Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

dogwatch

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Prefer him back, just isn’t a natural goalkicker. Missed some very gettable goals as they’ve been “defender kicks”. It’s a skill that can be worked on & improved though.

I feel it depends on what we end up with in trade time. If we can get a quality KPF, send him back. If we can get a quality KPD, leave him forward. Getting both is my preference though
That seems to be ducking the core question of how best to use an elite KPP talent. Surely that's the question we need to answer first.

I'd rather the club made up its mind how they want to use him and went into the draft & trade period with a clear set of targets rather than just see what happens.

Obviously if they can't get what they want they might have to re-think their approach to Naughton.
 

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ossie_21

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That seems to be ducking the core question of how best to use an elite KPP talent. Surely that's the question we need to answer first.

I'd rather the club made up its mind how they want to use him and went into the draft & trade period with a clear set of targets rather than just see what happens.

Obviously if they can't get what they want they might have to re-think their approach to Naughton.
Yeah that’s true, acknowledging KPD’s are somewhat easier to find based on the current status of who appears to be gettable, I think it’s best to stick with him as a forward. Apart from Cameron who probably won’t want to come, there are no gettable KPF’s of a good age that stand out.

Not my desired outcome, but I think that is what the recruiters & MC would look at
 

Braybrook Son

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It’s a tough one that I’m sure even the coaches aren’t sure on, however, you blokes that keep saying KPDs are easier to pick up, they’re everywhere here and there, you’re kidding yourself. How many times have we had a gun KPD on our list in the last 30 years?

Apart from Brian Lake and Dale Morris, how many others have we had?
 

Mattdougie

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That seems to be ducking the core question of how best to use an elite KPP talent. Surely that's the question we need to answer first.

I'd rather the club made up its mind how they want to use him and went into the draft & trade period with a clear set of targets rather than just see what happens.

Obviously if they can't get what they want they might have to re-think their approach to Naughton.
Yeah a players happiness is irrelevant lol

Have a chat to Tom Boyd and see what he says about being happy
 

dogwatch

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It’s a tough one that I’m sure even the coaches aren’t sure on, however, you blokes that keep saying KPDs are easier to pick up, they’re everywhere here and there, you’re kidding yourself. How many times have we had a gun KPD on our list in the last 30 years?

Apart from Brian Lake and Dale Morris, how many others have we had?
I wouldn't even count Morris as a KPD although he has often been asked to play tall.

Lake and Grant the only ones I can think of since about 1990. Lots of others were very serviceable but not elite.

If they were that easy to pick up why haven't we got a couple?
 

Braybrook Son

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I wouldn't even count Morris as a KPD although he has often been asked to play tall.

Lake and Grant the only ones I can think of since about 1990. Lots of others were very serviceable but not elite.

If they were that easy to pick up why haven't we got a couple?
Grant played there for one or two years but he was a CHF
 

Snarls Barkley

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I like him as a defender more. He was as good as any 18 year old key defender has ever been last year and was very much deserving of his 4th place B&F finish. He has the perfect attributes for the modern day key defender, elite closing speed, a brilliant intercept mark and seems to have incredible defensive instincts. There was times last year he’d spoil a contest and it would be quickly rebounded back in and he’d influence another contest 30 metres away and I couldn’t work out how he’d got from A to B so quickly.

I’ve still been impressed by what he’s done as a forward but it does feel like a waste at times when our best defender is getting 7 touches down the other end of the ground. He isn’t a natural forward like he is a defender but his marking and athleticism makes up for that at the moment. I don’t think he played junior football as a forward, so as a guy who is 14 games into his craft he has done a remarkable job. Has almost identical stats to Harry McKay who most would consider as one of the most promising key forwards coming through. You would think he would get a lot better the more he plays and learns how to play forward.

I don’t think we’re in a particular rush to make a decision on his position. Michael Hurley was great as a defender in 2010, played most of the next three years as a forward where he didn’t quite cut it, went back and was as good as he was before he went forward. I think for the rest of this year we’ll try and give the Naughton/Schache pairing some time and re-assess at the end of the season. Don’t think the forward experiment will make Naughton any worse of a defender.
 

Next Waiting

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Ive enjoyed the civility of this discussion. Good thread DW with a good question?

What a great problem to have and conundrum to solve and with Naughts there isn't really a wrong answer, maybe just a better one.
 

mattwa

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Forward.

Name a 19 year old bloke that has had a bigger impact forward like he has in some of his bigger games this year.

Bloke has potential to be the most devastating KPF in the game and has the swagger and confidence to back it up. You dont throw that away yet after a few quiet games where the 2nd best fwd with him was billie gowers and Ryan gardner
 

Mofra

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I'm going with forward, simply because it's much, much harder to find a KPF than it is to find a KPD.
The way he attacks the ball in the air is a joy to watch. The fact he's even getting senior games as a 19 year old KPP is a bonus, imagine him with 3-4 pre-seasons under his belt.
 

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Unorth

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I don't mind either way, and perhaps in the future he can go either end depending on need.

But what I think we need to do after this season is recruit a quality KPD or KPF, so we can lock down one position for Naughts and keep him there. If we land a great KPD he can stay forward and get used to that position. Recruit a KPF and we can put him back in defense.

Either way I think we need to do recruit in so he can really hone in on one position and excel at it.
 

dogzrule

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We have to remember he has only had 2 AFL pre seasons and still has heaps of development

Also Depends on our list structure, the issue we have is that Scache was playing VFL and we don’t have any tall backs with size apart from Trengove (Cordy is a 3rd tall for mine)

If we can recruit a couple of decent mature key position players I dare say Naughton will play as a third tall forward given our dearth of mid sized backs

Once he has a couple more pre seasons he will move into the number 1 key position role, probably as a forward I suspect


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Mofra

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We have to remember he has only had 2 AFL pre seasons and still has heaps of development
Yep - and both of those he spent pre-season in defence. He actually played JLT1 in defence IIRC and was thrown forward partly in desperation in JLT 2 where his attack on the ball in flight and his positioning proved to be surprisingly good.
 

stefoid

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It’s a tough one that I’m sure even the coaches aren’t sure on, however, you blokes that keep saying KPDs are easier to pick up, they’re everywhere here and there, you’re kidding yourself. How many times have we had a gun KPD on our list in the last 30 years?

Apart from Brian Lake and Dale Morris, how many others have we had?
Same logic applied to key forwards in the same timeframe? Chris Grant. 2>1 So KPDs twice as likely. Thats ratio seems about right to me, and more of an indictment on our recruitment of KPP as a whole than anything.
 

stefoid

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Forward.

Name a 19 year old bloke that has had a bigger impact forward like he has in some of his bigger games this year.

Bloke has potential to be the most devastating KPF in the game and has the swagger and confidence to back it up. You dont throw that away yet after a few quiet games where the 2nd best fwd with him was billie gowers and Ryan gardner
Tony Locket and Wayne Carey.

you = pwned
 

Libba39

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Forward.

1. He's got the potential to kick a bag
2. Moving him again would be bad for his confidence
3. Schache would not play as well without him there to give the defense something else to worry about.
 

DylanW

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Tony Locket and Wayne Carey.

you = pwned
You forgot about Chris Grant

He kind of has a little bit of a Granty feel to him. Too early to say for sure

I think the best outcome would be for him to become elite as a forward, and then to move around the ground like Grant did, CHF and CHB, to help the team where there is a need. As DW said CHB/CHF versatility is as rare as hens teeth. I hope we have Grant mentoring him in some capcity
 
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Samael

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Forward.

Name a 19 year old bloke that has had a bigger impact forward like he has in some of his bigger games this year.
Jack Darling 2011, Jeremy Cameron 2012, Michael Hurley 2009 (who proceeded to struggle up forward the following years). It's not as uncommon as you think.

Just because a player has a few good games in a certain position early in their career doesn't mean they have what it takes to sustain consistency there. Just ask Daniel Rich; in 2009, everyone was sure he'd be the next superstar midfielder, only to end up a good solid half-back flanker.

Bloke has potential to be the most devastating KPF in the game and has the swagger and confidence to back it up. You dont throw that away yet after a few quiet games where the 2nd best fwd with him was billie gowers and Ryan gardner
He also has the potential to be the next Michael Hurley or Jake Carlisle; having a few amazing games up forward, but never able to sustain consistency. It's all well and good to be a great contested mark, but unless you have the right instincts, you'll never be more than a 30-goal a year key-forward forward.

Also, I don't believe the idea that you need to have 2 or more key forwards to get the best out of one or the other. We won the flag in 2016 without any key forwards. Richmond won in 2017 with just Jack Riewoldt, and Geelong are the best performed team this year with just Hawkins. A high quality player is more than capable of playing a lone key forward role.
 

mattwa

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Jack Darling 2011, Jeremy Cameron 2012, Michael Hurley 2009 (who proceeded to struggle up forward the following years). It's not as uncommon as you think.

Just because a player has a few good games in a certain position early in their career doesn't mean they have what it takes to sustain consistency there. Just ask Daniel Rich; in 2009, everyone was sure he'd be the next superstar midfielder, only to end up a good solid half-back flanker.


He also has the potential to be the next Michael Hurley or Jake Carlisle; having a few amazing games up forward, but never able to sustain consistency. It's all well and good to be a great contested mark, but unless you have the right instincts, you'll never be more than a 30-goal a year key-forward forward.

Also, I don't believe the idea that you need to have 2 or more key forwards to get the best out of one or the other. We won the flag in 2016 without any key forwards. Richmond won in 2017 with just Jack Riewoldt, and Geelong are the best performed team this year with just Hawkins. A high quality player is more than capable of playing a lone key forward role.
The blokes you.mentioned had a far more functional forwardline and weren't asked to play as the number 1 key forward so I disagree. Also they didnt hsve as big of an impact as Naughtons game v Richmond or his second half against Brisbane (who he gave the AA CHB to be Harris Andrews a bath). Also those blokes have played forward there whole Junior career where as naughton didn't get pushed forward until the end of pre season
 

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I think its crazy Bulldogs fans want to move Naughton out of the f50, a 19yo playing forward for the first time in his career is doing it admirably, and thats without the required strength for one on one contests. He's a key forward prospect the likes of which I've been waiting my whole life to see in a dogs jumper.

Give him some time to fill out, and give our team time to figure how to kick the long high ball where he can run and jump at it rather than on his head and watch us reap the benefits. (Also if he's consistently getting blocked/held, we should take a look at how the Pies free up Cox when the slow play results in a high ball inside 50, they are excellent at waiting for a block and then putting the ball out in front of him to run and jump at it.

Side note correlating a player being played out of position and mental health issues is extremely disingenuous, and where a player wants to play falls so far below team needs/balance as to not come into match commitee's decision making
 

WallyStringhaus

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His last 6 weeks haven't been nearly as effective as the preceeding 8 weeks but I think there are legitimate reasons for it.

That 6 weeks has seen us play the top 3 teams on the ladder (2 of which were away from home) all of whom have experienced and hardened back lines. We also played North who, as evidenced by article on AFL website today, have had the second best defense in the comp under Rhys Shaw. Lastly we played in horrendous conditions, again on the road, against Port.

That's a pretty tough stretch of games. If he continues to struggle against the likes of St.Kilda, Ess, Melb, Freo under the roof at Marvel then I may change my mind but for me he stays forward.
 

stefoid

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You forgot about Chris Grant

He kind of has a little bit of a Granty feel to him. Too early to say for sure
Form what he has shown so far he is more athletic than Grant and has better hands. Naughton's marking ability is next level - combination of Jeremy Howe ability to fly and Brad johnsons vice-like hands, but in a 195cm package. That is Carey territory (in terms of marking). Grant could take the occasional speccy if the ride was there, but I wouldnt call him a pack busting forward. He was more of a competitive workhorse who was great at ground level, and without any real weaknesses except goal kicking yips. As he became older and thicker in the last part of his career he became quite brutal at ground level - he was a big presence that cleared a lot of space for his teammates.

FWIW I reckon if we had a credible KPF to replace Grant when he was in his prime, he should have been playing as CHB. Would have been on an equal footing with jackovitch as best defender in the league. Granty at his peak as a forward was a decent player who averaged 2 goals a game in an era when the elite CHFs were averaging 3. Lot more space in the forward line back then and FFs were kicking huge bags by todays standards in a strictly 1:1 defence. They would stand and chat in the goal square for 3 minutes when the ball was down the other end.
 
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Kennel Master

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I kind of like Naughton forward, but after the weekend I think he could do an effective job as 2nd ruck as well.

He is mobile and can take a mark, so would be a handful for opposition rucks.
He might not get the tap, but around the ground he would be very effective.
It would get him involved more as sometime at FF he doesn't get many touches.

We get the ball he can run forward. Who picks him up?

Also English at FF gives us a different look.
I think this sort of rotation could work well.

This could be for say 5 minutes per quarter.

Anyhow, we shall see.

KM
 
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