Adelaide Crows 2021 List Management thread

Will the Crows pick up any of these players in the off-season?


  • Total voters
    77
  • Poll closed .

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Crow till I die

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I can confirm a little known secret of the Adelaide forum.

The secret is: I am, in fact, every single poster on the Adelaide board. Except Vader. Who has me on ignore anyway.

It is hard logging on to all the different accounts using different IPs, but what can I say? I just love playing arguing with myself.
you must have found it very very VERY difficult playing American Crow since his boy has been numero uno O/S...talk about defending the indefensible
 

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Dangarman

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OK, let's try and get this thread back on track. (FWIW in the words of Popeye, "I am who I am" - and in my case no-one else).

Here's a picture of our rebuild in a spreadsheet. I'd like to do the same for Brisbane over '16/'17/'18 to get a feel for whether we can emulate their rebuild and go from 15th to top 4. Interestingly, the 5 players who made their Crows debut in 2017 are no longer on our list - Gallucci, Menzel, Beech, Keath and Hampton.
The class of 2016 draftees was a big fizzer too. Only Himmelberg remains. Shows number of games played in each of '19/'20/'21.
Accuracy not guaranteed, corrections welcome. Didn't bother looking up the first year for most of the players no longer on the list. First year column is a bit of a mix between debut year (some 2018 and earlier) and first year on the list (some 2018 and later).

25 players moved on over 3 years (assuming Davis doesn't come back).

Only O'Connor and Crocker have been picked up and moved on in the Nicks era.

There is a core of 20 players still on the list from the 2019 list. 7 of those were untried by end of 2019 (McPherson, Fogarty, Butts, McHenry, Sholl, Hamill and Strachan). All of those except Strachan have now played 24 or more games.

Ignoring the Crocker and O'Connor fails, 5 of the 2020 additions have been well tested. Big ticks for Keays and Schoenberg; McAdam, Frampton and McAsey need further work. Worrell and Gollant each given a taster.

Rowe, Berry, Thilthorpe and Murray all played 13+ games in this their first year on the list.

I think it is only Borlase, Newchurch and Parnell yet to play AFL on our list prior to the draft.

Fully fit I would see the bolded players being the 'best 24' ignoring team balance; a good core with solid depth, and I'm pretty optimistic for next year. That said, we would still be very injury vulnerable.

If you disagree with my best 24, tell me which of them would be left out of the R1 '22 side if match fit. I'm not sure who I'd leave out and who would be sub if they were all fit. Hopefully at least one of our draftees will have a big pre-season and demand R1 selection too.

Player2019202020212022First yearLast year
Betts
21​
T
1​
2019​
Keath
18​
T
1​
2019​
Greenwood
14​
T
1​
2019​
Jenkins
11​
T
1​
2019​
Jacobs
5​
T
1​
2019​
Douglas
9​
R
1​
2019​
Otten
3​
R
1​
2019​
B Crouch
22​
12​
F
1​
2020​
Hartigan
19​
12​
F
1​
2020​
Stengle
2​
12​
D
1​
2020​
Poholke
2​
5​
D
1​
2020​
Atkins
20​
4​
F
1​
2020​
Gibbs
12​
3​
R
1​
2020​
Knight
15​
1​
F
1​
2020​
Gallucci
10​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Wilson
1​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Taylor
0​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Kelly
22​
15​
20​
F
1​
2021​
Mackay
18​
10​
18​
R
1​
2021​
Lynch
16​
13​
12​
D
1​
2021​
Davis
1​
1​
4​
D?
1​
2021​
Talia
22​
14​
0​
R
1​
2021​
Sloane
22​
12​
18​
2009​
Walker
22​
14​
17​
2009​
Smith
22​
16​
21​
2011​
Brown
15​
17​
11​
2012​
Laird
22​
17​
22​
2013​
M Crouch
19​
16​
0​
2014​
Seedsman
13​
9​
22​
2015​
O'Brien
18​
17​
20​
2016​
Milera
17​
2​
0​
2016​
Doedee
1​
9​
21​
2017​
Murphy
21​
12​
15​
2018​
Himmelberg
7​
11​
8​
2017​
McPherson
0​
9​
18​
2018​
Fogarty
0​
10​
17​
2018​
Hunter
0​
D
2019​
2019​
Butts
0​
2​
22​
2019​
McHenry
0​
8​
21​
2019​
Sholl
0​
8​
19​
2019​
Hamill
0​
8​
17​
2019​
Jones
8​
15​
15​
2019​
Strachan
0​
0​
2​
2019​
CrockerA
7​
D
2020​
2020​
O'ConnorA
0​
3​
D
2020​
2021​
KeaysR
16​
22​
2020​
SchoenbergD
8​
22​
2020​
McAdamT
13​
15​
2020​
FramptonT
5​
10​
2020​
WorrellD
0​
1​
2020​
GollantD
0​
1​
2020​
McAseyD
10​
0​
2020​
RoweD
19​
2021​
BerryD
17​
2021​
ThilthorpeD
14​
2021​
MurrayM
13​
2021​
CookD
3​
2021​
HatelyT
3​
2021​
PedlarD
2​
2021​
HingeR
1​
2021​
BorlaseR(B)
0​
2021​
NewchurchR(B)
0​
2021​
ParnellM
0​
2021​
DawsonT
2022​

EDIT - Doodee and Himmelberg first years corrected, zero games played in 2017.
 
Last edited:

Kane McGoodwin

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OK, let's try and get this thread back on track. (FWIW in the words of Popeye, "I am who I am" - and in my case no-one else).

Here's a picture of our rebuild in a spreadsheet. I'd like to do the same for Brisbane over '16/'17/'18 to get a feel for whether we can emulate their rebuild and go from 15th to top 4. Interestingly, the 5 players who made their Crows debut in 2017 are no longer on our list - Gallucci, Menzel, Beech, Keath and Hampton.
The class of 2016 draftees was a big fizzer too. Only Himmelberg remains. Shows number of games played in each of '19/'20/'21.
Accuracy not guaranteed, corrections welcome. Didn't bother looking up the first year for most of the players no longer on the list. First year column is a bit of a mix between debut year (some 2018 and earlier) and first year on the list (some 2018 and later).

25 players moved on over 3 years (assuming Davis doesn't come back).

Only O'Connor and Crocker have been picked up and moved on in the Nicks era.

There is a core of 20 players still on the list from the 2019 list. 7 of those were untried by end of 2019 (McPherson, Fogarty, Butts, McHenry, Sholl, Hamill and Strachan). All of those except Strachan have now played 24 or more games.

Ignoring the Crocker and O'Connor fails, 5 of the 2020 additions have been well tested. Big ticks for Keays and Schoenberg; McAdam, Frampton and McAsey need further work. Worrell and Gollant each given a taster.

Rowe, Berry, Thilthorpe and Murray all played 13+ games in this their first year on the list.

I think it is only Borlase, Newchurch and Parnell yet to play AFL on our list prior to the draft.

Fully fit I would see the bolded players being the 'best 24' ignoring team balance; a good core with solid depth, and I'm pretty optimistic for next year. That said, we would still be very injury vulnerable.

If you disagree with my best 24, tell me which of them would be left out of the R1 '22 side if match fit. I'm not sure who I'd leave out and who would be sub if they were all fit. Hopefully at least one of our draftees will have a big pre-season and demand R1 selection too.

Player2019202020212022First yearLast year
Betts
21​
T
1​
2019​
Keath
18​
T
1​
2019​
Greenwood
14​
T
1​
2019​
Jenkins
11​
T
1​
2019​
Jacobs
5​
T
1​
2019​
Douglas
9​
R
1​
2019​
Otten
3​
R
1​
2019​
B Crouch
22​
12​
F
1​
2020​
Hartigan
19​
12​
F
1​
2020​
Stengle
2​
12​
D
1​
2020​
Poholke
2​
5​
D
1​
2020​
Atkins
20​
4​
F
1​
2020​
Gibbs
12​
3​
R
1​
2020​
Knight
15​
1​
F
1​
2020​
Gallucci
10​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Wilson
1​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Taylor
0​
0​
D
1​
2020​
Kelly
22​
15​
20​
F
1​
2021​
Mackay
18​
10​
18​
R
1​
2021​
Lynch
16​
13​
12​
D
1​
2021​
Davis
1​
1​
4​
D?
1​
2021​
Talia
22​
14​
0​
R
1​
2021​
Sloane
22​
12​
18​
2009​
Walker
22​
14​
17​
2009​
Smith
22​
16​
21​
2011​
Brown
15​
17​
11​
2012​
Laird
22​
17​
22​
2013​
M Crouch
19​
16​
0​
2014​
Seedsman
13​
9​
22​
2015​
O'Brien
18​
17​
20​
2016​
Milera
17​
2​
0​
2016​
Doedee
1​
9​
21​
2018​
Murphy
21​
12​
15​
2018​
Himmelberg
7​
11​
8​
2018​
McPherson
0​
9​
18​
2018​
Fogarty
0​
10​
17​
2018​
Hunter
0​
D
2019​
2019​
Butts
0​
2​
22​
2019​
McHenry
0​
8​
21​
2019​
Sholl
0​
8​
19​
2019​
Hamill
0​
8​
17​
2019​
Jones
8​
15​
15​
2019​
Strachan
0​
0​
2​
2019​
CrockerA
7​
D
2020​
2020​
O'ConnorA
0​
3​
D
2020​
2021​
KeaysR
16​
22​
2020​
SchoenbergD
8​
22​
2020​
McAdamT
13​
15​
2020​
FramptonT
5​
10​
2020​
WorrellD
0​
1​
2020​
GollantD
0​
1​
2020​
McAseyD
10​
0​
2020​
RoweD
19​
2021​
BerryD
17​
2021​
ThilthorpeD
14​
2021​
MurrayM
13​
2021​
CookD
3​
2021​
HatelyT
3​
2021​
PedlarD
2​
2021​
HingeR
1​
2021​
BorlaseR(B)
0​
2021​
NewchurchR(B)
0​
2021​
ParnellM
0​
2021​
DawsonT
2022​
Nice work.

Only 9 players on our list for more than 4 years is a huge turnover!

Doubt many (any?) other teams would be in the same boat.
 

Dangarman

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Nice work.

Only 9 players on our list for more than 4 years is a huge turnover!

Doubt many (any?) other teams would be in the same boat.
It's actually 11 players, Dood and Berg were on the list in 2017, but didn't play. It's because I got lazy and just checked the debut year for pre 2018 draftees.
OP corrected.
 

Dangarman

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Shows why we have that huge gap between Milera on 62 games and Brown on 178 games for the AFC. Only Crouch on 125 games in that range.

That group of players on 0 games for 2019 went a long way to making that gap.
 

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Mego Red

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Fair call, I think Skinner would also be a better call, could fit in to the AFL team, otherwise dominate the SANFL.

No point getting these older players.

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I think there's a LOT of point to getting some older players for the two's - the question is who and how many.
 

Golumless

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I think there's a LOT of point to getting some older players for the two's - the question is who and how many.
There is a lot of point adding one senior player, but that's because Wrights position has opened up.

There is no point whatsoever adding any to our list though for the sake of having senior players playing the 2s. It doesn't achieve anything positive on field (seeing our SANFL teams competitiveness hinges on having as little top-ups playing as possible), we have enough senior players as is to drive standards and it's providing a trap that Nick's will inevitably fall for, after all, Frampton kept coming back despite being a potatoe this year. There is no doubt a senior player will get the same treatment due to how horrifically overvalued experience is.

The main way out of the rebuild is to double down on kids and go hard at making big acquisitions at the trade table.
 

Dangarman

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So the delisted free agency period is open, Brander now officially with the Giants. Will be interested to see who gets a lifeline and if we spring any surprises.
 

Mego Red

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There is a lot of point adding one senior player, but that's because Wrights position has opened up.

There is no point whatsoever adding any to our list though for the sake of having senior players playing the 2s. It doesn't achieve anything positive on field (seeing our SANFL teams competitiveness hinges on having as little top-ups playing as possible), we have enough senior players as is to drive standards and it's providing a trap that Nick's will inevitably fall for, after all, Frampton kept coming back despite being a potatoe this year. There is no doubt a senior player will get the same treatment due to how horrifically overvalued experience is.

The main way out of the rebuild is to double down on kids and go hard at making big acquisitions at the trade table.
You can't just have 44 kids.

Besides the fact they'll suffer from lack of leadership on the ground (and all just be running around like headless chooks), you can't give all 44 players the opportunities they need.

Obviously, we need mature leadership in the senior side, but we need it in the twos as well.
 

Dangarman

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OK, let's try and get this thread back on track. (FWIW in the words of Popeye, "I am who I am" - and in my case no-one else).

Here's a picture of our rebuild in a spreadsheet. I'd like to do the same for Brisbane over '16/'17/'18 to get a feel for whether we can emulate their rebuild and go from 15th to top 4. Interestingly, the 5 players who made their Crows debut in 2017 are no longer on our list - Gallucci, Menzel, Beech, Keath and Hampton.
The class of 2016 draftees was a big fizzer too. Only Himmelberg remains. Shows number of games played in each of '19/'20/'21.
Accuracy not guaranteed, corrections welcome. Didn't bother looking up the first year for most of the players no longer on the list. First year column is a bit of a mix between debut year (some 2018 and earlier) and first year on the list (some 2018 and later).

25 players moved on over 3 years (assuming Davis doesn't come back).

Only O'Connor and Crocker have been picked up and moved on in the Nicks era.

There is a core of 20 players still on the list from the 2019 list. 7 of those were untried by end of 2019 (McPherson, Fogarty, Butts, McHenry, Sholl, Hamill and Strachan). All of those except Strachan have now played 24 or more games.

Ignoring the Crocker and O'Connor fails, 5 of the 2020 additions have been well tested. Big ticks for Keays and Schoenberg; McAdam, Frampton and McAsey need further work. Worrell and Gollant each given a taster.

Rowe, Berry, Thilthorpe and Murray all played 13+ games in this their first year on the list...
OK, here's the same table for Brisbane. Because I can, I've filled in the numbers for Y4, which is 2022 for the Crows.

My conclusion is that there are a lot of similarities between the two clubs over the 3 years in question,

StatAdBri
Core players2020
Y1-3 players deleted2229
Y1 additions (still listed Y4)76
Y1 class ave games over Y2/Y38.811.5
Y2 additions 11*9
Y2 class ave games over Y36.5*7.6
* Take out injured Hinge; and SSP Parnell, and it is 9 additions averaging 7.9 games.

However, the recruiting prior to their 2019 finals year is clearly what propelled them up the ladder.

Adding Lachie Neale, Jarrod Lyons, Linc McCarthy and Marcus Adams was always going to make a difference. Drafting Noah Answerth as well was icing.
Those 5 recruits collectively missed only 19 games in Brisbane's 2019 campaign.

Add Cameron, Rayner and Hodge recruited the year before and you have 8 players missing only 21 games between them. Take out 10 game Adams and it is 7 recruits over 2 years missing only 7 games between them. That's recruiting a third of your best 22 over 2 trade/draft periods.

Brisbane must have had an amazing run with injuries that year too. Their core group of 19 players only missed 21 games between them.
19 players - 435 games (82%)
16 players - 93 games. (18%)

Compare that to the Crows in 2019
19 players - 371 games (77%)
17 players - 113 games (23%)

I can't see Dawson and our top draft pick this year along with our class of 2020 making that sort of contribution. Might still be a few years away from finals.


Player2016201720182019First yearLast year
Hanley, P
22​
T
1​
2016​
Merrett
19​
R
1​
2016​
Green, J
11​
D
1​
2016​
Paine, J
4​
D
1​
2016​
West
4​
R
1​
2016​
Evans
2​
D
1​
2016​
Beasley
0​
D
1​
2016​
Clarke, J
0​
R
1​
2016​
Watts, J
0​
D
1​
2016​
McGrath, J
0​
D
1​
2016​
McGuinness
0​
D
1​
2016​
Schache
17​
10​
T
1​
2017​
FrostT
2​
D
2017​
2017​
Beams, D
2​
19​
21​
T
1​
2018​
Mayes
21​
21​
6​
T
1​
2018​
Barrett
0​
17​
5​
D
1​
2018​
Bell, T
14​
6​
1​
D
1​
2018​
Beams, C
9​
9​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Clayton
2​
0​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Close
2​
10​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Dawson
7​
1​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Freeman
4​
0​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Grewar
0​
0​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Hammelmann
9​
3​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Hanley, C
0​
0​
0​
R
1​
2018​
Harwood
13​
9​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Jansen
7​
1​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Paparone
4​
6​
0​
D
1​
2018​
William, R
3​
0​
0​
D
1​
2018​
Gardiner
18​
19​
20​
24​
1​
Martin
20​
22​
22​
24​
1​
McStay
12​
19​
19​
24​
1​
Rich
21​
22​
18​
24​
1​
Zorko
20​
21​
22​
24​
1​
Hipwood
10​
20​
22​
23​
1​
Robinson
21​
7​
19​
23​
1​
Andrews
17​
22​
18​
21​
1​
Christensen
11​
0​
22​
13​
1​
Walker, J
16​
11​
14​
11​
1​
Lester
19​
22​
15​
9​
1​
Mathieson
11​
13​
13​
9​
1​
Robertson, N
6​
21​
21​
5​
1​
Taylor, L
19​
22​
22​
5​
1​
Bastinac
22​
0​
2​
3​
1​
Cutler, T
15​
12​
18​
3​
1​
Allison
0​
5​
3​
2​
1​
Keays
16​
10​
2​
2​
1​
Smith, A
3​
6​
0​
2​
1​
Bewick
14​
8​
3​
0​
1​
McLuggageD
18​
22​
23​
2017​
WitherdenD
9​
21​
23​
2017​
McInerneyD
0​
16​
21​
2017​
Berry, JD
16​
21​
20​
2017​
Cox, CD
8​
4​
1​
2017​
EaglesD
0​
4​
0​
2017​
CameronT
11​
24​
2018​
RaynerD
22​
24​
2018​
HodgeT
19​
22​
2018​
Bailey, ZD
12​
15​
2018​
HingeR
0​
2​
2018​
StarcevichD
4​
1​
2018​
PayneD
0​
0​
2018​
WoollerD
0​
0​
2018​
BallendenD
0​
0​
2018​
LyonsF
24​
2019​
McCarthyT
24​
2019​
NealeT
24​
2019​
AnswerthD
19​
2019​
Adams, MT
10​
2019​
Smith, ElyD
0​
2019​
Berry, TomD
0​
2019​
Joyce, TomD
0​
2019​
McFayden, CD
0​
2019​
 

LoBu

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I think there's a LOT of point to getting some older players for the two's - the question is who and how many.
If we wanted older players we should have kept Lynch, pretty much we are looking for youth and talent to fill positions of need, not depth, and may the best player win the spot in the firsts.

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Golumless

A bigger deal out west.
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You can't just have 44 kids.

Besides the fact they'll suffer from lack of leadership on the ground (and all just be running around like headless chooks), you can't give all 44 players the opportunities they need.

Obviously, we need mature leadership in the senior side, but we need it in the twos as well.
Of course you can't. Eventually people need to fail, and your lesser prospects fall by the wayside. It's irrelevant that they do as well.

I can guarantee if we recruited a senior guy to be depth in the 2s, he's playing in our 1s by round 10 and it has nothing to do with talent on our list either, and it's because of what you are suggesting. This mythical belief that experience makes one iota of difference to a team. Our reserves will be fine if the only leader we have on the field is our SANFL recruit, they were this year. Most of them are now 2-5 year players, they know the game plan inside and out (it does not take 7 years to learn one). The times they won't be fine is if we are racking up injuries and we have to deal with top-ups. That has nothing to do with leadership/experience either, most of our top-ups aren't SANFL calibre players.

It's both terrible and inexcusable for us to bringing in senior players on our list who do not drastically improve our best 22. We're just increasing the risk of failing our rebuild without any gain whatsoever.
 

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