Autopsy AAMI Community Series, 2022: Essendon v St.Kilda

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They obviously don't watch every game but I think they rate Petracca, Oliver, Bont, McKay etc as the elite. Absolute best of the best. Wines, Steele, MacRae your A graders. We don't have a game breaking superstar so far, Steele is as close as we have to it though.
Brownlow medallist is just A-Grade?

Those Melbourne mids get hyped up so much
 

Jade Buddha

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Sharman is the most likely up the ground but King can take the contests inside 50.

Yes he is undersized but I can't justify a guy getting a game ahead of him because of 4 hit outs in 25 ruck contests. I'd prefer the guy who looks a genuine threat up forward as we can't just rely on King.

As I said though, I'd play both as I don't see us being too tall.
You may be able to play both but I think you are under selling Hayes as a forward and as 2nd ruck. His 4 hit outs are irrelevant really. He splits the ruck contest then impacts the next ground ball contest. I thought Buckley summed it up pretty well in commentary when he talked about him making an impact particularly in the forward line and work rate. For way too long we’ve lacked fierce competitors.

For me hit outs are an overrated skill unless you are Paddy Ryder. You need to be a strong body that can hit and block other big bodies and be able to play as another midfielder once it hits the deck, ala Marshall. Hayes showed that last night.

I like what Sharman brings he’s a highly skilled forward and worth developing in the forward line but he has very little physical presence. Still is worth his spot.
 
King, Gresham and Snags are the guys that I think still have elite potential.

Bucks called Membrey elite during the commentary. Couldn’t believe he was still underrated.

Speaking of Bucks, he’s very good in the commentary box I think. Joey too.
 

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We gotta stop using the AA team as a justification for what constitutes an elite player - its selection process doesn’t exactly have the most integrity. And if we are judging elite as the best 5 players in any given position then they couldn’t all fit into the team anyway.

If we play as a team, and we dominate as a team, we will win. Then for entertainments sake the media/fans can pick apart which players of that team are the elites, and the stars, but what really matters is the team. Ideally you’d have different players stepping up into the starry limelight every week, to make up the natural inconsistencies in sport. Some may do this more then others, and that’s what’ll make them leaders. But a leader is still beholden to the team, and vice versa.

Anyway, Jack Higgins is definitely capable of being that type of player. Oozes, X-factor, good overhead mark, a very creative, make something out of nothing type player. I think he’ll have a few dominant, BOG-esque games this year - he’s simply a likely type. Could definitely lift himself into the top echelon of small forwards. All the signs are there IMO, and he’s only a year older then King, so you’d think he’s only gonna get better.

TLDR: team of champions/leaders over a champion team + IMO Higgins is gonna go up a gear.

This.
 
wow there are some serious demons on this page - if you cannot see how good rowan marshall is and how important he is to us, you are literally deluded. Last year we were 8-5 with him in the side - one of those losses was to the cats where he went off at half time when it was 20 shots to 5 at half time (of course we were only a goal up....) Even last night, he didn't win all the hitouts but he outbodied Draper 5-6 times which resulted in clear free kicks (hence no hit out). If he plays 20 games last year, we make finals even tho we were absolutely useless for most of the year.

Love how saints supporters have players who they rate no matter what... Bytel, Sharman, Freeman, Spencer White fit this category. Good teams have selection pressure and pick guys based on form (look at Melbourne, higher rated draft picks like weiterman not getting a game because lesser likes working harder/better form). Bytel is obviously nowhere near it if he isn't playing in either pre season game (when we have a squad of 26) so how can he be in the frame for R1??? Sharman had some decent games but you don't get a game because you had a few good games 6 months ago. Lets not delude ourselves, he kicked 4 goals in one of the most bruise free games of footy I've ever seen - Freo and the Saints literally had 35 players out between them and the players obviously wanted the season just to end (waiting for the "freo were playing for finals" comment, they had to win by a big margin and the dons had to lose to Collingwood who were 17th and were completely done..) He had an opportunity last week against carlton and he was very poor - showed he couldn't play as a second ruck (not his fault at all) so the only option is to play him permanently fwd. If Ryder doesn't play, we have to play a 2nd ruck that is at least competitive at the contest (which hayes is - agree very similar to blake). We probably won't go King Membury Hayes/Ryder Marshall Sharman because its just very top heavy up fwd. Could be a good sub option tbh.

I'd replace Clarke with NWM - the pies will blood a ton of youngsters too so not like he's gonna debut against seasoned vets - he's played SANFL so even tho he's slight framed, he's used to the big bodies - could easily slot in on a wing, provide a bitof X factor. No point going back to the well with Kent or Long. Melbourne brought Kozzie Picket in raw as and look how quickly he adapted to afl. He didn't set the world alight in his first year but why play a player who has been on our list for 6-7 years and shown very little when you've got a player so skilled just waiting in the wings...

Just so you know…
Bytel didn’t play because he is injured, not because he’s “nowhere near it.”
 

moirae42

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I'd be keen to see Sharman for at least the first five weeks. Absolute natural footballer. See if he gets anywhere near his month of work from last year. Dont forget how good he is in the air.

As for Hayes, I'm glad he's on our list, thats for sure. Who knows if we will even see Paddy this year! He can at the very least make a contest inside our F50, which is exactly what we need with our smalls. Good foil for King and will drag that double team off him.
 

prophetic1

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Bucks called Membrey elite during the commentary. Couldn’t believe he was still underrated.

Speaking of Bucks, he’s very good in the commentary box I think. Joey too.
Yeah I was pretty impressed by BUCKS in commentary...calm, considered and analytical as you'd expect with the footy brain he must have developed over years of coaching and playing...nothing big mouthed about him................. in this day and age that is likeable!
 

Premium

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Mason Wood is elite on 5 games. Marshall might be elite once he becomes a solo ruckman again but if a Carlton supporter was lauding one of theirs as elite without any real form line we'd have a laugh at them.
This season they have to prove how good they are before we start saying we have elite players. We all be watching to see how the guys perform then we can comment how good they are - a lot of the players have a lot to prove.
Marshall is one of them.
 

Premium

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I'd be keen to see Sharman for at least the first five weeks. Absolute natural footballer. See if he gets anywhere near his month of work from last year. Dont forget how good he is in the air.

As for Hayes, I'm glad he's on our list, thats for sure. Who knows if we will even see Paddy this year! He can at the very least make a contest inside our F50, which is exactly what we need with our smalls. Good foil for King and will drag that double team off him.
Hayes needs game time to get use to the speed of the game , but for his first outing he will only improve - good pick up.
far better than old crocs like McKernan and Frawley , at least we might have a fit body to use when injuries occur.
 
Every disposal that was sent his way was a hospital pass early on. Seb Ross worked hard to feed him I noticed. At every opportunity he tried to get it in his hands.

No wonder he struggled with Seb supplying.
When Seb got a deliberate out of bounds against him, i couldn't help thinking that if Seb had tried to kick it out of bounds it probably would have gone through the goals.
 
Fmd sharman is not a better player than hayes lol
He is a better natural fwd for sure but he is not a better player yet

For starters hayes won a
BOG in a GF and third place in the leagues best players

Coopers kicked a few goals and we all went nutz

We are ten mins in and bytel is s**t, hayes is average and cooper can ruck and marshall is not elite
 

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SaintJunior

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My take on Sharman is that he is a natural goal kicker reminds me a bit of Fritsch in that he just seems to know how it not look like he is doing much but ends up with goals.

But too me he looks like he is not overly fit, looks to be labouring a bit and is out of form. His form against Carlton was poor and his fumble when he went one handed to pick up the ball against Essendon was poor. Think he needs to get some intensity into his game.

He is still a young kid , being out of the side will not kill him. Clearly has talent but has a few areas requiring work.

Have seen nothing to suggest Sharman could play the role Hayes is, to play as a back up ruck you need to be competitive and a good tank and at this stage Hayes has Sharman covered in both.
 

Ads734

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I think Coops suffers from the Hunter Clark , Nicky Dal syndrome in that he looks so effortless that it looks like he isn’t trying. Which I don’t think is true btw. However, one thing we struggled with at times last year and against Essendon was exiting our back 50 after behinds and other situations. I feel a lot more comfortable with Sharman , Marshal, King and hates all being options as get out options as they are all such great marking options
 
Brownlow medallist is just A-Grade?

Those Melbourne mids get hyped up so much


Yeah I think so. Wines is a high work rate mid but he's not Petracca, Bont or Dusty. There is a mix of champions and high possession players in the recent brownlows. Priddis, Tom Mitchell, Cotchin, Neale and Wines all big accumulator first use types. Abblett, Danger, Dusty and Fyfe more the superstar game changer types.
 
Being at the game Essendon supporters took the game way too seriously! It was almost embarrassing how excited they got in that last quarter.


We've been starved of footy. I was getting stressed that we'd drop the game after leading all match. I'm glad both sides played it out, if they invite a crowd they should put on a show.
 
Bucks called Membrey elite during the commentary. Couldn’t believe he was still underrated.

Speaking of Bucks, he’s very good in the commentary box I think. Joey too.


Membrey's probably not quite elite IMO but he's a gun and one of our most reliable players over a long period. I see him like a Jack Darling type of player. He'd get a run in any other side and be a good contributor and that alone puts him in pretty rare company. He's probably got to be compared to other KPFs like Hawkins, Kennedy, Cameron, Lynch, Riewoldt, Brown, McKay, Walker, Naughton etc to be considered elite. To me he still sits below most of them. He's still criminally underrated outside of St Kilda though.
 
This season they have to prove how good they are before we start saying we have elite players. We all be watching to see how the guys perform then we can comment how good they are - a lot of the players have a lot to prove.
Marshall is one of them.


I think Marshall is definitely potentially elite, if Paddy doesn't play much he should get a good run at proving it.
 
Fmd sharman is not a better player than hayes lol
He is a better natural fwd for sure but he is not a better player yet

For starters hayes won a
BOG in a GF and third place in the leagues best players

Coopers kicked a few goals and we all went nutz

We are ten mins in and bytel is sh*t, hayes is average and cooper can ruck and marshall is not elite


Sharman was probably the best thing that happened all of last year. He looks like a potential star, I don't think it has to be a competition between them. He should be getting games on merit after his performance last year. Ratts doesn't always manage the list the way that I think makes sense. Battle was absolutely mismanaged last year and a few others were given games without any real obvious merit. I know everyone thinks it was a good thing but the way Dunstan existed the club was really messy and badly handled too. I've not seen anything like it in the last 10 years of footy.
 
Jan 14, 2012
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You may be able to play both but I think you are under selling Hayes as a forward and as 2nd ruck. His 4 hit outs are irrelevant really. He splits the ruck contest then impacts the next ground ball contest. I thought Buckley summed it up pretty well in commentary when he talked about him making an impact particularly in the forward line and work rate. For way too long we’ve lacked fierce competitors.

For me hit outs are an overrated skill unless you are Paddy Ryder. You need to be a strong body that can hit and block other big bodies and be able to play as another midfielder once it hits the deck, ala Marshall. Hayes showed that last night.

I like what Sharman brings he’s a highly skilled forward and worth developing in the forward line but he has very little physical presence. Still is worth his spot.
Fair enough.

I think you are over stating his impact on the game to he honest but clearly we aren't going to agree.

I watched the game again last night and nothing really stood out to me too much.

I thought for a 193cm guy he was still fairly lumbering and looked no better when the ball hit the deck than Draper and Wright.

He had one or two instances when you could say he got the ball to ground but at the same time didn't look like taking a contested mark.

I'm not sure he should be ahead of Campbell if we a desperate for a 2nd ruck option as Grundy and Cox will make him mince meat anyway.

Fingers crossed Ryder can get up and we don't have to worry about it.
 
We need more mids.

Team.is actually quite strong forward, back and ruck bit we have zero midfield depth once we lose our starting players.




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So we have the opportunity of selecting someone in the Supplementary Selection Period. Should we have another look at Freeman as a backup mid?
 

Ads734

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Yeah I think so. Wines is a high work rate mid but he's not Petracca, Bont or Dusty. There is a mix of champions and high possession players in the recent brownlows. Priddis, Tom Mitchell, Cotchin, Neale and Wines all big accumulator first use types. Abblett, Danger, Dusty and Fyfe more the superstar game changer types.
I see what you're getting at, at the end of the day it is really a matter of definition and parameters. For instance If we were to grade players in
A+
A
B+
B
etc etc we may get a much bette indication.
 

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