be forced to celebrate her as the first woman president, the first transgender president, and the first lesbian president?
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Not sure where you get "celebrate" from as a "logic" argument. "Acknowledge" definitely, but I don't see where you get the obligation to "celebrate" from? I think people want a "good" president first and foremost. Someone who comes a group who hasn't previously been represented at the highest level is a bonus I guess.

And since Donna Trump would now belong to all these categories of Good People, would any criticism against her by definition be sexist, transphobic, and homophobic?
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Criticisms that rely on pandering to stereotypes related to gender or sexuality rather than substantive policy arguments would be sexist/transphobic/homophobic. Otherwise, no.

We don't agree on much politically Viceregal but I will concede that you usually put up arguments that are far more substantive and in good faith than the logical fallacies and deliberately obtuse generalisations above.
 
*grins* Not worried - I read a version of that on another forum and was wondering what my more liberal leaning colleagues on the Lion's Board would make of them.

That being said (re your response) there was a fair bit of you-should-vote-for-the-first-woman-president-despite-it-being-Hillary and people getting blasted for being homophobic/transphobic/sexist/racist rarely has anything to do with the substance of the criticism rather then the group membership of the putative 'victim'
 
jason pm said:
There is no such thing as a good president
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FDR = great president.

Teddy Roosevelt = great president

Lincoln = great president.

Eisenhower = good president.

Truman = good president.

Whether the system today is too perverted to facilitate another great president remains to be soon, but I remain hopeful.
 
TheBrownDog said:
FDR = great president.

Teddy Roosevelt = great president

Lincoln = great president.

Eisenhower = good president.

Truman = good president.

Whether the system today is too perverted to facilitate another great president remains to be soon, but I remain hopeful.
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You're going back a fair way TBD, I lost all hope when the "Hope and Change" of Obama was just business as usual.
 
jason pm said:
You're going back a fair way TBD, I lost all hope when the "Hope and Change" of Obama was just business as usual.
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Inherited two wars, an economy that had three wheels over the cliff and had to face an obstructionist congress on the backend. Absolutely robbed of a Supreme Court justice appointment too. Wasted potential.
 
TheBrownDog said:
Inherited two wars, an economy that had three wheels over the cliff and had to face an obstructionist congress on the backend. Absolutely robbed of a Supreme Court justice appointment too. Wasted potential.
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Oh no he definitely lived up to his potential. Drones have made many lives in the Middle East significantly better. Now we can bomb indescrimintely even more easily. Thanks Obama 👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽
 
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