Academy Watch

[Miller1971]

The first paragraph kind of answers the question coming out of the second: what more could be done? The Lions play these kids in their VFL side. Seems the age-old problem of Qld footy - out of sight out of mind.

they don't though.

Suns played as many as 10 kids aged 16-17 in their VFL team this year.

The Lions gave games to only 3 x 18 year olds.

Annable for example, is better than all those Suns kids - and he didn't get a VFL opportunity, so its not about quality. (though the Lions will definitely draft him anyway, so it won't matter for him)

 

[The Flying Belgian]

they don't though.

Suns played as many as 10 kids aged 16-17 in their VFL team this year.

The Lions gave games to only 3 x 18 year olds.

Annable for example, is better than all those Suns kids - and he didn't get a VFL opportunity, so its not about quality. (though the Lions will definitely draft him anyway, so it won't matter for him)

Is playing kids that young good for them at that level? Seems a little young.

How many overagers were the Lions playing? Isn't one of the arguments against the academy that they abandon the kids once past draft age?

 

[Bob Neil]

Right now, the Lions don't really need it FOR THE LIONS.

However, the mandate of the academy is more than just producing draft picks for the Lions to get priority access, its to improve the standard of the local competition, and also to get more kids into the AFL system, whether playing at the Lions or not.

Samson Ryan Noah Cumberland, Oskar Baker, Will Martyn and a few others overlooked by the Lions have made their way into the system, but while the Lions are so strong right now, its a hard list to get onto and not much turnover either.

I question whether they are doing their bit to push the best QLD kids into the system elsewhere, and I wouldn't blame them if they weren't - its a competitive environment and why would they want competing clubs to get better players?

However, I reckon this year there will be several kids undrafted out of Lions academy, and possibly next year also - and all of them are good enough in my view - but they haven't had enough exposure, so if the Lions don't want them, they will be left at the altar. They were a very good u18 side this year, and out of the actual playing team, Gallop looks like he might be only one picked up.

I think you make a great point in that it is structurally harder for a kid in Qld to get into the AFL system than an equivalently-talented one in Victoria simply due to lack of exposure / lack of access. All 18 teams presumably would have on the ground recruiters in Victoria scouring that market for talent and it only takes one club to see draftable attributes in you to have a shot. Whereas in Qld you've got one shot - if your 'home' academy (Lions or Suns) don't see you as a genuine prospect (for whatever reason) then you're basically done. It's probably another reason why the Marshalls, Ashcrofts (to a lesser extent) and others of the world are also taking the Victorian private school route to double down (or even exponentially increase) their odds of being seen by the right people.

Furthermore, as you point out for competitive reasons it's hard to blame the Lions for not focusing on how to improve/increase the overall number of QLDers in the system as they've got no incentive (indeed possibly a disincentive) to do so. It does make me wonder whether an AFL-run system for all academies (including the spurious 'Next Gen' academies run by clubs in the traditional footy states) wouldn't be a better and fairer system for both the player-athletes and the clubs.

 

[Miller1971]

they abandon the other 50, they keep the topliners around.

eg. this year they have 60-70 kids in the Level 3 program who have commenced training already, and they will train right through until late March together, some missing family holidays, some possibly skipping schoolies this week, and none of them attending their club training or playing for their schools. These training sessions will spread from Coorparoo, to Springfield, to Maroochydore, to Zillmere to Nudgee College and probably a few other places in between. The coaches will know what their best 25 looks like by mid Jan, but they will keep the kids coming for 2 more months just to really break them!

then in late march or early april, they will cut ~40 of them, have 3 minute exit interviews and then many of them will never hear from the academy again in their footy life.

I would argue 16 is too young for sure for the VFL (Lombard obviously an exception, and Annable and Uwland exceptions this year) but more just pointing out the difference. I guess the Lions also have a bunch of 22-26 year olds (invariably with some sort of family connection) like Jamison Shea, Euan McPherson, Tahj Abberley, Harry Arnold, Kyle Dunkley

48

Kyle Dunkley

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.6

2star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.8

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.6

3star

No current season stats available

D

9.6

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.8

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.6

3star

, Lochie Rayner and so on, which is what keeps the overage and under age academy kids out of the VFL

 

[Miller1971]

Whereas in Qld you've got one shot - if your 'home' academy (Lions or Suns) don't see you as a genuine prospect (for whatever reason) then you're basically done.

Could be cause they don't rate you, but can also be (like the current case) that their list is incredibly strong, in the middle of a potential dynasty and not much incentive to take a punt on an 18 year old local.

The examples of Ryan, Martyn and Cumberland are also all from years when QLD was one of the only states playing footy, so there were more eyeballs watching them. Oskar Baker is probably the only genuine example from the last 10 years.

Saxon crozier is one that really should have got on an AFL list, Lions didn't quite find room for him and now at ~20 odd he doesn't even play footy.

 

[briztoon]

Is playing kids that young good for them at that level? Seems a little young.

How many overagers were the Lions playing? Isn't one of the arguments against the academy that they abandon the kids once past draft age?

What’s the difference between playing QAFL seniors or VFL?

All the top academy kids play QAFL seniors at 16/17.

Same thing happens in the SANFL, all the best kids are playing SANFL by 16/17.

 

[M Malice]

eg. this year they have 60-70 kids in the Level 3 program who have commenced training already, and they will train right through until late March together, some missing family holidays, some possibly skipping schoolies this week, and none of them attending their club training or playing for their schools. These training sessions will spread from Coorparoo, to Springfield, to Maroochydore, to Zillmere to Nudgee College and probably a few other places in between. The coaches will know what their best 25 looks like by mid Jan, but they will keep the kids coming for 2 more months just to really break them!

then in late march or early april, they will cut ~40 of them, have 3 minute exit interviews and then many of them will never hear from the academy again in their footy life.

I would argue 16 is too young for sure for the VFL (Lombard obviously an exception, and Annable and Uwland exceptions this year) but more just pointing out the difference. I guess the Lions also have a bunch of 22-26 year olds (invariably with some sort of family connection) like Jamison Shea, Euan McPherson, Tahj Abberley, Harry Arnold, Kyle Dunkley, Lochie Rayner and so on, which is what keeps the overage and under age academy kids out of the VFL

The bolded is an extremely damning accusation on the Lions academy system and staff.... what do you mean by break them? Physically and/or mentally?

 

[Miller1971]

What’s the difference between playing QAFL seniors or VFL?

All the top academy kids play QAFL seniors at 16/17.

Same thing happens in the SANFL, all the best kids are playing SANFL by 16/17.

Actually, many of them aren't until the last few years.

Plus the SANFL is a vastly superior competition to the QAFL, and probably stronger than VFL as well.

Only the absolute best kids like Sharp are playing SANFL senior footy, doubt there are any others currently.

Aish, Gibbs, Cooney etc were exceptions, not the norm.

The bolded is an extremely damning accusation on the Lions academy system and staff.... what do you mean by break them? Physically and/or mentally?

Probably a bit of mayo on that. I just mean they keep them coming for a few months, even when they are no chance of making the final cut. They probably think they are doing them a favour, I would argue otherwise.

It can really break their confidence, and their enjoyment of footy.

 

[briztoon]

Actually, many of them aren't until the last few years.

Plus the SANFL is a vastly superior competition to the QAFL, and probably stronger than VFL as well.

Only the absolute best kids like Sharp are playing SANFL senior footy, doubt there are any others currently.

Aish, Gibbs, Cooney etc were exceptions, not the norm.



Probably a bit of mayo on that. I just mean they keep them coming for a few months, even when they are no chance of making the final cut. They probably think they are doing them a favour, I would argue otherwise.

It can really break their confidence, and their enjoyment of footy.

Rankine, Rozee and Lukosius were all playing seniors at 17 (their bottom age year).

I know Sid Draper and Tyler Welsh played SANFL seniors this year.

There’s probably more that I haven’t heard of.

 

[briztoon]

Just my view, the academy really should be run as a full time program for the Level 3 kids.

And by that I mean as a full season program as part of the CTL.

My belief is a big part of the issues stem from the boys split their season between academy games and their QAFL team.

This appears to be causing angst everywhere.

 

[Bob Neil]

Just my view, the academy really should be run as a full time program for the Level 3 kids.

And by that I mean as a full season program as part of the CTL.

My belief is a big part of the issues stem from the boys split their season between academy games and their QAFL team.

This appears to be causing angst everywhere.

Which if combined with an increase in the draft age by a year would mean the kids aren't conflicted in terms of priorities between footy and school and could really focus on their football for that draft year...given the numbers are overwhelmingly against any single kid making it to the AFL/professional level then severely restricting their capacity to do their best at secondary school is not really in the best long-term interests of the majority of the kids going through this pathway process (even if they themselves don't see it that way).

 

[briztoon]

Which if combined with an increase in the draft age by a year would mean the kids aren't conflicted in terms of priorities between footy and school and could really focus on their football for that draft year...given the numbers are overwhelmingly against any single kid making it to the AFL/professional level then severely restricting their capacity to do their best at secondary school is not really in the best long-term interests of the majority of the kids going through this pathway process (even if they themselves don't see it that way).

Draft age is still 18.

Kids born January to June are finished school and can concentrate on the draft.

Kids born July to December are still at school and juggling both.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Probably a bit of mayo on that. I just mean they keep them coming for a few months, even when they are no chance of making the final cut. They probably think they are doing them a favour, I would argue otherwise.

It can really break their confidence, and their enjoyment of footy.

This whole thing about the Academy "breaking" players seems way overcooked. I played school footy for a decent school in the early 90s and the best 3 players who were all state or district reps and played club footy as well. All finished up playing by the age of 20.

More recently I know of 2 young blokes who were not in the Academy (although would not have been out of place), but played QAFL seniors semi-regularly by the time they were 18. Both have left the game to focus on studies and because they got jack of the club scene.

The Academy has it's faults no doubt and they could probably do more, but it's a convenient scapegoat for some I feel. Burnout can occur for a variety of reasons, of which the Academy is but one.

 

[Miller1971]

Draft age is still 18.

Kids born January to June are finished school and can concentrate on the draft.

Kids born July to December are still at school and juggling both.

Yes, I certainly think your draft year should be your first year out of high school.

for some its their final year of high school and it makes a big difference to how you are able to committ to your footy.

 

[Miller1971]

yes, my comment was there are exceptions.

Nearly everyone named here that were playing senior WAFL/SANFL at 16-17 were single figure draft picks that went on to 200 game careers.

All I'm saying is that it isn't the 'norm'.

 

[dlanod]

yes, my comment was there are exceptions.

Nearly everyone named here that were playing senior WAFL/SANFL at 16-17 were single figure draft picks that went on to 200 game careers.

All I'm saying is that it isn't the 'norm'.

Why don't Queensland clubs just produce top 10 draft picks that play 200+ AFL games then? Surely that's a no brainer?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It does make me wonder whether an AFL-run system for all academies (including the spurious 'Next Gen' academies run by clubs in the traditional footy states) wouldn't be a better and fairer system for both the player-athletes and the clubs.

Of course it would. It makes all the sense in the world. The AFL are just too lazy and feckless to handle it themselves. If that's going to be the case, then I'm happy for northern clubs to profit from it.

 

[M Malice]

Furthermore, as you point out for competitive reasons it's hard to blame the Lions for not focusing on how to improve/increase the overall number of QLDers in the system as they've got no incentive (indeed possibly a disincentive) to do so. It does make me wonder whether an AFL-run system for all academies (including the spurious 'Next Gen' academies run by clubs in the traditional footy states) wouldn't be a better and fairer system for both the player-athletes and the clubs.

Could not agree more, I've been on that bandwagon for ages as well.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Which if combined with an increase in the draft age by a year would mean the kids aren't conflicted in terms of priorities between footy and school and could really focus on their football for that draft year...given the numbers are overwhelmingly against any single kid making it to the AFL/professional level then severely restricting their capacity to do their best at secondary school is not really in the best long-term interests of the majority of the kids going through this pathway process (even if they themselves don't see it that way).

There are two issues with making that happen.

Firstly, it'll devalue one entire draft by making all the top age kids wait another year. They'd probably have to cancel the draft in that year and make the order of the next one based on two seasons rather than one.

Secondly, you could argue the very best prospects ought to go straight into the league after finishing school. What purpose would it serve having Harley Reid spend another year out of the league when he was don't arguing grown men left and right in his rookie year?

The compromise solution I've heard bandied about would be to allow kids who finished Year 12 that year to be drafted in the first round, but not in any subsequent picks. Then the best prospects are getting into the league early on, and there's plenty of scope to get drafted as an overager too in the rest of the draft. I don't know if that will make kids focus on their studies more, but at least it might be less pressure.

 

[Miller1971]

Why don't Queensland clubs just produce top 10 draft picks that play 200+ AFL games then? Surely that's a no brainer?

Jaspa Fletcher played seniors at 16, Jed Walter, Zeke Uwland, Dan Annable, Leo Lombard, Dylan Patterson all the same. Walter I think at 15 actually.

So they just need to get the 200 game bit next!

 

[Bob Neil]

Secondly, you could argue the very best prospects ought to go straight into the league after finishing school. What purpose would it serve having Harley Reid spend another year out of the league when he was don't arguing grown men left and right in his rookie year?

I acknowledge that pushing the draft age back by a year would penalize those exceptional few who are ready for the league straight out of school. However for the majority of draftees who make little impact (and many don’t even play) in year one there’s no downside but for the majority of kids at an elite level but who don’t get drafted it’s a big upside as they can focus on their schooling without sacrificing their footy dream.

Moreover with careers extending longer into their 30s the Reids and Daicoses of the world still have 15+ year careers ahead of them to maximise their feats and earnings.

I think the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and pushing back by a year would be a net benefit.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I acknowledge that pushing the draft age back by a year would penalize those exceptional few who are ready for the league straight out of school. However for the majority of draftees who make little impact (and many don’t even play) in year one there’s no downside but for the majority of kids at an elite level but who don’t get drafted it’s a big upside as they can focus on their schooling without sacrificing their footy dream.

Moreover with careers extending longer into their 30s the Reids and Daicoses of the world still have 15+ year careers ahead of them to maximise their feats and earnings.

I think the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and pushing back by a year would be a net benefit.

What's your view on the compromise idea, first round only for school leavers and the rest is 19 and older?

 

[Bob Neil]

What's your view on the compromise idea, first round only for school leavers and the rest is 19 and older?

I like the creativity but the problem I see is that you only know who is first round in hindsight and meanwhile all of the kids have spent their final year at school striving for the draft which compromises their education.

 

[Miller1971]

I guess the simple answer would be you need to have completed school to be draft eligible?

 

[Nathan Barley]

There are two issues with making that happen.

Firstly, it'll devalue one entire draft by making all the top age kids wait another year. They'd probably have to cancel the draft in that year and make the order of the next one based on two seasons rather than one.

Secondly, you could argue the very best prospects ought to go straight into the league after finishing school. What purpose would it serve having Harley Reid spend another year out of the league when he was don't arguing grown men left and right in his rookie year?

The compromise solution I've heard bandied about would be to allow kids who finished Year 12 that year to be drafted in the first round, but not in any subsequent picks. Then the best prospects are getting into the league early on, and there's plenty of scope to get drafted as an overager too in the rest of the draft. I don't know if that will make kids focus on their studies more, but at least it might be less pressure.

Maybe Harley Reid would do better at school or learn a trade, something to fall back on post footy which could come quickly with injuries

Might also be a more well rounded person coming into the AFL and be able to handle it better