Abortion

[Gus Poyet]

I ave no issue with as many privately funded hospitals being built as the private sector can muster and they can run them any way they like....with not a single cent of public money, no land grants or tax breaks.

The Governments need these institutions to exist and function.

The cost to the Governments from public funds if they didnt exist would dwarf any funding they do get but a huge amount.

I'd think a hospital would be close to the most expensive thing a Government could tender to build and run.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Gotta love how passionate Gus is about people... before they're born.

Right.

So if you had a wife and someone kicked her in the guts until it caused her to miscarry you'd not give a * about it cause you know, the foetus/child isn't a person anyway.

That's the sum of your views.

 

[Power Raid]

Right.

So if you had a wife and someone kicked her in the guts until it caused her to miscarry you'd not give a **** about it cause you know, the foetus/child isn't a person anyway.

That's the sum of your views.

clearly a passionate subject for you but that comment is absolutely ridiculous in light of the topic

 

[tandino]

Right.

So if you had a wife and someone kicked her in the guts until it caused her to miscarry you'd not give a **** about it cause you know, the foetus/child isn't a person anyway.

That's the sum of your views.

That's just certifiable.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

It depends on what we are talking about here.

Actually Performing an abortion, one that requires surgery then it's a non issue because a normal doc can't perform said surgery, you have to be trained to do it.

I very much doubt someone who opposes abortion would enter that part of the medical field and it's not something normal GP's are trained for.

So the only thing we are talking about is referrals and or abortion pills.

To me this is no different to providing a script for cough medicine or pain pills.

Many doctors oppose providing scripts for such things based on there own personal beliefs. (my family doc flatout refused to recommend cough medicines and advised against it because A they don't help and B could actually make things worse in some cases)

But here's the thing if you push him he'll write a prescription. Why because his duty of care is to his patients.

Same with a referral for surgery or an abortion pill. I'm sorry your personal beliefs conflict with abortion, but you have a duty of care to your patient.

That's the pregnant woman not her fetus, anyone that refuses to write a prescription for an abortion pill should have to prove there's a medical reason for it (like it might kill your patient in a particular case)

Any doctor refusing to give a referral should have there licence revoked. I'm sorry but your willfully ignoring your duty of care to your patient based on personal beliefs.

Your not fit to practice medicine, imagine if you had a Mormon doctor refusing to blood transfusion?

An abortion is no different your beliefs may be strong maybe completely justified to you, but their your beliefs.

Your beliefs cannot interfere with your duty of care, by refusing to prescribe an abortion pill when safe to do so or give a referral for surgery, your failing in your duty of care.

Just remember carrying a child to term is no easy task forcing a woman to carry can be dangerous.

You must act in the best interest of your patient, the fetus is not your patient the mother is.

 

[Power Raid]

lol, imagine that......... a Mormon in emergency theatre refusing to give a blood transfusion!


that would be an interesting debate in court

 

[tandino]

If a doctor believes that an abortion is contrary to the best interests of the patient, how can they reconcile that opinion with taking actions to bring about such a thing from happening? Doesn't that contradict their duty of care to their patient?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

What a load of feminist bullshit. Like a father doesn't feel as much pain at the loss of a child be it born or unborn. Imagine being the kind of Syd who spins the "oh you're not a female so you wouldn't understand line".

Gus that's not it at all, I don't think you realise the danger you place not just the unborn child in but the mother when she carry's a child.

I'll share something with you when I was 19 my girlfriend at the time had an abortion I never even knew she was pregnant.

To say I was devastated is a massive understatement I couldn't handle anything, long story short I ended up working for a PMC in a warzone because had I stayed at home I would have killed her (I'm not joking I thought about killing her and I have no doubt I would have dove it) to me she killed my kid that's the end of it.

Of course like the song says "I was so much older then" today I realise there's other factors then just my personal feelings involved, it's not black and white.

Reality is I now I understand neither of us were ready to have a child and for her growing up in a staunchly Catholic household having an abortion was far from an easy decision.

When we finally caught up and I was mature enough to talk to her about it she admitted she was so stressed out about having a child she considered suicide because she couldn't deal with being pregnant and didn't think she could live with herself if she had an abortion, she didn't tell me because she was afraid of how I might react (which turns out was spot on)

Of course a bloke feels just as much as the woman, but you can't force her to carry the child the emotional and physical stress on the woman affects the child's development, you can jeopardise her life forcing her to carry.

So no as much as it sucks as much it hurts it must be her decision and hers alone. If your try and force her or pressure her then you risk two lives, I understand your position about the status of an unborn child I do.

But you need take the woman's position more seriously she's carrying the child. if she's not emotionally ready to carry a child to term and deliver it, then it's best for everyone (except the unborn baby) that she has the option to abort. And she must have the final say on the matter as it affects not just her emotional state but her physical wellbeing.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

If a doctor believes that an abortion is contrary to the best interests of the patient, how can they reconcile that opinion with taking actions to bring about such a thing from happening? Doesn't that contradict their duty of care to their patient?

It needs to be on medical grounds, what's medically in the best interest of the patient. If a doctor believes that carrying the child to term is in the best interest of patient medically, then there's nothing to reconcile they've done their job.

If it's not based on medical grounds if you can not prove there's a legitimate medical reason to deny access to an abortion, then you've failed your patient.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Gus that's not it at all, I don't think you realise the danger you place not just the unborn child in but the mother when she carry's a child.

I have 3 children. I know a thing or three about pregnancy. I know my wife would have had 3 more she loved the experience of being pregnant so much.

I also know there are over 7 billion people on the planet.

To dramatize pregnancy to the point of it being a life and death event is over the top. If it were the case we'd be lucky to have a billion people on the planet.

Yes for some it might be a dangerous experience, but for most it's not in that ball park.

 

[Pie eyed]

Why is there a likelihood?

That almost sounds like some femi-nazi myth that a man wouldnt take responsibility for a child nor be able to raise one as a single parent.

You live in the real world not doubt.
Likelihood is possibly the wrong word.
Very strong possibility, statistical probability or even every chance would be more accurate.
Sure a percentage of males in the position to volunteer to raise the offspring of an unplanned pregnancy, which the mother feels she cannot for whatever reason, on their own, without any input from the mother exists, but you have to look at the real life examples a male taking the initiative, firstly suitably steadfastly enunciating their wishes, secondly, physically taking the actions necessary to bring the pregnancy to full term and lastly fulfilling that commitment long term.
I'm not saying it cannot happen, that is not something many of the male parents may wish could happen or that it is bad outcome if it did happen, but the reality is the overwhelming majority of men in this position leave the decision to the mother. A general lack of will on the part of the majority of the fathers in regard to unplanned pregnancy sees the percentage who do take the full responsibility being very low.
You may see that as the result of "femin-nazism" but historically, thousands of years worth, the partner most likely to default on any responsibility regarding any unwanted pregnancy has been the father.

There is no feminist bent in my original post, just simply observation of the reality of how the male partner usually responds.
Drawing on the "femi-nazis" parallel was cheap and disingenuous to the content of my post.
I'm certainly no feminist.

 

[Gus Poyet]

I'm not saying it cannot happen.

Well it can't. The law deprives any man any recourse to try and make it happen.

 

[Pie eyed]

lol, imagine that......... a Mormon in emergency theatre refusing to give a blood transfusion!


that would be an interesting debate in court

Slightly different situation assuming this thread is about elective abortion being an individual moral choice rather than life saving surgery on a potential mother in which a fetus may be aborted....certainly what I have considered the discussion to be about.

 

[tandino]

It needs to be on medical grounds, what's medically in the best interest of the patient. If a doctor believes that carrying the child to term is in the best interest of patient medically, then there's nothing to reconcile they've done their job.

If it's not based on medical grounds if you can not prove there's a legitimate medical reason to deny access to an abortion, then you've failed your patient.

Fair enough.

 

[Pie eyed]

Well it can't. The law deprives any man any recourse to try and make it happen.

Only if it is invoked by the person whose body the pregnancy takes place in.
As I said, how often does a man in the position take the initiative and make his feelings known? Take the issue to court?
Very infrequently.
I still maintain there is a lack of will sufficient to even see this as a widely discussed issue amongst men.

Can you show me an example?
I'm honestly asking not being a smart-arse.
I haven't seen or heard of this ground swell of unrest amongst the potentially paternal partners in unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I have 3 children. I know a thing or three about pregnancy. I know my wife would have had 3 more she loved the experience of being pregnant so much.

I also know there are over 7 billion people on the planet.

To dramatize pregnancy to the point of it being a life and death event is over the top. If it were the case we'd be lucky to have a billion people on the planet.

Yes for some it might be a dangerous experience, but for most it's not in that ball park.

You do realise the key difference is your wife wanted to have the kids?

If you don't think carrying a child you don't want for 10 months carry's significant emotional and physical risks your, detached from the issue. Most research suggests one of the biggest risk factor during pregnancy is stress.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Only if it is invoked by the person whose body the pregnancy takes place in.
As I said, how often does a man in the position take the initiative and make his feelings known? Take the issue to court?
Very infrequently.
I still maintain there is a lack of will sufficient to even see this as a widely discussed issue amongst men.

Can you show me an example?
I'm honestly asking not being a smart-arse.
I haven't seen or heard of this ground swell of unrest amongst the potentially paternal partners in unwanted pregnancies.

Given the examples in this thread from other men, the abortions would appear to happen before they even know.

Which would indicate that's most likely the most common scenario and one which means they have no recourse or say in the matter.

 

[Gus Poyet]

You do realise the key difference is your wife wanted to have the kids?

No, the difference is she is one of those women who only sees one option in these situations. I have no doubt if she was a single woman and she got knocked up she'd not consider terminating another life just because she stuffed up. No doubt at all.

 

[Pie eyed]

Given the examples in this thread from other men, the abortions would appear to happen before they even know.

Which would indicate that's most likely the most common scenario and one which means they have no recourse or say in the matter.

Gus...you know what I'm getting at.
My original post on the subject addressed the reality that the mother in unplanned pregnancy is one who has to physically carry and deliver the child and in the vast majority of cases is the one who is left to raise the child alone.
This hoard of prospective fathers you claim are lined up, being summarily denied their right to fatherhood by some draconian law does not exist, no matter how noble a concept you may see it as, the numbers are not there to support your argument.
Nor are the numbers there to show that there are even enough potential dad's out there to make a fuss about any laws which give precedence to the potential mother in the decision.

 

[yibbida]

Right.

So if you had a wife and someone kicked her in the guts until it caused her to miscarry you'd not give a **** about it cause you know, the foetus/child isn't a person anyway.

That's the sum of your views.

Stealing Rodney Rude material now!

 

[Power Raid]

Slightly different situation assuming this thread is about elective abortion being an individual moral choice rather than life saving surgery on a potential mother in which a fetus may be aborted....certainly what I have considered the discussion to be about.

no, it is about doctors following a code of professionalism over personal views

 

[MrCharisma]

Right.

So if you had a wife and someone kicked her in the guts until it caused her to miscarry you'd not give a **** about it cause you know, the foetus/child isn't a person anyway.

That's the sum of your views.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post.

I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of conservative ''libertarian' types, like yourself, who champion individual freedom and small government, while pushing morality on issues like abortion and gay marriage. It's simply your subjective idea of freedom you want people to live by.

Whether or not a foetus is a human being is subjective and contestable.

Your view that someone should have an equal say over what another person does with their body, even in a court of law, is a classic example of said hypocrisy. I agree that in an equal and healthy relationship, a man's opinion should be equal to a woman's in these matters. But if the woman you stuck your penis in thinks otherwise, then too bad! It's your fault, and your fault only that you impregnated an undesirable and unreasonable person. Having the government force this person by law to do something with their body they don't want to doesn't sound very libertarian to me.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

No, the difference is she is one of those women who only sees one option in these situations. I have no doubt if she was a single woman and she got knocked up she'd not consider terminating another life just because she stuffed up. No doubt at all.

First you said your wife enjoyed being pregnant and wanted to have more kids, now your saying she only had the kids because she only see's one option. while at the same time suggesting if she was single she wouldn't hold the same views.

I'm confused did your wife want to have all of your children or not?

 

[Slax]

I have 3 children. I know a thing or three about pregnancy. I know my wife would have had 3 more she loved the experience of being pregnant so much.

I also know there are over 7 billion people on the planet.

To dramatize pregnancy to the point of it being a life and death event is over the top. If it were the case we'd be lucky to have a billion people on the planet.

Yes for some it might be a dangerous experience, but for most it's not in that ball park.

That is your view on pregnancy, but not everyone shares that view, for many pregnancy is not a blessed state it is a burden that they don't wish to carry. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion that it is a blessing you can't assume that the rest of the population has the same view.

I recently found myself in a position where i was discussing abortion with some staunch anti-abortionists, the question I asked and they all refused to answer wasone simple question:
Who will pay for the pregnant women to carry to full term?
Are you will to put your hand in your pocket to pay for the medical cosnultations required?
Are you willing to cover the loss of earning that these women will incur?
Are you willing to go and do the domestic work for these women in that later stages of the pregnancies because they can't?
Are you willing to pay for the conselling for the women after the birth of a child they don't want?
Are you willing to be a foster parent to the abandoned child?
Are you willing to support these women through post-natal depression?
Are you willing to pay for their legal costs for the harm they inflict on a child they didn't want?
Are you willing to go to prison to serve the time in jail becuase your forced your opinion on some to have a child and failed to understand the full consequences?

I doubted it.

Abortion is not simply about the rights of the child, it is about the rights of the pregnant woman to decide if she is able to be a mother, to financially and emotionally support that child. Too often, self righteous twats ignore this and think it is purely about the feteous. it's more than that and you need to step back and look at the full picture and accept that some people don't want children and that pregnancies sometimes happen despite trying to take all the neccessary precautions

 

[Gus Poyet]

Abortion is not simply about the rights of the child, it is about the rights of the pregnant woman to decide if she is able to be a mother, to financially and emotionally support that child.

Just as it should be a doctors right to refuse to deal with morons like a lot of these women are.