Abortion

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Admiral Byng said:
it works the opposite way too, protesters and picketers will ring around to find out which clinics in their local area support abortion.
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This isn't the US....Do we really have a significant problem with people picketing abortion clinics?
 
Gus Poyet said:
What an outdated view.

Plenty of women oppose abortion too. Plenty.
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Do they?

From the Medical Journal of Australia:

Eighty-seven per cent of respondents indicated that abortion should be lawful in at least some circumstances in the first trimester; 69% indicated this for the second trimester and 48% for the third (Box 1).
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There were no statistically significant differences between the responses...between men and women
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And these summary stats:
  • According to one survey of around 4000 Australians, over 80% believed abortion is a right. In the same survey, over 75% of Australians with religious views supported the right to abortion. Even among evangelical Protestants surveyed, over 50% were pro-abortion. (2003 Australian Survey of Social Attitudes)
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Gus Poyet said:
An anonymous online survey of 1050 "Australians" out of a population of 22 million people isn't any kind of proof of an overwhelming shared opinion of a nation.

Do you know how easy it is to rig online survey figures?
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Fair enough. Except that it wasn't any old only survey:
An online survey of Australian adults was conducted between 28 and 31 July 2008. The target population was defined as all Australian residents aged 18 years or older. Oversampling was used in Victoria so that more statistically accurate results could be gained for Victoria, in light of its pending abortion law reforms. To provide representative national results, the oversample for Victoria was weighted to reflect (in addition to other demographic criteria) the proportion of the Australian population residing in Victoria.
The survey was conducted by a private market research organisation (Crosby Textor, Sydney, NSW) with experience in measuring public opinion on health and medical issues. An online panel of more than 500 000 recruited participants (PermissionCorp, Sydney, NSW) was used as a representative sample frame for this study. Participants on this panel elect to either receive awards points or participate in a prize draw in return for completing a survey. A random sample (stratified by age, sex and location) was invited to participate, provided with a short preamble regarding the subject matter of the survey, and then asked for their consent to participate.
Respondents were asked to confirm their background information, such as age, sex and location, and provided with factual information about the proposed law change in Victoria. They were then asked about their views on abortion. To avoid invalid or prompted answers, respondents were not permitted to revise previous answers once they had proceeded to a new question. The questionnaire was tested before full online launch, and standard quality control procedures were applied.
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Also,
Do you know how easy it is to make a statement like

Plenty of women oppose abortion too. Plenty.
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And not back it up with any statistical evidence?
 
telsor said:
13% of australian women still amounts to almost 1.5 million...I'd call that 'plenty'...or at least a significant subset.
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True. But when deciding political policy in a democracy, 13% public support is clearly not "plenty", which was the implication I do believe.
 
Maggie5 said:
Yes, but most of those that do are probably past child-bearing.
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No, a lot probably have children is the common factor, not their age.

They understand fully what is being destroyed in healthy cases.




Sometime ago I was discussing this with a friend and found the following site that recommends 10 books that a Pro-lifer must have. Wasn't surprised to see that 9 of them were written by men.
http://prolifephilosophy.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/ten-books-every-pro-life-advocate.html

How many here that are pro choice are women?
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Why wouldn't men have a vested interest in the subject?

Who represents the men who have had partners go out and destroy a life they helped create yet lost that opportunity because of someone elses decision?

A man doesn't take resposnsibility for a pregnancy he's a bad man according to society.

A woman doesn't take responsibility for it and she gets off with the it's her body bullshit line.
 
They have a right to protest though. I learnt that from all the other anti-something protests groups who hassle people and businesses.
 
Gus Poyet said:
No, a lot probably have children is the common factor, not their age.

They understand fully what is being destroyed in healthy cases.






Why wouldn't men have a vested interest in the subject? Because they don't carry for 9 months, haven't had mental or physical issues with the pregnancy, haven't been raped and carry the consequence. I can go on.....but hey, you must be a male (sorry can't say man). Enough said.

Who represents the men who have had partners go out and destroy a life they helped create yet lost that opportunity because of someone elses decision?

A man doesn't take resposnsibility for a pregnancy he's a bad man according to society.

A woman doesn't take responsibility for it and she gets off with the it's her body bullshit line.
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Maggie5 said:
Because they don't carry for 9 months, haven't had mental or physical issues with the pregnancy, haven't been raped and carry the consequence. I can go on.....but hey, you must be a male (sorry can't say man). Enough said.
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What a load of feminist bullshit. Like a father doesn't feel as much pain at the loss of a child be it born or unborn. Imagine being the kind of campaigner who spins the "oh you're not a female so you wouldn't understand line".
 
samFFC said:
*Probably*

Any statistical evidence?
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Anecdotal. When you have children and a group of friends with children you are exposed to many varied opinions. The majority of which I've found don't support abortion as some open slather concept to be used as a get out of jail card.

At least I know they are real people providing that information.

Not some faceless online survey.
 
Gus Poyet said:
What a load of feminist bullshit. Like a father doesn't feel as much pain at the loss of a child be it born or unborn. Imagine being the kind of Syd who spins the "oh you're not a female so you wouldn't understand line".
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See where you are coming from, but it is a fact that a man:
  • Doesn't deal directly with the issues of pregnancy (morning sickness and other physical illness)
  • Doesn't deal with the additional physical burden of pregnancy (increased strain on hips and knees, weakened pelvic floor muscles postpartum)
  • Is unlikely to need to take time off from work, though a woman often does in the last stages of pregnancy, and possibly during maternity leave. There is paternity leave, but more women take maternity leave, and for longer periods of time. Affecting employment and earning potential.
  • Has the option of "getting out" of the pregnancy. And we know that happens, even though it is obviously frowned upon by society. But without abortion, a woman would not have that option.
 
Gus Poyet said:
Anecdotal. When you have children and a group of friends with children you are exposed to many varied opinions. The majority of which I've found don't support abortion as some open slather concept to be used as a get out of jail card.

At least I know they are real people providing that information.

Not some faceless online survey.
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So there is no statistical evidence to support your claim, other than anecdotes.

And okay, let's reject the online survey.

Try this, a summary of the Australian Election Survey (AES), achieved by postal polling. What they have found:

Support for abortion (page 4)
  • Under all circumstances: has bounced around, but was 57% in 2007
  • Under limited circumstances has bounced around the 30s, was 33% in 2007
Therefore around 90% of Australians, according to this survey, support abortion.
Some quick breakdown stats:
  • Page 5: Women from 18-44 support it 92% of the time; 45-74 support 92%; slightly lower (90%) in the over 75 age group.
  • Page 6: For each religious group surveyed, support was over 80% (smallest was 82% in Orthodox)
  • Page 7: Liberal voters support 91% (54% under any circumstance), Labor 90% (60% under any circumstance). National voters 87% (but only 42% under any circumstance).
Is this more acceptable evidence?
 
samFFC said:
See where you are coming from, but it is a fact that a man:
  • Doesn't deal directly with the issues of pregnancy (morning sickness and other physical illness)
  • Doesn't deal with the additional physical burden of pregnancy (increased strain on hips and knees, weakened pelvic floor muscles postpartum)
  • Is unlikely to need to take time off from work, though a woman often does in the last stages of pregnancy, and possibly during maternity leave. There is paternity leave, but more women take maternity leave, and for longer periods of time. Affecting employment and earning potential.
  • Has the option of "getting out" of the pregnancy. And we know that happens, even though it is obviously frowned upon by society. But without abortion, a woman would not have that option.
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As someone who has kids and sadly lost a child (stillborn) I can say the above is bollocks.

If you asked my wife she'd tell you I did each pregnancy far tougher than she did. :D
 
Gus Poyet said:
Why wouldn't men have a vested interest in the subject?

Who represents the men who have had partners go out and destroy a life they helped create yet lost that opportunity because of someone elses decision?

A man doesn't take resposnsibility for a pregnancy he's a bad man according to society.

A woman doesn't take responsibility for it and she gets off with the it's her body bullshit line.
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Men should have an interest, and the father should be included in the discussion, but ultimately the decision needs to be made by one person, and that must be the mother.


That said, I have raised the idea before that men should have a 'male abortion right'...where (in the simplest terms) they pay to have no further involvement in the childs life (the child is, in all respects, 'dead' to them), but that's another discussion.
 
samFFC said:
So there is no statistical evidence to support your claim, other than anecdotes.

And okay, let's reject the online survey.

Try this, a summary of the Australian Election Survey (AES), achieved by postal polling. What they have found:

Support for abortion (page 4)
  • Under all circumstances: has bounced around, but was 57% in 2007
  • Under limited circumstances has bounced around the 30s, was 33% in 2007
Therefore around 90% of Australians, according to this survey, support abortion.

Some quick breakdown stats:
  • Page 5: Women from 18-44 support it 92% of the time; 45-74 support 92%; slightly lower (90%) in the over 75 age group.
  • Page 6: For each religious group surveyed, support was over 80% (smallest was 82% in Orthodox)
  • Page 7: Liberal voters support 91% (54% under any circumstance), Labor 90% (60% under any circumstance). National voters 87% (but only 42% under any circumstance).
Is this more acceptable evidence?
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I don't know?

I don't ever recall being asked anything in regards to abortions. What is this Australian Election Survey?
 
Did anyone here watch the news last night? Napthine (Vic Premier) made a statement that he was not seeking to change the abortion law, interfer with a woman's right to choose etc etc. Extraordinary stuff considering most politicians would rather debate limiting their super before touching this issue.

For those outside Vic this issue has suddenly kicked off as MP Geoff Shaw (who was expelled from the Liberals and facing fraud charges) had all charges dropped, essentially now holds the balance of power unencumbered and wants to pursue his agenda. Essentially he has been throwing his weight around since being an independent but is now off the leash.

Scene as an election is due in < a year I reckon Napthine should tell Shaw to go fu^% himself call an election and let him stand on his platform independently and see how far he gets. As Gillard learnt federally you can only bend so far before your own agenda is compromised negatively. She would've been better telling the Greens to go ahead with Abbott instead of signing a formal agreement.
 
telsor said:
Men should have an interest, and the father should be included in the discussion, but ultimately the decision needs to be made by one person, and that must be the mother.
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A very warped attitude we have in place. You can see it filtering all the way through to the family courts. No matter how responsible the man, we still think that an irresponsible womans judgement should be put before it.
 
Run n Spread said:
Scene as an election is due in < a year I reckon Napthine should tell Shaw to go fu^% himself call an election and let him stand on his platform independently and see how far he gets.
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Don't even call an election. Just tell him to get ****ed.

The ALP are not going to stand by Shaw if he moves a no confidence motion on this issue. They'd be crazy to do so.
 
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