Society/Culture Adam Goodes, Bachar Houli, and the Inclusivness of Australians

[Hawk_francais]

If I was at an event and someone queried why one cake was being eaten while another next to it was being shunned, then yes, saying something like “that cake is not so sweet” would be a pretty normal response. If that provoked a bystander to accuse me of criticising the chef and telling him how he should bake his cake, I would think that bystander a very strange bod. Not my fault people generally like their cake to be sweet.

I'm really happy that you embraced my analogy.

But, no. You can't say "Adam Goodes lacks diplomacy" and then later declare that you intended it to be a neutral appraisal of the concept of diplomacy. You were criticising Goodes, it's time to admit that, and also question why you don't choose criticise those who racially abuse him?

Look around this thread, your company ain't pretty.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Adam goodes was not getting abused in the same way Nicky widmar was weekly from multiple members of the crowd who didn't give a **** about their behaviour and condoned it.

Completely different situations

When you say 'completely different situations', I can't help feeling that you're full of it.

Nicky Winmar and Adam Goodes are both indigenous AFL players who were racially abused by fans. I ask you to tell me one meaningful way in which the situations are different.

 

[TimmeT]

When you say 'completely different situations', I can't help feeling that you're full of it.

Nicky Winmar and Adam Goodes are both indigenous AFL players who were racially abused by fans. I ask you to tell me one meaningful way in which the situations are different.

Read what I wrote above. I never denied both players were racially abused. What I don't agree with is the claim goodes was racially abused to the same extent that winmar was or in the same manner.

Goodes wasn't playing in an era where spectators were regularly in the face of indigenous players calling them names like ape and monkey throughout the match week in, week out. Furthermore goodes didn't play in an era where such behaviour was deemed acceptable and mimicked by the crowd. In the early 90s people would freely join in, laugh and say nothing if an indigenous player was called names like a monkey or boong. In goodes time it gets rightly called out and people have been dealt with appropriately (see the Lance franklin abuse example)

Some situations goodes complained about as being racist simply weren't. The war dance goal celebration is a good example of this. Goodes got booed because he incited the crowd and the crowd gave him the good old flog treatment in the exact same way Carlton fans abused tiprat Milne after he gave their cheer squad s**t and Clayton oliver got abused for his bust up with the supporter.

So no this issue of racial abuse towards goodes was never the same as the racial abuse towards winmar. Racial abuse is unacceptable. However unlike the winmar s**t, half the crap that goodes and especially the PC supporters were whinging about as being racist wasn't and was due to goodes simply being a flog. Winmar never acted like a mega flog like goodes did on field.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Read what I wrote above. I never denied both players were racially abused. What I don't agree with is the claim goodes was racially abused to the same extent that winmar was or in the same manner.

Goodes wasn't playing in an era where spectators were regularly in the face of indigenous players calling them names like ape and monkey throughout the match week in, week out. Furthermore goodes didn't play in an era where such behaviour was deemed acceptable and mimicked by the crowd. In the early 90s people would freely join in, laugh and say nothing if an indigenous player was called names like a monkey or boong. In goodes time it gets rightly called out and people have been dealt with appropriately (see the Lance franklin abuse example)

Some situations goodes complained about as being racist simply weren't. The war dance goal celebration is a good example of this. Goodes got booed because he incited the crowd and the crowd gave him the good old flog treatment in the exact same way Carlton fans abused tiprat Milne after he gave their cheer squad s**t and Clayton oliver got abused for his bust up with the supporter.

So no this issue of racial abuse towards goodes was never the same as the racial abuse towards winmar. Racial abuse is unacceptable. However unlike the winmar s**t, half the crap that goodes and especially the PC supporters were whinging about as being racist wasn't and was due to goodes simply being a flog. Winmar never acted like a mega flog like goodes did on field.

It's a shame that your point of view is probably representative of most AFL fans.

Let me begin by saying that I understand your point of view. It's tempting to think that the days of racist abuse as a mainstream activity are behind us, that we've flicked the magic switch.

In reality, Winmar, and writing codes of conduct are just the start - we have a long way to go. Don't forget, when the AFL brought in Rule 30 to deal with racial vilification, every ignorant footy fan and his dog was whining about the 'PC brigade'.

Things may be better now, but there is no doubt that indigenous players (past and present) still feel there is a long way to go. Education needs to continue, and we need to confront some ugly and uncomfortable questions about our game. I'm talking about the lack of indigenous people in the media and at administrative levels.

The ugliest truth we'll need to face is that the game's most decorated indigenous player retired because he felt unwelcome on the field - and we didn't do enough to stop it. We left it to indigenous players to write open letters and do extravagant goal celebrations. We weren't willing, as a community, to ignore tools like Dermott, Akermanis, Newman and listen to indigenous people.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Gonna recycle my post that Total Power has already squibbed on and that nobody else has been willing to address when trying to re-write history.

"Show me when he was booed after the 'ape incident' and before Australian of the year.

Hint: You can't."

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? He was booed by far less fans than when he became AOTY. It still doesn't alter the fact the booing was politically motivated, not due to his playing style.

And thanks for using the word "recycle". Because that's all this thread is. A dull recycle of an old chat. Goodes was treated poorly. Obviously.

 

[Monkey King]

I'm really happy that you embraced my analogy.

But, no. You can't say "Adam Goodes lacks diplomacy" and then later declare that you intended it to be a neutral appraisal of the concept of diplomacy. You were criticising Goodes, it's time to admit that, and also question why you don't choose criticise those who racially abuse him?

The OP asked a question - “what’s the key difference between these two social figures?”. I answered that question with what I consider to be a fairly accurate observation and provided an example of such. So if you disagree, state your case and point out why in my example, I’ve got it wrong.

As for not criticising those who racially abuse Goodes, how would doing so address the above question?

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? He was booed by far less fans than when he became AOTY. It still doesn't alter the fact the booing was politically motivated, not due to his playing style.

And thanks for using the word "recycle". Because that's all this thread is. A dull recycle of an old chat. Goodes was treated poorly. Obviously.

You said this.

"The boos started after he called out the girl for racism"

There was absolutely no difference in how he was treated by crowds before that incident and after that incident but BEFORE the AOTY.

In fact it was well after AOTY that it picked up.

You and others want to imply he was booed for calling out the girl. This is simplistic and disingenuous.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

You said this.

"The boos started after he called out the girl for racism"

There was absolutely no difference in how he was treated by crowds before that incident and after that incident but BEFORE the AOTY.

In fact it was well after AOTY that it picked up.

You and others want to imply he was booed for calling out the girl. This is simplistic and disingenuous.

No, it's factual. Collingwood fans booed him after that. It grew from there. "Absolutely no difference" is a lie.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

No, it's factual. Collingwood fans booed him after that. It grew from there. "Absolutely no difference" is a lie.

So your claim is that Goodes was fiercely booed by Collingwood fans in round 20 of the 2013 season?

 

[Number37]

Bigfooty has already unequivocally established that Adam Goodes wasn't booed by racists.

He was booed because an indigenous AFL player who was gifted AOTY has no right to tell white Australians that indigenous people have been treated badly since day dot especially considering that one time he slid into a contest.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

So your claim is that Goodes was fiercely booed by Collingwood fans in round 20 of the 2013 season?

My claim is exactly what I said. You feel a need to spin it. That says something, much like it says something that people want to have this conversation over and over and over again, like they miss the repetitiveness of the Essendon scandal.

 

[TimmeT]

Bigfooty has already unequivocally established that Adam Goodes wasn't booed by racists.

He was booed because an indigenous AFL player who was gifted AOTY has no right to tell white Australians that indigenous people have been treated badly since day dot especially considering that one time he slid into a contest.

Lol so when the tiprat did stupid celebrations after a goal, directed them at the crowd and was roundly booed for it for being a flog its not racist cause he's white.

When Adam Goodes did his stupid dance (which most would have had no idea what it was till he made it public after the match ended), directed it at the crowd and was roundly booed for ir, it must have been racist cause he's aboriginal and did an aboriginal dance...

The answer is no. He got booed for being a flog much like when he got booed for the dirty acts on field.

 

[Number37]

Lol so when the tiprat did stupid celebrations after a goal, directed them at the crowd and was roundly booed for it for being a flog its not racist cause he's white.

When Adam Goodes did his stupid dance (which most would have had no idea what it was till he made it public after the match ended), directed it at the crowd and was roundly booed for ir, it must have been racist cause he's aboriginal and did an aboriginal dance...

The answer is no. He got booed for being a flog much like when he got booed for the dirty acts on field.

Oh soz, forgot about the dance.
So for clarity.

1. Gifted AOTY
2. Told white people that indigenous folk were getting a raw deal.
3. Slid into a contest.
4. Threw an imaginery spear during a goal celebration.

As we can all see, definitely no racial element (1,2,4) to any booing it was all because he slid into a contest (3).

Maybe there was 5.
5. Told a 15 year old girl not to be racist.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the booing wasn't racist.
1,2,4 & 5 are just pure coincidence
3 is the one and only reason he got booed.

 

[TimmeT]

Oh soz, forgot about the dance.
So for clarity.

1. Gifted AOTY
2. Told white people that indigenous folk were getting a raw deal.
3. Slid into a contest.
4. Threw an imaginery spear during a goal celebration.

As we can all see, definitely no racial element (1,2,4) to any booing it was all because he slid into a contest (3).

Maybe there was 5.
5. Told a 15 year old girl not to be racist.

Of course that doesn't change the fact that the booing wasn't racist.
1,2,4 & 5 are just pure coincidence
3 is the one and only reason he got booed.

You're being disingenuous about the spear. The same people who claim afl fans are clues racists suddenly claim they should have known what goodes dance was about. If you can't see the irony and contradiction in that then I can't help you.

As for the aoty pretty sure goodes win was discussed and debated for the same reason Rosie batty got given hers. Both were seen as unworthy awardees and changes in the decision making process and or voting process were widely called for due to people feeling others were more deserving.

Note how 1, 2 & 4 have no relevance to him getting booed for sliding into the contest or the other times he got off sanction(s) for dirty acts with the mrp and people booed him for the dog act the next week with the purpose of letting him know he played dirty and with their mrp dissatisfaction.

Leftists and Sydney fans are quick to play this race card even when facts and logic show the complaints from people and other supporters aren't race based.

 

[Number37]

You're being disingenuous about the spear. The same people who claim afl fans are clues racists suddenly claim they should have known what goodes dance was about. If you can't see the irony and contradiction in that then I can't help you.

As for the aoty pretty sure goodes win was discussed and debated for the same reason Rosie batty got given hers. Both were seen as unworthy awardees and changes in the decision making process and or voting process were widely called for due to people feeling others were more deserving.

Note how 1, 2 & 4 have no relevance to him getting booed for sliding into the contest or the other times he got off sanction(s) for dirty acts with the mrp and people booed him for the dog act the next week with the purpose of letting him know he played dirty and with their mrp dissatisfaction.

Leftists and Sydney fans are quick to play this race card even when facts and logic show the complaints from people and other supporters aren't race based.

Yes you're right.
It would be terribly confusing to work out why an indigenous man doing a mock traditional dance in celebration of a goal would imitate throwing a spear.
All the questions it would raise.
Is he throwing it at me?
Why is he throwing it at me, what did I do?

The natural reaction would be to boo because the MRP needs to know my dissatisfaction with a wholly unrelated event or events.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

My claim is exactly what I said. You feel a need to spin it. That says something, much like it says something that people want to have this conversation over and over and over again, like they miss the repetitiveness of the Essendon scandal.

And I am calling you out on that claim and asking you to show where he was booed excessively after the girl incident and before AOTY.

Nobody can seem to do that yet they want to blame the pointing out the girl for the booing.

 

[Jobe Watson]

If you’re not perceived as morally aware as him, he’ll deride you for it, ruin your reputation, and cut his association with you. You’re assumed to be a bad person in his eyes

This is a stupid comment made worse by having nothing behind it.

Spot on.

Terrible thread. OP should be embarrassed.

 

[Big_Luch]

I think the fact he plays for Sydney is also relevant. COLA, always playing finals, AFL preferential treatment etc really annoys most Victorians I know.

Booing probably wouldn't have been so bad if he played for a Vic club.

 

[ShanDog]

I think the fact he plays for Sydney is also relevant. COLA, always playing finals, AFL preferential treatment etc really annoys most Victorians I know.

Booing probably wouldn't have been so bad if he played for a Vic club.

Certain truth to this. I've always thought there was a perfect storm of characteristics to the Goodes booing that made it happen, including the above. Lots of other elements like being outspoken about racial issues (nobody likes being incidentally lumped in as a racist), the seemingly favoured umpiring, etc. There's a tipping point somewhere and it all just added up to reaching it.

There were of course racist assholes who boo'd because that's who they are. Then there's the majority who did it because of the above reasons. And then the rest of us who didn't give a s**t.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Nobody can seem to do that yet they want to blame the pointing out the girl for the booing.

Got a link to replays of the games in question?

 

[TimmeT]

Yes you're right.
It would be terribly confusing to work out why an indigenous man doing a mock traditional dance in celebration of a goal would imitate throwing a spear.
All the questions it would raise.
Is he throwing it at me?
Why is he throwing it at me, what did I do?

The natural reaction would be to boo because the MRP needs to know my dissatisfaction with a wholly unrelated event or events.

You're conflating issues here to make a ridiculous and silly point.

On another note, if the booing of Goodes is so racist as was claimed by Goodes after the match here, why did West Coast fans get criticised for booing everybody and anybody and not just specifically Goodes?



Here is a video from two years earlier directed at Jobe Watson for his perceived drug cheating.


So the question is how can you or anyone else claim the booing of Goodes is purely racial when evidence shows that the booing of players excessively isn't new. Secondly how can Goodes claim this sup-porter group is being racist when they have exhibited the same booing behaviour to a number of players and others involved in the game like umpires over the years which they disliked and to other champions?

The second video really doesn't do a lot to support Goodes claims.

 

[Number37]

You're conflating issues here to make a ridiculous and silly point.

On another note, if the booing of Goodes is so racist as was claimed by Goodes after the match here, why did West Coast fans get criticised for booing everybody and anybody and not just specifically Goodes?



Here is a video from two years earlier directed at Jobe Watson for his perceived drug cheating.


So the question is how can you or anyone else claim the booing of Goodes is purely racial when evidence shows that the booing of players excessively isn't new. Secondly how can Goodes claim this sup-porter group is being racist when they have exhibited the same booing behaviour to a number of players and others involved in the game like umpires over the years which they disliked and to other champions?

The second video really doesn't do a lot to support Goodes claims.

You were the one that brought up the dance.

No amount of making excuses will deny the fact that the booing was racist.

 

[TimmeT]

You were the one that brought up the dance.

No amount of making excuses will deny the fact that the booing was racist.

No it doesn't make it racist and this has been clearly shown to you why it cannot be categorically assumed that everyone booing was doing it for racist reasons. It seems that only people who are PC warriors and apologists are coming up with this claim based on their false assumptions and are wilfully choosing to ignore all the other examples of stupid and provocative actions from players to the crowd which has resulted in them being booed.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I think the fact he plays for Sydney is also relevant. COLA, always playing finals, AFL preferential treatment etc really annoys most Victorians I know.

Booing probably wouldn't have been so bad if he played for a Vic club.

Yeah, good point.

I think that for alot supporters, towards the end of his career, booing Goodes was the equivalent of giving the metaphorical finger to the AFL.....There was a certain element of anti-authoritarianism to it.....By booing the favored son of the favored club.....The 'teacher's pet, so to speak.

My contention has always been that the AFL built a rod for it's own back in the Goodes affair.....That rather than furthering the cause of reconciliation, they set it back, by their silly PC attempts to enforce their agenda down the football public's throats....A rather failed attempt at a manufactured narrative.

 

[Number37]

No it doesn't make it racist and this has been clearly shown to you why it cannot be categorically assumed that everyone booing was doing it for racist reasons. It seems that only people who are PC warriors and apologists are coming up with this claim based on their false assumptions and are wilfully choosing to ignore all the other examples of stupid and provocative actions from players to the crowd which has resulted in them being booed.

On the evidence the booing was all about race. No amount of excuse making will change that.

You can go on with your PC warriors and apologists and leftists and all the other rubbish, simple fact remains, the booing of Adam Goodes was racially motivated.