A thread on politics- have some balls and post

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pulpdriver said:
Fair points and he does do this and is masterful at using Twitter as a distraction however the delay was far longer than those which we've become accustomed. Good chance it's nothing but I'm apprehensive that all the fears on Russian co-operation were generated as a smokescreen and we have another Watergate on our hands.

Hopefully I'm jumping at shadows, but the consequences are enormous if it's true.
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I agree the consequences would be enormous, but I struggle with the likely outcomes of these two things both being true.
  • Russia has stuff on the current POTUS, all his team steps down/gets fired etc and .....?? I bet he just keeps going on as POTUS because he's set such a low bar
  • Illegal tapping is true and had no basis - Obama is ruined.
Both are bad, but Trump has set himself up to just keep being in power as POTUS even if he does a heap of s**t wrong. It's fascinating.
 
Leemas said:
Your bias is showing TBD.
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Lol, wtf.

I said "if it's true, it is a serious scandal". How is that being biased? Wowee. The #FakeNews thing was clearly a bit of humour, thus the hashtag.

That said, your burdens of proof seem to be a big off... if you are describing the Russia stuff as just smoke, you'd have to admit the wiretapping accusations are even less established at this stage.

You seem to be a bit under-informed about the Russia stuff on a couple of occassions now... you seem to be hung up on the dossier... barely anyone is even talking about that anymore... have you been following everything that has happened from Flynn onwards? Even today there were new revelations.

You also seem to be putting words in people's mouths on Russia... at the moment there is a lot of circumstantial stuff as the investigations continue, but you seem to falsely insist that posters here are believing every single word of the speculation.

By the way, I am no Obama fanboi. I think he is admirable in a lot of ways but I have been critical of aspects of his administration. His drone program sickened me to be honest.
 
pulpdriver said:
Fair points and he does do this and is masterful at using Twitter as a distraction however the delay was far longer than those to which we've become accustomed.
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Is this something worth applauding? I don't get it. Do we want our leaders laying smokescreens?
 

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James North said:
I agree the consequences would be enormous, but I struggle with the likely outcomes of these two things both being true.
  • Russia has stuff on the current POTUS, all his team steps down/gets fired etc and .....?? I bet he just keeps going on as POTUS because he's set such a low bar
  • Illegal tapping is true and had no basis - Obama is ruined.
Both are bad, but Trump has set himself up to just keep being in power as POTUS even if he does a heap of s**t wrong. It's fascinating.
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It's certainly fascinating, I've found a new level of morbid fascination with American politics beginning with the circus election that's become a presidency full of non-stop entertainment.

On the two points I don't really think Russia has anything on Trump because if they did I'd be astonished if it hadn't already been intercepted by the NSA, and revealed in his candidacy, particularly if he was under specific surveillance by the previous admin as now suggested. The most damaging thing revealed was some sleazy thing he said to a guy on his show a decade ago.

I tend to think Obama's reputation will be okay provided indictments aren't handed out. If it reaches that point, he'll be ****ed as there's clearly something there.

I do wonder if every party being Russia, Trump and the Obama admin don't all have info on each other and are now locked in some demented Mexican stand-off at a government level. I guess we won't know until something actually happens though. I wish for transparency in government but I wonder if all three don't currently hold revelations that might put the entire world into disarray.
 
TheBrownDog said:
Is this something worth applauding? I don't get it. Do we want our leaders laying smokescreens?
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Not at all. I was suggesting that his usual modus operandi is to see something and tweet immediately. The long delay between the report and his tweet is what makes me consider there's some validity to whatever intel the two that initially reported it have and he had to actually discuss it with his party members.
 
TheBrownDog said:
Lol, wtf.

I said "if it's true, it is a serious scandal". How is that being biased? Wowee. The #FakeNews thing was clearly a bit of humour, thus the hashtag.

That said, your burdens of proof seem to be a big off... if you are describing the Russia stuff as just smoke, you'd have to admit the wiretapping accusations are even less established at this stage.

You seem to be a bit under-informed about the Russia stuff on a couple of occassions now... you seem to be hung up on the dossier... barely anyone is even talking about that anymore... have you been following everything that has happened from Flynn onwards? Even today there were new revelations.

You also seem to be putting words in people's mouths on Russia... at the moment there is a lot of circumstantial stuff as the investigations continue, but you seem to falsely insist that posters here are believing every single word of the speculation.

By the way, I am no Obama fanboi. I think he is admirable in a lot of ways but I have been critical of aspects of his administration. His drone program sickened me to be honest.
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I'm not accusing anyone of believing it all. I said entertaining the allegations. I've seen nothing to suggest that there was anything really bad about the meetings in particular the sessions meetings which as I said earlier the first one was set up by Obama.

Missed the joke, my bad. But let's be honest you do have a fair bit of a left lean on the political spectrum. You're very much a ELE guy not that there's anything wrong with that. We could all use a little more lovin in this world.
 
pulpdriver said:
Not at all. I was suggesting that his usual modus operandi is to see something and tweet immediately. The long delay between the report and his tweet is what makes me consider there's some validity to whatever intel the two that initially reported it have and he had to actually discuss it with his party members.
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He probably just missed that ep of Fox News because he had a driving range swing lesson booked and was watching it on TIVO.
 
James North said:
He probably just missed that ep of Fox News because he had a driving range swing lesson booked and was watching it on TIVO.
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Laughed but this could be serious. Although now he's tweeting about Arnie and the Apprentice so maybe not. Still employing a wait and see attitude.
 
Caiphus said:
And people claiming they take any Abrahamic holy book literally are deluded considering how their internal logic is so contradictory. They either interpret it to suit their own world view our are guided by their culture and power structures. They are susceptible to the cult of personality.
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To be fair it is a pretty good song...

 
Obama bugged Trump. WTF?

He bugged Merkel in 2010, wouldn't be surprised!

Around the time on the news there were reports that they were "investigating" Trump's ties to Russia, too.
 
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CarterS said:
Obama bugged Trump. WTF?

He bugged Merkel in 2010, wouldn't be surprised!

Around the time on the news there were reports that they were "investigating" Trump's ties to Russia, too.
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Obama can't order the bugging of Americans or otherwise interfere with FBI investigations.

If Trump was wiretapped it was off the FBI's bat. Arguing otherwise shows a lack of understanding of how the American system works.
 

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dlanod said:
Obama can't order the bugging of Americans or otherwise interfere with FBI investigations.

If Trump was wiretapped it was off the FBI's bat. Arguing otherwise shows a lack of understanding of how the American system works.
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I'm no expert, but didn't the wiretapping scandal involving Merkel and other world leaders around 2010 prove that they seem to do whatever they want anyway?
 
From my understanding the first wire tapping warrant was denied by a judge but the second was given and it was done by the justice department. It sounds like Trump is blaming that department's investigation on Obama when there is a separation of powers. It was likely above board but Trump has never really given a s**t about objective truth it's just about what he could sell. It sounds like there were wire taps but that they were actually ordered by Obama is dubious. He probably had knowledge of them though.

In regards to the slush fund allegations the reason that hasn't come out in mainstream media is because no one has a primary source. I can only see anything about it on Fox News and you mentioned Forbes online which is a glorified blogging platform. I can't imagine any journalist who had a primary source not moving on the story or any editor from stopping it because they just would not want to get scooped. The amount of collusion required to keep something like that away from the public is inconceivable.
 
Excerpts from an article re was Trump being wiretapped ...

Heat Street (Louise Mensch) Dated November 7th 2016:

Two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed to Heat Street that the FBI sought, and was granted, a FISA court warrant in October, giving counter-intelligence permission to examine the activities of ‘U.S. persons’ in Donald Trump’s campaign with ties to Russia. (link with multiple internal links)

The New York Times (Charlie Savage) Dated January 12th 2017:

WASHINGTON — In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.

The new rules significantly relax longstanding limits on what the N.S.A. may do with the information gathered by its most powerful surveillance operations, which are largely unregulated by American wiretapping laws. These include collecting satellite transmissions, phone calls and emails that cross network switches abroad, and messages between people abroad that cross domestic network switches. (link)

National Review (Andrew McCarthy) Dated January 11th 2017:

[…] To summarize, it appears there were no grounds for a criminal investigation of banking violations against Trump. Presumably based on the fact that the bank or banks at issue were Russian, the Justice Department and the FBI decided to continue investigating on national-security grounds. A FISA application in which Trump was “named” was rejected by the FISA court as overbroad, notwithstanding that the FISA court usually looks kindly on government surveillance requests. A second, more narrow application, apparently not naming Trump, may have been granted five months later; the best the media can say about it, however, is that the server on which the application centers is “possibly” related to the Trump campaign’s “alleged” links to two Russian banks — under circumstances in which the FBI has previously found no “nefarious purpose” in some (undescribed) connection between Trump Tower and at least one Russian bank (whose connection to Putin’s regime is not described). (link with more links)

The Guardian (Julian Borger) Dated Wednesday January 11th, 2016:

The Guardian has learned that the FBI applied for a warrant from the foreign intelligence surveillance (Fisa) court over the summer in order to monitor four members of the Trump team suspected of irregular contacts with Russian officials. The Fisa court turned down the application asking FBI counter-intelligence investigators to narrow its focus. According to one report, the FBI was finally granted a warrant in October, but that has not been confirmed, and it is not clear whether any warrant led to a full investigation. (link)

New York Times ( MATTHEW ROSENBERG, ADAM GOLDMAN and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT ) March 1st 2017:

WASHINGTON — In the Obama administration’s last days, some White House officials scrambled to spread information about Russian efforts to undermine the presidential election — and about possible contacts between associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump and Russians — across the government. Former American officials say they had two aims: to ensure that such meddling isn’t duplicated in future American or European elections, and to leave a clear trail of intelligence for government investigators.

[…] More than a half-dozen current and former officials described various aspects of the effort to preserve and distribute the intelligence, and some said they were speaking to draw attention to the material and ensure proper investigation by Congress. All spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were discussing classified information, nearly all of which remains secret, making an independent public assessment of the competing Obama and Trump administration claims impossible.

The F.B.I. is conducting a wide-ranging counterintelligence investigation into Russia’s meddling in the election, and is examining alleged links between Mr. Trump’s associates and the Russian government. Separately, the House and Senate intelligence committees are conducting their own investigations, though they must rely on information collected by the F.B.I. and intelligence agencies. (link)
 
CarterS said:
I'm no expert, but didn't the wiretapping scandal involving Merkel and other world leaders around 2010 prove that they seem to do whatever they want anyway?
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There's a fundamental difference in the laws covering US intelligence collecting between spying on foreigners and spying on Americans.
 
dlanod said:
There's a fundamental difference in the laws covering US intelligence collecting between spying on foreigners and spying on Americans.
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Yeah, it a real false equivalency.

"Obama's administration killed foreign military operatives so it's only fair to assume he has murdered a few Americans as well".

Really starting to look like another case of Dressing-gown Donald going rogue on Twitter rather than an organised media campaign by his team.
 
I am so sick of people blaming the Police for doing their job.....just watching the news about a woman tasered in Sydney. Apparently she was walking down the street with a knife, threatening people...but some people aren't happy they did that as the woman has a mental problem....er, all the more reason to bring the issue to an end asap..

They had to stop her, get her out of the way of people before anyone got hurt, and the Police as well, and had they just walked up to her, she could well have lashed out at them too..

No wonder law and order is out of control...too many goody twoshoes sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong.

Well done to the Police involved imo..
 
CarterS said:
After Wikileaks dump this morning all I can say is no wonder Trump is at war with the intelligence agencies. some of the stuff in there is crazy.
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its not like that is what Trump is warring with them about though.

Hard to be shocked by this stuff post-Snowden but we certainly didn't take much convincing to let Big Brother in. No violent overthrow needed, just shiny iPhones and Samsung TVs.

Ugh.
 
CarterS said:
Judging from the Wikileaks last year you could make a similar chart with Hillary/DEmocrats > CNN, MSNBC, NYT > Democrat supporters.
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Happy to throw myself in with CNN and the NYT over freaking Breitbart.
 
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