Strategy Aaron Naughton - Key Defender or Key Forward?

Antares

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On the stupid subject of "point scoring", how about everyone who posted in this thread after his 4 goals against Geelong? Got to score those Bigfooty "points" when you can. If Naughton has another 3-4 goal game against a Hurleyless Essendon, I'm sure this thread will be flooded with people yet again, claiming he's 100% a forward and anyone saying defence is wrong.
 

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BallaratBulldog

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We have nothing much else forward so he stays forward. Pretty simple. I’m willing to bet we find a solution one way or another in defence before one in forwardline based on usual Doggies sides present themselves with.

Some/ most of the kicking in to the fifty gives him next to no chance. That’s not his fault completely unless the odd lead is poorly timed.
 

Dogsman16

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I know it’s not direct goal output but his game was better than what the stats suggest. He setup a couple and he brings the ball to ground, which should have resulted in some goals.

We burn him also. His team mates do him no favours. The Dunkley kick in particular.

We also need to do a whinge in the media about his treatment. Might earn him some well deserved frees.

Brown didn’t even outmark him once.
 

Antares

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We have nothing much else forward so he stays forward.
By that logic, why stop there? We don't have any better forwards than Bontempelli; should Bontempelli play permanently forward?
Pretty simple. I’m willing to bet we find a solution one way or another in defence before one in forwardline based on usual Doggies sides present themselves with.
Who was our forward line solution in 2016, before most of us knew who Aaron Naughton was?
Tom Boyd? On the back of one game? Stringer? Even though he was abysmal at marking the ball?

I believe in playing players to their strengths. Keeping Naughton in the forward line is not playing to his strengths, and it's bottlenecking his true potential.

It baffles me that we're trying to convert this elite intercept KPD like Naughton into a forward, while with Lewis Young, someone we drafted as a forward, is being converted to a defender.
 

BallaratBulldog

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By that logic, why stop there? We don't have any better forwards than Bontempelli; should Bontempelli play permanently forward?

Who was our forward line solution in 2016, before most of us knew who Aaron Naughton was?
Tom Boyd? On the back of one game? Stringer? Even though he was abysmal at marking the ball?

I believe in playing players to their strengths. Keeping Naughton in the forward line is not playing to his strengths, and it's bottlenecking his true potential.

It baffles me that we're trying to convert this elite intercept KPD like Naughton into a forward, while with Lewis Young, someone we drafted as a forward, is being converted to a defender.

2016 isn’t the norm. Teams always at lest have one key forward. Even then it was Boyd who delivered on the day. Where as 2008-2010 was a different ball game come prelim/qualifying final and the Buddy, Cloke and Reiwoldts won the day over our smaller forwardline. Now you have Kennedy/darling, Hawkins, Cox, Lynch etc at the top teams in the now.

Naughton strengths is his making, particularly with a jump at it. I don’t see the issue being used forward

However, I agree that Lewis Young has been stiff many occasion in what we do with him/not play him.
 

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I just don’t see how Naughton solves our backline issues.

Naughton wouldn’t have changed the game today as a defender. We lack someone to take the kpfs that Trengove is currently taking most weeks. I see Naughton as a second kpd who can also play the third kpd role/interceptor role. That’s not a knock on him he could be an all Australian CHB but it doesn’t fix our FB issues.

Yes he’s up and down as a forward and he constantly is denied a jump at the ball plenty of times illegally but we’ve seen what he can offer up there when he’s on we just need (like the entire team as well) for him to close the gap between his good and bad performances go give us that consistent option.
 

cecil

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It's also glossed over the positive effect having him forward has on Schache. They've played 9 games together forward, and in 6 of those one of them has had a very good game.
 

Antares

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2016 isn’t the norm. Teams always at lest have one key forward. Even then it was Boyd who delivered on the day. Where as 2008-2010 was a different ball game come prelim/qualifying final and the Buddy, Cloke and Reiwoldts won the day over our smaller forwardline. Now you have Kennedy/darling, Hawkins, Cox, Lynch etc at the top teams in the now.
2016 isn't the norm? Yet you go onto reference 2008-2010 to support your argument? What do you mean it isn't the norm? It was good enough to win us a Premiership 3 years ago, why shouldn't it be the norm?

Even then it was Boyd who delivered on the day
Who delivered in the elimination, semi and prelim finals? Or the rest of the H&A season?

Naughton strengths is his making, particularly with a jump at it. I don’t see the issue being used forward
Same goes for McGovern, Rance, Lever, May, Haynes, H.Grundy, Tarrant, Andrews, Liam Jones, and a whole myriad of other defenders. Not all of them have good enough forward lines to compensate either, particularly Melbourne.

If contested marking was all it took to merit a move up forward, many more teams would do it. To be a high quality forward, you need INSTINCT; something Naughton very clearly lacks.

Bad delivery an issue? Let's rewind back about 10-15 years. Remember when Carlton were winning all those spoons? They had a player called Brendan Fevola who was still winning Colemans in a team that was definitely not known for high quality delivery. How? Not only was he a great mark, but he had lightning goalscoring instincts. He always knew when and where to lead, when to run in behind, etc. Some say Naughton will learn this, but for me, some players are born with it, others aren't. Toby Greene- born with it. Billy Gowers- not so much.
 

Dogsman16

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Let’s face it, if Schache had better capabilities to win the ball in the air then at least the opposition would somewhat have to think about putting the shutdown KPP off Naughton.

Aaron just isn’t helped in any facet by his team. He takes number one defender every week, his team mates burn him and there’s no consideration from the opposition that the other dogs tall forward might get off the chain.

Schache has taken 4 contested marks in 9 games. He just doesn’t threaten aerially enough to draw defenders. Meaning a defender is glued to Naughton basically all game.
 

Antares

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I just don’t see how Naughton solves our backline issues.

Naughton wouldn’t have changed the game today as a defender.
Wrong.
Neither you, nor anyone really knows how the game would've gone had he started in defence. Outright claiming he wouldn't have changed anything is ridiculous.

That being said, you can logically conclude we would've conceded less goals, because Naughton has proven himself an excellent defender, and could've only been an improvement over Cordy.
We lack someone to take the kpfs that Trengove is currently taking most weeks. I see Naughton as a second kpd who can also play the third kpd role/interceptor role. That’s not a knock on him he could be an all Australian CHB but it doesn’t fix our FB issues.
:think:
:moustache:

Yes he’s up and down as a forward and he constantly is denied a jump at the ball plenty of times illegally but we’ve seen what he can offer up there when he’s on we just need (like the entire team as well) for him to close the gap between his good and bad performances go give us that consistent option.
We've also seen he can produce elite football in defence, except he's backed it up with consistency.

and as a result of keeping him forward, his optimal potential may be permanently bottlenecked by being forced to play a role we've neglected since Barry Hall retired.
 

cecil

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Same goes for McGovern, Rance, Lever, May, Haynes, H.Grundy, Tarrant, Andrews, Liam Jones, and a whole myriad of other defenders. Not all of them have good enough forward lines to compensate either, particularly Melbourne.
ummm...

McGovern has Darling and Kennedy
Rance has Reiwoldt and now Lynch
Haynes has Cameron, and then a mix of Patton, Himmelberg (30 goals this yr) and Finlayson (also 30 goals)
Grundy had Buddy Franklin, and then either Tippet or Sam Reid
Harris Andrews has Hipwood (on track for 35-40 this yr)
Tarrant has Ben Brown
Lever and May have McDonald, who may be out of form now but kicked over 50 goals last yr

and Liam Jones played forward for the first 7 years of his career, and never kicked more goals than Naughton already has this year. Him playing back isn't at a cost to their forward line. If he didn't play back he would have ben delisted three yeats ago.
 

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WallyStringhaus

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On the stupid subject of "point scoring", how about everyone who posted in this thread after his 4 goals against Geelong? Got to score those Bigfooty "points" when you can. If Naughton has another 3-4 goal game against a Hurleyless Essendon, I'm sure this thread will be flooded with people yet again, claiming he's 100% a forward and anyone saying defence is wrong.
Naughton up forward gives us something we haven't had since Barry Hall a decade ago, a player that can mark the ball Inside 50 at an elite level. We have not had a player in the top 20 for marks inside 50 since 2011. Naughton is 8th this year which, for someone who has never played forward before, is remarkable.

He also is the best contested mark in the comp at just 19. He has the potential to be both the best key forward and best key back in the game. I, like many others, choose forward. You, like many others, choose back.

Why be so belligerent though?

You are insulting others for boasting in this thread when Naughton plays well forward, yet are doing the exact same when he has a poor match up front...
 

Antares

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Let’s face it, if Schache had better capabilities to win the ball in the air then at least the opposition would somewhat have to think about putting the shutdown KPP off Naughton.

Aaron just isn’t helped in any facet by his team. He takes number one defender every week, his team mates burn him and there’s no consideration from the opposition that the other dogs tall forward might get off the chain.

Schache has taken 4 contested marks in 9 games. He just doesn’t threaten aerially enough to draw defenders. Meaning a defender is glued to Naughton basically all game.
Why do people keep mentioning Schache? Or Naughton "taking the #1 defender"? Defensive matchups change all the time within matches.

Schache was kicking goals at the same rate last year and didn't have Naughton to look after him in the forward line. If Schache is an AFL standard player, he shouldn't need any tall forward to share the burden with. Just look at Jack Riewoldt in 2017-2018; sole key forward for Richmond, always got the #1 defender, didn't always have high goal tallies but he was a good enough player to impact games consistently. Still not convinced? Riewoldt much older and experienced than Schache? Rewind to 2010, won the Coleman as a 22 year old.
 

Antares

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ummm...

McGovern has Darling and Kennedy
So? Those two missed games too, yet they usually kept McGovern in defence.
Rance has Reiwoldt and now Lynch
See above, and apply the same to below too.

From 2010-2018, Riewoldt was Richmond's sole good key forward, unless you want to include that spud Vickery. Why didn't Richmond throw Rance up forward to give him some help? I'm sure Rance could've been handy in the forward line knowing how good his marking is.
Lever and May have McDonald, who may be out of form now but kicked over 50 goals last yr
Who cares about last year? Why aren't they playing those guys up forward this year?

Naughton up forward gives us something we haven't had since Barry Hall a decade ago, a player that can mark the ball Inside 50 at an elite level. We have not had a player in the top 20 for marks inside 50 since 2011. Naughton is 8th this year which, for someone who has never played forward before, is remarkable.
So? All that proves is he's a good mark, not necessarily a high quality forward, or that he's better off in the forward line than defence.

He also is the best contested mark in the comp at just 19. He has the potential to be both the best key forward and best key back in the game. I, like many others, choose forward. You, like many others, choose back.
Again with the marks. Makes you wonder why we didn't just play Brian Lake up forward; even he took big contested marks in the few times Rocket tried him there.

Why be so belligerent though?

You are insulting others for boasting in this thread when Naughton plays well forward, yet are doing the exact same when he has a poor match up front...
Insulting? What insulting? Are you really this precious?

If people like you are going to get on your high horse every time Naughton has a good game up forward, I'm entitled to do the same after games that support the opposite side of the argument.
 

footscray1973

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2016 isn't the norm? Yet you go onto reference 2008-2010 to support your argument? What do you mean it isn't the norm? It was good enough to win us a Premiership 3 years ago, why shouldn't it be the norm?


Who delivered in the elimination, semi and prelim finals? Or the rest of the H&A season?


Same goes for McGovern, Rance, Lever, May, Haynes, H.Grundy, Tarrant, Andrews, Liam Jones, and a whole myriad of other defenders. Not all of them have good enough forward lines to compensate either, particularly Melbourne.

If contested marking was all it took to merit a move up forward, many more teams would do it. To be a high quality forward, you need INSTINCT; something Naughton very clearly lacks.

Bad delivery an issue? Let's rewind back about 10-15 years. Remember when Carlton were winning all those spoons? They had a player called Brendan Fevola who was still winning Colemans in a team that was definitely not known for high quality delivery. How? Not only was he a great mark, but he had lightning goalscoring instincts. He always knew when and where to lead, when to run in behind, etc. Some say Naughton will learn this, but for me, some players are born with it, others aren't. Toby Greene- born with it. Billy Gowers- not so much.
Fevola didn’t have a breakout year until he was 22. In fact in the 4 seasons before that he had one game where he kicked 5 goals. (In his first 2 career games he had 1 disposal in each and no score.)
 

Antares

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Fevola didn’t have a breakout year until he was 22. In fact in the 4 seasons before that he had one game where he kicked 5 goals. (In his first 2 career games he had 1 disposal in each and no score.)
I'm not familar with the early part of Fevola's career. I brought him up because he's an example of a player who consistently scored goals in spite of poor delivery. For all I know he had a different physical development to Naughton.

A more apt comparison to Naughton up forward is of course Michael Hurley. A great mark who played some stellar games up forward in his first year, but never found consistency, even after 5 years of development in that role. Some players just don't have goalscoring instinct, even though their marking ability appears to be majestic.
 

WallyStringhaus

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So? Those two missed games too, yet they usually kept McGovern in defence.

See above, and apply the same to below too.

From 2010-2018, Riewoldt was Richmond's sole good key forward, unless you want to include that spud Vickery. Why didn't Richmond throw Rance up forward to give him some help? I'm sure Rance could've been handy in the forward line knowing how good his marking is.

Who cares about last year? Why aren't they playing those guys up forward this year?


So? All that proves is he's a good mark, not necessarily a high quality forward, or that he's better off in the forward line than defence.


Again with the marks. Makes you wonder why we didn't just play Brian Lake up forward; even he took big contested marks in the few times Rocket tried him there.



Insulting? What insulting? Are you really this precious?

If people like you are going to get on your high horse every time Naughton has a good game up forward, I'm entitled to do the same after games that support the opposite side of the argument.
Not precious at all, you're just being a dick.

What's best for the team?

After 18 rounds in 2018 and Naughton back;

Points for - 1185
Points against - 1659
Wins - 5

After 18 rounds in 2019 and Naughton forward;

Points for - 1364
Points against - 1461
Wins - 8
 

cecil

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So? Those two missed games too, yet they usually kept McGovern in defence.

See above, and apply the same to below too.

From 2010-2018, Riewoldt was Richmond's sole good key forward, unless you want to include that spud Vickery. Why didn't Richmond throw Rance up forward to give him some help? I'm sure Rance could've been handy in the forward line knowing how good his marking is.

Who cares about last year? Why aren't they playing those guys up forward this year?


So? All that proves is he's a good mark, not necessarily a high quality forward, or that he's better off in the forward line than defence.


Again with the marks. Makes you wonder why we didn't just play Brian Lake up forward; even he took big contested marks in the few times Rocket tried him there.



Insulting? What insulting? Are you really this precious?

If people like you are going to get on your high horse every time Naughton has a good game up forward, I'm entitled to do the same after games that support the opposite side of the argument.
You keep moving the goal posts. The answer to basically all of that is because they still had a game winning forward. If Naughton is back, then we don't. So he stays forward because he is an already at times game winning forward, and has the potential to do so more consistently. Which is what everyone who wants him forward is saying.
 

fpcookie

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Not precious at all, you're just being a dick.

What's best for the team?

After 18 rounds in 2018 and Naughton back;

Points for - 1185
Points against - 1659
Wins - 5

After 18 rounds in 2019 and Naughton forward;

Points for - 1364
Points against - 1461
Wins - 8
This is the crux of it to me also.

We need one of him at each end, but currently as it stands I believe that the benefit to the team of playing him forward outweighs the benefit to the team if he were playing back. Maybe he would be playing better on an individual level if he were back but I think it would hurt the team overall.

Btw, I think Bev might have swung him back in this game but the injury to Schache meant his hands were tied somewhat; choosing Tim to play up forward and moving Trengove to ruck. This also shows that Bev thinks having two tall targets forward is more important than 2 key backs.
 

dogwatch

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It's also glossed over the positive effect having him forward has on Schache. They've played 9 games together forward, and in 6 of those one of them has had a very good game.
I might have missed something but I make it only 5 out of 9 games together that one or the other has kicked 3 or more goals. It's not bad but nothing outstanding, especially when you consider that in each of the other four of those 9 games they managed only 1 goal between them.

It's impossible to prove either way but my feeling is that the nett result is we'd be many goals better off if we had played him in defence this year. His last 9 games have yielded only 8 goals.

My preference is still to play Naughton as a key defender and keep searching for the natural key forward we have lacked since Chris Grant (if you ignore Barry Hall's late career stint with us).

If Naughton does stay forward I certainly hope he will grow into that 60+ goal a year beast that people talk about by the time he's 22 or 23. I'll have my fingers crossed for him but I'm not 100% convinced yet.

Right now I can't help but think it's costing us a shot at the finals in 2019.
 

footscray1973

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I'm not familar with the early part of Fevola's career. I brought him up because he's an example of a player who consistently scored goals in spite of poor delivery. For all I know he had a different physical development to Naughton.

A more apt comparison to Naughton up forward is of course Michael Hurley. A great mark who played some stellar games up forward in his first year, but never found consistency, even after 5 years of development in that role. Some players just don't have goalscoring instinct, even though their marking ability appears to be majestic.
Regardless of instinct, Fevola had his 2 best goal scoring years in the years Carlton won double-figure games, significant team improvements over the rest of his career there. So, it would seem team playing better leads to better delivery leads to improved returns by the key forward.
Plus Fev in the latter part of his career had Gibbs, Judd, Murphy, Stevens delivering to him, not exactly a low skill midfield.
I get your point, I just disagree.
 

fpcookie

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Naughton up forward gives us something we haven't had since Barry Hall a decade ago, a player that can mark the ball Inside 50 at an elite level. We have not had a player in the top 20 for marks inside 50 since 2011. Naughton is 8th this year which, for someone who has never played forward before, is remarkable.

He also is the best contested mark in the comp at just 19. He has the potential to be both the best key forward and best key back in the game. I, like many others, choose forward. You, like many others, choose back.

Why be so belligerent though?

You are insulting others for boasting in this thread when Naughton plays well forward, yet are doing the exact same when he has a poor match up front...
It's not just i50 marks either... how many times has a taken the grab on the kick down the line to the wing? We haven't had anyone capable of that mark for yonks (boyd gf aside), it has a massive follow on effect to the forwards ahead of him.
 

fpcookie

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I might have missed something but I make it only 5 out of 9 games together that one or the other has kicked 3 or more goals. It's not bad but nothing outstanding, especially when you consider that in each of the other four of those 9 games they managed only 1 goal between them.

It's impossible to prove either way but my feeling is that the nett result is we'd be many goals better off if we had played him in defence this year. His last 9 games have yielded only 8 goals.

My preference is still to play Naughton as a key defender and keep searching for the natural key forward we have lacked since Chris Grant (if you ignore Barry Hall's late career stint with us).

If Naughton does stay forward I certainly hope he will grow into that 60+ goal a year beast that people talk about by the time he's 22 or 23. I'll have my fingers crossed for him but I'm not 100% convinced yet.

Right now I can't help but think it's costing us a shot at the finals in 2019.
this year we have 5 forwards averaging 1.3+ goals per game (6 if you count naughton himself on 1.29). last year we had 2. yes we've introduced lloyd but the biggest change has been what naughton provides structurally.

I don't think our defence is that much worse off this year than last with naughton in the backline.
 

cecil

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I might have missed something but I make it only 5 out of 9 games together that one or the other has kicked 3 or more goals. It's not bad but nothing outstanding, especially when you consider that in each of the other four of those 9 games they managed only 1 goal between them.

It's impossible to prove either way but my feeling is that the nett result is we'd be many goals better off if we had played him in defence this year. His last 9 games have yielded only 8 goals.

My preference is still to play Naughton as a key defender and keep searching for the natural key forward we have lacked since Chris Grant (if you ignore Barry Hall's late career stint with us).

If Naughton does stay forward I certainly hope he will grow into that 60+ goal a year beast that people talk about by the time he's 22 or 23. I'll have my fingers crossed for him but I'm not 100% convinced yet.

Right now I can't help but think it's costing us a shot at the finals in 2019.
There was a game in which Schache only kicked 1, but still contributed a lot. Obviously that may be independent of Naughton also playing forward, but my pov is it's helped having both. It helps that Naughton can go back, and Schache has a decent tank so can get up the ground too.

I get your point of view for sure. My initial point was that Naughtons ability to read the play and intercept wouldn't have changed a whole lot tonight due to the nature of the saints goals early. It's mostly a list management issue, as if Naughton is back then we probably go with Gowers forward. He'd have been worse tonight, as at least Naughton brought most of the high balls to ground, with Dickson getting on the end of a few that way.
 

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