A thread on politics- have some balls and post

Joined
May 3, 2005
Posts
87,774
Likes
81,980
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Scuderia Ferrari, Dallas Cowboys
Moderator #1,701
Easy to analyse a campaign in retrospect but it really feels like "it's the economy, stupid" approach has won again.

"Follow the money/self-interest" is basically the Occam's Razor of political science. Ultimately the white poor are feeling the pinch financially and Trump kept speaking to those issues over and over again. His lack of real policy proposals to fix it, as well as fallacious blameshifting to illegal immigrants is besides the point. He kept acknowledging the issue explicitly while Clinton really only alluded to it as part of a "we need to stay the course" message.

I don't think a deep existing underlying racism or fear of a Mexican invasion was at the heart of this election. The economy was. If you don't know where the money to pay the mortgage is coming from, then it's hard to get whipped into a frenzy about social justice and minority rights. The anti-immigration stuff was largely whipped up by the Trump campaign as the "they took our jerbs" wedge to create the us vs them divide to get undecided working class voters to buy the illusion of an easy fix to their economic woes.

I can't help but think Howard's "we decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come" wedge tactic has been widely appropriated world wide, exported by Crosby Textor et al. It's incredibly successful and lives on here with "stop the boats".
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Posts
46,156
Likes
49,069
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Trump isn't a true Republican other than notionally. Let's see what his congressional colleagues think about his policies on trade, protectionism and outsourcing. And that's just on the economic side. I really don't believe he is as socially conservative as he professed to be in the campaign either.
Pence is going to be the real president, Trump will just be the very loud, obnoxious mouth-piece.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Posts
1,466
Likes
3,121
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
As someone who was always interested in politics I actually watched this election with complete impartiality - not because I didn't prefer a side - but because the flaws in both candidates were staggering.

The result didn't surprise me one bit I have to say. The left side of politics world over have become as elitist, entitled and patronizing, as the right have become -'obic about just about everything, inward & backward looking and fear mongers. The moral high ground has become a cross the left stole from the right and are doing there best to die upon it.

The constant outcry over the result - ignoring the fact it's actually democracy at work - by the left is unprecedented in my memory. The talk of Armageddon holds no bounds. The same elitist band of celebrities, talk show hosts, musicians and other supposed "influencers", who with all due respect have almost nothing in common with 99% of the people who vote, who supported HRC are now outraged over the result and taking every opportunity to show it. And that these people see fit to look down their noses to those who disagreed is not what America prides itself on.

What's lost in all this is that the disconnect between the people and the government has become chasm like.

These were bad candidates. Extra-ordinarily bad candidates. They kept each other in the race. Should one side have actually found a capable and charismatic candidate it would have been a blood bath. Why that didn't happen is simply because the political machine didn't allow it.

His success says as much about her as it did about him. To lose sight of that amongst the bitterness and outrage against the populous who dared not fall into line is why she lost in the first place. There was a sense of entitlement and deserving that pervaded her campaign from the get go. Her lack of ability to reach out to non supporters was her downfall. They distrusted her, they disliked her history, they certainly didn't like her being steeped in politics for so long and the naked ambition she tried to hide but failed.

The left were preaching before the result and they're preaching again. And again they miss the point. Stop talking AT the people. Talk with them. Stop belittling and mocking their choice. Ask why they made it. Stop questioning their view of the world and ask why it is that way. Stop assuming that just because someone simply doesn't agree with what you say that they're wrong.

He's a bad choice. A really bad one potentially. But ignoring the reasons he won is dangerous.

This isn't about extremism but maybe it should be. The actions of the Greens today in our Parliament is as appalling as anything One Nation will do. And yet the stony silence of condemnation is deafening.

Each side of politics needs to question their modus operandi. Wedging themselves on topical issues and dividing the population may all be well and good during an election campaign, but if they genuinely can't understand results like this and brexit being of their own making they're reinforcing the reasons they happen in the first place.
 

MacMum

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Posts
19,623
Likes
9,654
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
The constant outcry over the result - ignoring the fact it's actually democracy at work- by the left is unprecedented in my memory. .
Excellent post.......but this bit above is the bottom line in all of it. People just don't want to accept the umpires decision anymore.

The Brexit vote in Britain comes to mind.....the people voted, but the losers haven't accepted it and have tried taking it to higher levels. It is still an ongoing issue..

Just hope we never get to this stage.....and remain civilised in any election outcome, no matter how unpopular the result.

(had a chuckle on the Saints "Random thread".....someone wrote a post to Mr Eddie Mcguire asking him not to get any big ideas, thanks....from Australia)

Am I allowed to mention/quote a post from another thread?....hope so, don't want anymore trouble:$
 
Last edited:

jason pm

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Posts
14,650
Likes
26,402
Location
Omnipresent.
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fortitude Valley Diehards. Chelsea.
always read, rarely post on this thread. notliondown absolutely brilliant post.

i hardly follow politics (australian or USA) at all anymore, in the main i see them as two sides of the same coin, slight variations but we usually end up in the same spot just at different speeds. i paid a bit of attention to the US election because of the entertainment/laugh factor of Trump. my largely uninformed and un-researched view of him is that he is a buffoon, a symptom of our infatuation with celebrity, the 15 minutes of fame culture and the need for constant "news" in the 24/7 cycle.

what did strike me though was the ridicule and belittlement of anyone who dare come from a pro Trump stance, as you say no question about why do you feel this way/what makes you feel so disenfranchised with the system that you would contemplate a vote for this man.

you only have to sit around at a BBQ and chat to realize that most people have no respect for politicians at all, it is turning into just another form of entertainment and it's a bad sitcom at that. who the hell gives a shit about who Katie Perry, Lady Ga Ga, George Clooney etc.. want you to vote for, massive delusions of grandeur.
 

Skoob

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Posts
13,688
Likes
20,503
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I watch the post-election anti-Trump rallies and wonder how many of them didn't vote. Half the voting population didn't show up to have their say. How many of the idiots are making a noise about it, too late?
 
Joined
May 3, 2005
Posts
87,774
Likes
81,980
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Scuderia Ferrari, Dallas Cowboys
Moderator #1,711
I watch the post-election anti-Trump rallies and wonder how many of them didn't vote. Half the voting population didn't show up to have their say. How many of the idiots are making a noise about it, too late?
To be fair, the major protests were in New York, California, Oregon and Illinois. All blue states. A lot of them are annoyed that the electoral college diminished the value of their vote.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

James North

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Posts
9,379
Likes
17,360
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I wouldn't be shocked or concerned at all by a win if the GOP put up just about any of the alternatives that they mooted against Trump.

My shock is purely about Trump - not about how good/bad Hilary was as an alternative.
 

SizeMatters

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Posts
12,699
Likes
11,411
Location
Reality
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I wonder if our country can afford to start pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into defence spending now that Trump is president. It's something that needs to be talked about more if USA starts to pull back in foreign affairs to curb their insane spending on military. We have just lost a major bargaining tool when it comes to our economic growth in this region and I expect Indonesia and China especially to start to flex their muscle.
 

pulpdriver

Premium Gold
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Posts
13,073
Likes
16,616
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I wonder if our country can afford to start pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into defence spending now that Trump is president. It's something that needs to be talked about more if USA starts to pull back in foreign affairs to curb their insane spending on military. We have just lost a major bargaining tool when it comes to our economic growth in this region and I expect Indonesia and China especially to start to flex their muscle.
Trump's current plan sits at around $100 billion extra spending over his presidential term. That amount would have been conservative and won't reduce, could potentially be a lot more. Pulling back in foreign affairs is interesting phrasing, I anticipate them to still be as active on the world scale as currently. I expect most of Trump's promises with international relations to be compromised though, like the 45% tariff on Chinese imports. Doubtful that will happen, they'll find middle ground: both countries need each other.

Likewise I don't see US presence in our region shrinking and our relations will not be diminished in any way. Look at the embarrassing flip flop from our politicians once Trump was elected, they know we need a strong US alliance due to low investment in military, that alliance won't be squandered.

Despite all the fear mongering that's been circulating I doubt we see any significant change with any our international relations as a result of Trump as US president. Whether this is naivety or wishful thinking, I can't say.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Posts
1,466
Likes
3,121
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
I wouldn't be shocked or concerned at all by a win if the GOP put up just about any of the alternatives that they mooted against Trump.

My shock is purely about Trump - not about how good/bad Hilary was as an alternative.
Oh I agree. As much as she was a bad candidate he was worse.

One of the really strange things I heard repeatedly through the campaign by various commentators was that registered party voters in the US are far less loyal with their presidential vote than they are say of the congress or senate. In other words it's not uncommon for a Democrat to vote GOP for the president and stay loyal in the other areas of the election, and vice versa. It's not at all like here apparently where you are wedded to a party regardless. Apparently the calibre of the candidate is paramount given they will be the face of the US.

On the day of the election itself one commentator was suggesting that there was a serious number of registered Dem voters going for Trump which is staggering. It probably also means that you really can't ignore how polarising she was... no matter who stood against her.
 

jason pm

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Posts
14,650
Likes
26,402
Location
Omnipresent.
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Fortitude Valley Diehards. Chelsea.
that was very eloquent and insightful Elixuh, and funny as well.:thumbsu:

also the next video that pops up after that one is great. ie. Bill Burr.
 

Leemas

Club Legend
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Posts
1,338
Likes
2,016
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions

Some of you smarter folk might poo poo this vid, but it is quite a short, persuasive and simple take on the election and political/social landscape.
Absolutely spot on and glad this video went viral. Been saying the same thing to my lefty mates for months, shutting down discussion, lecturing and berating instead of debating is causing a huge amount of angst among those who think a little differently.

Ala Steve Price on the project was a perfect example of this, Australia needs to wake up and stop with the crap the mainstream media goes on with or we're going to end up with some nut job as the top dog. I am sick and tired of being lectured by some columnist I've never heard of on the 'mixed grill' every morning who labels genuine thoughts and fears held by millions of Australians as sexist, racist, xenophobic etc. How I need to live my life as one giant apology because I look more white than brown (neither of my parents were born here but both immigrated here legally, my mother and her family as refugees due to civil war) and apparently I was born with some special privilege I am yet to see any benefits from.

Fantastic video Elixuh we need to bring conversation and discussion back into mainstream politics and the mainstream media because I would personally hate to live in a country as divided as the USA is right now and unfortunately it's the only way I see us heading.
 
Joined
May 5, 2005
Posts
11,230
Likes
7,253
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
NYGiants, UOregon, Cardiff, Blazers
For the most I agree. When my kids use the phrase "oh that's racist" when someone is described simply by the colour of their skin it's clear the the nuance of discrimiation is being lost on them. That's said, they're young, so nuance isn't something I expect of them and it probably better than the opposite that used to occur when I was their age. But it's reflective of the state of our society that there's seemingly no place for in depth discussion of ideas. As an example and this may be unpopular but the outcry over Bill Leak's cartoon missed the mark by a decent margin and the chance for meaningful discourse about indigenous communities. That's not to say that I support the public airing of hateful viewpoints

On the other hand, people defending Steve Price and the fact that he got interrrupted/shut down probably haven't witnessed much of Price's work - he's the king of interrupting people and not listening to what they have to say.

Lastly, I'd say the groping and labelling of "leftys" as you say Leemas is part of the pronblem. The more you have teams or tribes, the more likely you are to have conflict.
 

Elixuh

Moderator
Joined
Oct 27, 2011
Posts
9,576
Likes
11,673
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Miami Dolphins
Moderator #1,720
I think the problem with using Bill Leak as an example is that using cartoons to comment on sensitive and serious issues is (imo) inappropriate. A cartoon, regardless of the point of view you're trying to express, cannot get across enough information/opinion to present an argument for people to respond to. At best I think they're a tool to start the discussion, which might be ok for your generic political cartoons, but it is unlikely to be good enough for areas such as indigenous community issues.
 

SizeMatters

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Posts
12,699
Likes
11,411
Location
Reality
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Can see clearly that right wing ideologies are gaining momentum in the Western world especially the past 5 years. USA is only the start and I expect some major EU countries to continue this trend and Australia to follow. Refugees, illegal immigrants, foreign 'investment', unnecessary military involvement in foreign affairs, issues with welfare and rising cost of living are some of the main issues that left wing parties throughout the Western world have not improved or fixed in the past 15 years. You can see why people are sick of seeing them in power... it doesn't help that the political leaders for these parties are pretty much useless anyway further adding fuel to the fire for a right wing uprising. I embrace the change.
 
Joined
May 5, 2005
Posts
11,230
Likes
7,253
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
NYGiants, UOregon, Cardiff, Blazers
I think the problem with using Bill Leak as an example is that using cartoons to comment on sensitive and serious issues is (imo) inappropriate. A cartoon, regardless of the point of view you're trying to express, cannot get across enough information/opinion to present an argument for people to respond to. At best I think they're a tool to start the discussion, which might be ok for your generic political cartoons, but it is unlikely to be good enough for areas such as indigenous community issues.
I'm not necessarily saying it was a good cartoon though. I'm not even saying that Leaks isn't the tool he was made out to be. I think political cartoons are on the whole pretty ordinary. I'll admit that I generally don't even look at them if I'd even bothered to buy a newspaper (which I haven't in about 8 years), so I can't even comment on Leaks other work. But a mature response would have been to ask (a) is that the case i.e. are there still problems with parenting among indigenous communities? ; (b) if so, are these problems any worse than in other cultural group on our society? ; (c) what's causing the problems? ; (d) if it is a poor stereotype, why is it still perpetuated etc..... These may seem like simple questions, but for some reason they don't get asked that often.

I get what you're saying about cartoons, especially one-panel varieties and as you say they're more a starting point than an encapsulation of an argument. As such they shouldn't be criticised as though they can communicate everything.
 
Joined
May 5, 2005
Posts
11,230
Likes
7,253
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
NYGiants, UOregon, Cardiff, Blazers
Can see clearly that right wing ideologies are gaining momentum in the Western world especially the past 5 years. USA is only the start and I expect some major EU countries to continue this trend and Australia to follow. Refugees, illegal immigrants, foreign 'investment', unnecessary military involvement in foreign affairs, issues with welfare and rising cost of living are some of the main issues that left wing parties throughout the Western world have not improved or fixed in the past 15 years..
I'd argue that there haven't been many left-wing governments in power in that time frame. Many might have been viewed as such, but they were really firmly in the middle. Is it the perception of them as lefty that might be a part of the problem. The so-called "right-wing" governments in power in that time have been bugger all also.
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Posts
3,588
Likes
4,471
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
Other Teams
Aston Villa, LA Rams
I'd argue that there haven't been many left-wing governments in power in that time frame. Many might have been viewed as such, but they were really firmly in the middle. Is it the perception of them as lefty that might be a part of the problem. The so-called "right-wing" governments in power in that time have been bugger all also.
Yeah even the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Labor government was bordering on Centre-right. There is no nuance in government or politics at the moment, everything has been about what could be condensed into a seven-fifteen second sound bite and there is no time to go into complex policy decisions that are counter intuitive and only able to be rationalised with evidence. The Dunning-Kruger effect has left a lot of stupid people thinking they are experts and that everything has a simple "common sense" solution, but if you try to educate people then you are being preachy and not respecting their beliefs.
 
Top Bottom