Abortion

[Chief]

Indeed you would.

So perhaps killing is justified to save your life.

Just don't lie to yourself, just don't make your hard choice so much more easy by pretending you are not killing.

You are killing, a life. A life in you.
blah blah

It's been said before (what in this thread hasn't?):

If God made humans, he made them so that 50% or so of all pregnancies abort spontaneously. Therefore God is the biggest provider of abortion services you could ever know.

By your standards that makes God a mass-murderer. Simple fact.

However we are very, very lucky we aren't subject to your standards.

 

[skipper kelly]

What confuses me most is that

right wing = bad, selfish people.
left wing = good, caring sharing people.

That the left wing seem to be tied to pro abortion seem at odds to the above.

Anyway it should be legalised so everyone has a choice because choice is the most important thing in this world. Actually when you think about it why do we need laws at all. Laws take away choice. Survival of the strongest seems logical, doesnt it? No, maybe we need to protect the weak.

 

[fairdinkum]

What confuses me most is that

right wing = bad, selfish people.
left wing = good, caring sharing people.

That the left wing seem to be tied to pro abortion seem at odds to the above.

Anyway it should be legalised so everyone has a choice because choice is the most important thing in this world. Actually when you think about it why do we need laws at all. Laws take away choice. Survival of the strongest seems logical, doesnt it? No, maybe we need to protect the weak.

You are religious, yes?

 

[Hooley McBoob]

I am pro-choice, I believe that a woman should have the choice and that our bodies are not just breeding farms.

 

[skilts]

No, maybe we need to protect the weak.

This pre-supposes an 'isness' of the unborn, which is surely the main point of contention in this debate? It could equally be argued that the unborn have no 'being' because they have never 'been'. Their 'isness' is not, nor has it ever been, and if aborted, they are not even 'potential beings'. To be a being one has to have been.

Weakness doesn't come into it. Only beings (and certain plants) suffer this malady.

 

[skipper kelly]

This pre-supposes an 'isness' of the unborn, which is surely the main point of contention in this debate? It could equally be argued that the unborn have no 'being' because they have never 'been'. Their 'isness' is not, nor has it ever been, and if aborted, they are not even 'potential beings'. To be a being one has to have been.

Weakness doesn't come into it. Only beings (and certain plants) suffer this malady.

Who knows skilts. Certainly no one posting on this forum.

Edit. except Richo83.

 

[Richo83]

What confuses me most is that

right wing = bad, selfish people.
left wing = good, caring sharing people.

That the left wing seem to be tied to pro abortion seem at odds to the above.

Anyway it should be legalised so everyone has a choice because choice is the most important thing in this world. Actually when you think about it why do we need laws at all. Laws take away choice. Survival of the strongest seems logical, doesnt it? No, maybe we need to protect the weak.

Who is there to protect? The mother? Abortion does that. No problem really.

 

[skipper kelly]

Who is there to protect? The mother? Abortion does that. No problem really.

Seems you know everything.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Seems you know everything.

You're the one advocating backyard abortions.

There's a reason you conservatives eventually had to legalise abortion.

Something to do with too many young women dying because the state wasn't allowing them to terminate the zygote in a hospital.

 

[Richo83]

You're the one advocating backyard abortions.

There's a reason you conservatives eventually had to legalise abortion.

Something to do with too many young women dying because the state wasn't allowing them to terminate the zygote in a hospital.

Yep. Statistics show that banning abortion doesn't reduce it, it only makes it more dangerous.

 

[JW Frogen]

If God made humans, he made them so that 50% or so of all pregnancies abort spontaneously. Therefore God is the biggest provider of abortion services you could ever know.

By your standards that makes God a mass-murderer. Simple fact.

.

Everything that lives dies. So yes, God is a mass murderor, and a mass life giver.

Still concerning abortion, God or no God, some life dies from natural causes and other life is killed.

It may have been just to kill that life, but killing it what it is.

Claiming it is not life so that you can kill it without any emotional consequence is a greater moral crime than the necessity of killing becuase you had to kill.

This fetus shell game is the act of a moral coward.

God or no God.

 

[Richo83]

How is a fetus a person? You can bleat about how its cowardice but simple fact is if I abort a 5 week old fetus, it aint murder. You can repeat your rhetoric about how it is, but I don't care. Aborting a zygote aint murder.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Youth crime flourishes in places where abortion is illegal or hard to get.

If the state wants to decide that people cannot terminate a pregnancy the state should look after the children.

Allowing abortion is better for society than dictating what people can and cannot do with their own body. Around 50% of all pregnancies are terminated spontaneously anyway. If you were really concerned about the issue you'd campaign for research into stopping this happening rather than picking on a few unfortunate people.

Logically of course the fact that many pregnancies terminate naturally is no more a justification for legalised abortion than is the fact that many people die naturaly an argument for legalised homicide.

 

[gaelictiogar]

You're the one advocating backyard abortions.

There's a reason you conservatives eventually had to legalise abortion.

Something to do with too many young women dying because the state wasn't allowing them to terminate the zygote in a hospital.

Linguistically the use of latinate and obscure language 9 zygote) to effect an emotional distancing from the essential humanity of the unborn is a clear strategem which is very effective.

This stragegy is time honoured. Words lile quadroon, mulatto and indeer negro were quasi scientific terms robbing blacks of their humanity and emotionally aiding those doing so. Referring to 'zygotes' is a similar game.

 

[skipper kelly]

You're the one advocating backyard abortions.

Did I. Do you have a quote or was this just random. Here is what I said.

Anyway it should be legalised so everyone has a choice because choice is the most important thing in this world. Actually when you think about it why do we need laws at all. Laws take away choice. Survival of the strongest seems logical, doesnt it? No, maybe we need to protect the weak.

If you notice I said it should be legalised so everyone has a choice. It led me further to think that maybe laws are very restrictive and do take away choice and a society of survival of the strongest doesnt sound illogical. But then we need laws to protect certain elements of society.

What I find very disturbing about the abortion debate is those from both sides who claim to 'know' whether or not that thing inside the woman is a living thing or not. Less disturbing is your use of the word conservative, but still disturbing.

My original post was very much worded exactly how I wanted it and I stand by its contents. Only one person, skilts, has actually adressed its contents after quoting it.

 

[evo]

Yep. Statistics show that banning abortion doesn't reduce it, it only makes it more dangerous.

That seems to me a good enough argument in itself.Rather like the drug debate(or lack of it, sadly) in that regard.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Skip what you must understand is that for the left abortion is not about "Life" but rather "Sex". They are in truth unconcerned by the argument on when life begins or the nature of the foetus and are pro abortion in order to decouple the sexual act from its natural consequences ie childbirth.

The "Life" question is irrelevnat to them since sexual freedom is the nearest thing to a dogma they hold if we exclude their profond belief in their right to expropriate money from the productive to spend on their social engineering programmes.

As an aside I too find noteworthy the reality informing your comment that it is curious that in this area the usual prating about "community" and "interconnectedness" etc with which they justify their tax grabs gets ditched in favour of the language of the right when they have a freedom they want to defend.

 

[fairdinkum]

Skip what you must understand is that for the left abortion is not about "Life" but rather "Sex". They are in truth unconcerned by the argument on when life begins or the nature of the foetus and are pro abortion in order to decouple the sexual act from its natural consequences ie childbirth.

The "Life" question is irrelevnat to them since sexual freedom is the nearest thing to a dogma they hold if we exclude their profond belief in their right to expropriate money from the productive to spend on their social engineering programmes.

I haven't been to a church mass, but I'm willing to bet that that sort of spiel is more or less what the bloke up the front would be churning out. Sounds powerful and emotive, but lacks any real substance in terms of forwarding a logical argument against that to which it is opposed.

 

[skilts]

Skip what you must understand is that for the left abortion is not about "Life" but rather "Sex". They are in truth unconcerned by the argument on when life begins or the nature of the foetus and are pro abortion in order to decouple the sexual act from its natural consequences ie childbirth.

The "Life" question is irrelevnat to them since sexual freedom is the nearest thing to a dogma they hold if we exclude their profond belief in their right to expropriate money from the productive to spend on their social engineering programmes.

As an aside I too find noteworthy the reality informing your comment that it is curious that in this area the usual prating about "community" and "interconnectedness" etc with which they justify their tax grabs gets ditched in favour of the language of the right when they have a freedom they want to defend.

Is this as opposed to the take away abortion? Are you saying the so-called right only fornicate to procreate? Given the lack of imagination they and anybody else displays when they use such artificial and shallow delineations, you're probably correct (not right though).

 

[gaelictiogar]

I haven't been to a church mass, but I'm willing to bet that that sort of spiel is more or less what the bloke up the front would be churning out. Sounds powerful and emotive, but lacks any real substance in terms of forwarding a logical argument against that to which it is opposed.

You never go to church but you know what is said there. clairvoyant? Gifted with superb long range hearing? or just engaging in assumption? I'm willing to bet he latter.

The argument sounds powerful because it is. Freeing people to engage in consequence free sex with abortion as a fall back in case contraception is unused or fails is the reason the issue has such resonance on the left. Deny it if you and you may well be dishonest enough to do so, will but you know I'm right.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

You never go to church but you know what is said there. clairvoyant? Gifted with superb long range hearing? or just engaging in assumption? I'm willing to bet he latter.

The argument sounds powerful because it is. Freeing people to engage in consequence free sex with abortion as a fall back in case contraception is unused or fails is the reason the issue has such resonance on the left. Deny it if you and you may well be dishonest enough to do so, will but you know I'm right.

You're wrong. The majority of people on both the left and right side of the fence are pro-abortion, because they don't want young women dying in backyard operations or taking their own lives because they can't handle the responsiblity.

Only delusional bible-bashers are against abortion altogether. Deny it all you want, but I highly doubt anyone in this thread is anti-abortion and also not religious.

I notice you claim yourself as Gaelic, and I'm assuming its Irish rather than French. I'm not surprised by your closed-mindedness, Ireland is the racism and bigotry capital of the world:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68836

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Linguistically the use of latinate and obscure language 9 zygote) to effect an emotional distancing from the essential humanity of the unborn is a clear strategem which is very effective.

This stragegy is time honoured. Words lile quadroon, mulatto and indeer negro were quasi scientific terms robbing blacks of their humanity and emotionally aiding those doing so. Referring to 'zygotes' is a similar game.

Call it a human if you want, I just used zygote because that's what it is. I'm not in denial about what is being killed. And it is killing, as Frogen points out. Late term abortion is quite clearly wrong, because the baby can live on its own outside the womb. Killing some cells 10 weeks into a pregnancy is just killing an organism that could one day be a human being if the pregnancy continues.

It's just that you're killing some cells that could one day live on their own. I don't really care when I clean my toilet seat either, in spite of how many bacteria I might be killing.

There are too many people as is, and I say we should be protecting the ones we have, rather than worrying about the ones we don't.

 

[fairdinkum]

You never go to church but you know what is said there. clairvoyant? Gifted with superb long range hearing? or just engaging in assumption? I'm willing to bet he latter.

As if I needed confirmation of your intellectual failings, here it is.
Re-read my post. Then think hard.

The argument sounds powerful because it is. Freeing people to engage in consequence free sex with abortion as a fall back in case contraception is unused or fails is the reason the issue has such resonance on the left. Deny it if you and you may well be dishonest enough to do so, will but you know I'm right.

What are you right about?
That sex without the aim of procreation is 'bad'?
That women only undergo abortions as 'backup' contraception?

Because these are your beliefs, are they not?

 

[Karl Pilkington]

My original post was very much worded exactly how I wanted it and I stand by its contents. Only one person, skilts, has actually adressed its contents after quoting it.

Oh, I thought you were being sarcastic in your post. Now I just think you were being a simpleton.

 

[skipper kelly]

Oh, I thought you were being sarcastic in your post. Now I just think you were being a simpleton.

that the way. Dont bother about adressing any of the points just resort to name calling.

It seems you are more concerned with your position on the issue rather than the issue. Keep up the good work.