Adelaide Giants Discussion Thread

[MatthewB]

I did enjoy Rooch on AA yesterday. He said it wasnt ethical to invest in esports where its promoting people to sit behind a xbox rather than play the game itself. Meanwhile Port have invested in pokies which bankrupts people and breaks up families.

#portlogic

 

[Vhaluus]

Are you serious about this, because the Bolded part of a question is interesting, I am surprised you have not noticed how they are doing there own Media productions, which they are using to sell their services to outside companies? Think of Video marketing and Production. Social media services for advancing business, Acquiring the Bite open them up to overseas organizations as some of the media work they will be doing for the Bite will be seen overseas. same as Legacy

As for the other Look up what Nigel Smart doing, have a close look at Legacy. and the E-Sports world. I was curious so I asked questions.
Then think about what the effect of doing the Legacy media presentations in all areas of media productions. is having, and who get paid for doing these presentations.

Just Curious have you ever wonder why the Crows sponsorship agreement with ISC is worth more than some of the other clubs in the AFL.

So what new business have they aquired as a result of taking on Legacy, other than Legacy related content?

As for the 'international' exposure from Legacy, you are aware they only really play regularly in our domestic league?

Are you aware that the vast majority of Australians that follow league of legends e-sports follow NALCS and hardly watch our own local league? And OPL is virtually unknown to league followers outside Australia?

OPL on twitch has 66k followers, NALCS has 641k. Does that put into perspective how small our market is? 10%.

 

[thirtytwo]

For the sake of clarity I'll call our vision or mission our purpose because a vision and mission are different things but researchers and experts are divided on which one is which. The AFC's purpose is the reason it exists, it answers the question; "why are we even here?". There is a tonne of research that shows that companies that have and purpose and stick to it without distraction are far more successful in the long-term.

We've obviously got a purpose, what is it? To be the best sporting administration company in the world? I wouldn't mind that if we had a company that owned subsidiaries and the AFC was one of those subsidiaries, along with the Bite and Legacy, but that's not what's happening.

Take Wesfarmers for example, it would have a purpose of it's own and it's subsidiaries have purposes of their own, which is fine because they all have their own CEO's and management teams who focus on the purpose of each subsidiary. We've got a mix and match structure which just isn't good business. The AFC have a confused purpose; are we there to be the best club in the AFL? Are we there to run other sporting clubs? What exactly do we exist for? What is the purpose of the Bite and Legacy? Are they there to feed the AFC? I don't think that's appropriate, neither do I think it will work because they are community organisations on their own, and their fans expect them to have their own purpose which aligns with their connection and support of those clubs.

So what do we do if we maxed out our revenue? I don't believe there is such thing as maxing out revenue. Back yourself in to be innovative and work out how to increase it without compromising your purpose.

I would have thought Adelaide Sports and Entertainment would be the management company with the Bite, Afc media and Legacy operating under their control, which is what Fagan suggested was happening. So a parent company with one purpose and subsidiaries with each having their own purpose.
Afc retains its own identity and purpose.

What is the purpose of taking on this new venture?
Could it possibly be a potential or actual flattening of revenue, or a move to protect the revenue we have from afl equalisation tax?
What is the purpose of the Afc and why is this extra revenue considered important to that purpose?

A sporting club is not a traditional business it has, in my opinion, limited opportunity for income growth it sells one product, it’s team, to a niche market, it’s supporters.
What are the other options for raising the income of a footy club, when the club has no interest in hospitality or gambling? The easiest way for the club to lift revenue is too raise membership costs and ticket and merchandise pricing, which risks alienating your market costing you both lost sales and lost sponsorship dollars.

You have used Wesfarmers as an example of a company investing and diversifying successfully, (which is counter to the advice you are giving by the way). Wesfarmers were originally a farmers co-operative fortunately for them someone in charge had the vision and belief in themselves and their ability to invest in other income streams and manage them, if they hadn’t Wesfarmers would still just be a farmers co-operative or quite possibly just a blip in Australian corporate history.

Or they could have had one singular focus and become the world leaders in that field, like Kodak.

 

[ad victoriam]

So what new business have they aquired as a result of taking on Legacy, other than Legacy related content?

As for the 'international' exposure from Legacy, you are aware they only really play regularly in our domestic league?

Are you aware that the vast majority of Australians that follow league of legends e-sports follow NALCS and hardly watch our own local league? And OPL is virtually unknown to league followers outside Australia?

OPL on twitch has 66k followers, NALCS has 641k. Does that put into perspective how small our market is? 10%.

I Have Grand Kids that tell all about those figures, they also tell me that Legacy played in IEM Sydney, Which last year had over 8million online views, and was bettered this year.
By the way they do participate in several international events, Did you even look at their season which is split into 2 areas ie OPL comp followed by MSI (Mid Season International) which involve teams from every region around the world. Then the second split which leads to the LoL World Championships
But the sport is growing in Australia, and the Crows involvement in the High School competition will help improve the Growth in conjunction with Bastion Live

One question you do know it more than League of Legends don't you, They are also involved in Overwatch, Rocket League and strategy game Starcraft 2, and the Crows recently acquired a full-time Counter-Strike Global Offensive roster.

Also, I am no expert as I got most of this information from my kids and Grandkids one who is involved with twitch and has a blog I believe or something he does on twitch.

 

[Vhaluus]

I Have Grand Kids that tell all about those figures, they also tell me that Legacy played in IEM Sydney, Which last year had over 8million online views, and was bettered this year.
By the way they do participate in several international events, Did you even look at their season which is split into 2 areas ie OPL comp followed by MSI (Mid Season International) which involve teams from every region around the world. Then the second split which leads to the LoL World Championships
But the sport is growing in Australia, and the Crows involvement in the High School competition will help improve the Growth in conjunction with Bastion Live

One question you do know it more than League of Legends don't you, They are also involved in Overwatch, Rocket League and strategy game Starcraft 2, and the Crows recently acquired a full-time Counter-Strike Global Offensive roster.

Also, I am no expert as I got most of this information from my kids and Grandkids one who is involved with twitch and has a blog I believe or something he does on twitch.

IEM had 8million views over 3 days.

Also it wasn't the league team that went to IEM, it was the CS-GO team. No-one gives a s**t about CS-GO, it's not a money maker. Also the Legacy team didn't make it on their own merits in CS-GO, they got in because other teams dropped out due to visa issues.

That's even ignoring that the best teams in esports have often started to opt not to go to IEM because it's usually poorly run and the prize money doesn't justify the inconvenience of it.

As for the games you listed

Overwatch: fairly well watched, some money there but our team is s**t
rocket league: no-one watches, no money in it
Starcraft 2: dead game watched by only the real die hards, no money in it
CS-GO: as I said s**t game, no audience and no money.

 

[ad victoriam]

IEM had 8million views over 3 days.

Also it wasn't the league team that went to IEM, it was the CS-GO team. No-one gives a s**t about CS-GO, it's not a money maker. Also the Legacy team didn't make it on their own merits in CS-GO, they got in because other teams dropped out due to visa issues.

That's even ignoring that the best teams in esports have often started to opt not to go to IEM because it's usually poorly run and the prize money doesn't justify the inconvenience of it.

As for the games you listed

Overwatch: fairly well watched, some money there but our team is s**t
rocket league: no-one watches, no money in it
Starcraft 2: dead game watched by only the real die hards, no money in it
CS-GO: as I said s**t game, no audience and no money.

8 million over 3 days in 2017, the 2018 figures are not out as far as I know but believed to be a lot better.
Also, some of the teams could not get a visa that the reason Legacy made it into the IEM comp. Legacy came 13 I believe.

The Oceana comp is improving every year, and now that there is a High school comp the growth will be quicker.
But it will be the Media Production that making the money for the Crows,
Don't let your fixation on the games blind you to the what happening beyond the game. The more exposure they get the better, and even blind Freddy can see the increased exposure they are getting in that area.
They started small with limited outlay, they have grown that investment at a steady rate.

 

[Vhaluus]

8 million over 3 days in 2017, the 2018 figures are not out as far as I know but believed to be a lot better.
Also, some of the teams could not get a visa that the reason Legacy made it into the IEM comp. Legacy came 13 I believe.

The Oceana comp is improving every year, and now that there is a High school comp the growth will be quicker.
But it will be the Media Production that making the money for the Crows,
Don't let your fixation on the games blind you to the what happening beyond the game. The more exposure they get the better, and even blind Freddy can see the increased exposure they are getting in that area.
They started small with limited outlay, they have grown that investment at a steady rate.

So we took on a significant expense just for exposure?

Why didn't we just let these teams remain independent and offer to do free media work for them in order to get publicity?

Would surely have been cheaper?

 

[ad victoriam]

So we took on a significant expense just for exposure?

Why didn't we just let these teams remain independent and offer to do free media work for them in order to get publicity?

Would surely have been cheaper?

What significant expense are you talking about? the cost of the Bite License is nil, nada, the expense of running the team is cost neutral that means nil cost to the Crows, In fact, it has the ability to generate income in the first year.
Legacy has Paid for itself and the Crows can almost say its generating income. If you take into account the extra money from the ISC sponsorship deal. and other companies.
And that so-called exposure is money in the bank, it putting our product (Adelaide Sport and entertainment) out there in front of more investors and clients. The Crows also charge for doing the media work and charge for anyone using the work,
Again get your head out of the football cloud.

 

[El Doederino]

The Crows also charge for doing the media work and charge for anyone using the work,
.

We charge ourselves?

 

[adelaidecrows]

I like what the Adelaide Football Club are doing and it could potentially turn the AFC into the premier sporting club in Australia. If you invest all your revenue into just one basket like AFL in Adelaide and its population its forever going to be limited at its AO capacity. But if you start purchasing and investing in multiple sports especially where there is growth, the club as a whole will benefit plus being invested in a team that plays a world wide sport provides extra networking opportunities in the search for elite performance.

To be honest it actually wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time we see the Adelaide Football Club change its business operation. Where we see a parent company under a different name created and then the Adelaide Football Club drops into one of its sporting clubs it owns and runs. And from there they acquire the Thunderbirds, Lightening and 36ers. All running costs become streamlined as a result. People who know far more about business would know if this would work but as I said I wont be surprised.

 

[Vhaluus]

What significant expense are you talking about? the cost of the Bite License is nil, nada, the expense of running the team is cost neutral that means nil cost to the Crows, In fact, it has the ability to generate income in the first year.
Legacy has Paid for itself and the Crows can almost say its generating income. If you take into account the extra money from the ISC sponsorship deal. and other companies.
And that so-called exposure is money in the bank, it putting our product (Adelaide Sport and entertainment) out there in front of more investors and clients. The Crows also charge for doing the media work and charge for anyone using the work,
Again get your head out of the football cloud.

How is it cost neutral?

There's the salary for staff and players, travel, equipment. Where's the income to make it cost neutral?

People keep saying legacy has somehow 'paid for itself' but provided NO proof. Please provide a source for the revenue they are bringing in?

 

[ad victoriam]

We charge ourselves?

I would and most businesses do charge between departments, Need to ask the financial guys for the big reasons why,

 

[El Doederino]

Was there talk about the BBL clubs being privatized?

That there is what we need to be aiming for.

 

[El Doederino]

I would and most businesses do charge between departments, Need to ask the financial guys for the big reasons why,

That’s all well and good but doesn’t make us any money.

 

[ad victoriam]

How is it cost neutral?

There's the salary for staff and players, travel, equipment. Where's the income to make it cost neutral?

People keep saying legacy has somehow 'paid for itself' but provided NO proof. Please provide a source for the revenue they are bringing in?

For the Adelaide, Bite look here plus the league payments for Media rights.
http://web.theabl.com.au/content/page.jsp?sid=t4064&ymd=20110106&content_id=16398494&vkey=team5
For Legacy
https://legacyesports.com.au/partners
Also for legacy, the value of the venture increased to more than triple what was paid.

 

[ManInTheArena]

I would have thought Adelaide Sports and Entertainment would be the management company with the Bite, Afc media and Legacy operating under their control, which is what Fagan suggested was happening. So a parent company with one purpose and subsidiaries with each having their own purpose.
Afc retains its own identity and purpose.

What is the purpose of taking on this new venture?
Could it possibly be a potential or actual flattening of revenue, or a move to protect the revenue we have from afl equalisation tax?
What is the purpose of the Afc and why is this extra revenue considered important to that purpose?

A sporting club is not a traditional business it has, in my opinion, limited opportunity for income growth it sells one product, it’s team, to a niche market, it’s supporters.
What are the other options for raising the income of a footy club, when the club has no interest in hospitality or gambling? The easiest way for the club to lift revenue is too raise membership costs and ticket and merchandise pricing, which risks alienating your market costing you both lost sales and lost sponsorship dollars.

You have used Wesfarmers as an example of a company investing and diversifying successfully, (which is counter to the advice you are giving by the way). Wesfarmers were originally a farmers co-operative fortunately for them someone in charge had the vision and belief in themselves and their ability to invest in other income streams and manage them, if they hadn’t Wesfarmers would still just be a farmers co-operative or quite possibly just a blip in Australian corporate history.

Or they could have had one singular focus and become the world leaders in that field, like Kodak.

Yes, I actually agree with all of that. I didn't realise we were a subsidiary of Adelaide Sports and Entertainment. I don't have much issue with that if the structures are good. Wesfarmers isn't counter to what I was suggesting, I was suggesting if we were going to be running multiple sporting clubs that we needed a parent company, with each subsidiary having it's own management team and purpose.

 

[ad victoriam]

That’s all well and good but doesn’t make us any money.

Maybe but there would be Tax concession, Also some money would be made selling the Product to other's to use,
They don't just do football, they do other forms of Media Productions for clients and other organizations.

 

[ManInTheArena]

You are Forgetting they have restructured to become two companies, The AFC and the Adelaide Sports & Entertainment company, which is running the Bite and Legacy along with the Media platform. (It the Media part of the Company that will make the money )
Looking from the Outside. it looks like either Smart working, and Shuttleworth maybe McArdle will looking after the ASE side reporting to Fagan, who reports to the Board. While they will still have involvement with the Football Departments they will still be separated.
While the other Football related groups will report to there heads ie Burton, Hilton, who then reports to Fagan.
Can see down the track one more Player (non Football) to be inserted in the Football Department area to run the whole operation. But at this time Fagan would not be anywhere near overworked. So he can run Both. There is also a big Advantage in the strength and diversity of our Board,

Very similar to several of the more successful Sports company that has expanded. and If fact a structure similar although on a lesser scale to Wesfarmers, Fagan just doing the Goyder role From 2005.

I didn't forget we had the Adelaide Sports and Entertainment company, because I didn't know it existed! I don't have much issue with the way that's structured then.

I'm not sure why it was announced as the AFC acquiring The Bite when it's not really.

 

[GreyCrow]

I'm not sure why it was announced as the AFC acquiring The Bite when it's not really.

Because a Parent Company scares the average Joe more than the AFC 'acquiring' all these properties

 

[ad victoriam]

I didn't forget we had the Adelaide Sports and Entertainment company, because I didn't know it existed! I don't have much issue with the way that's structured then.

I'm not sure why it was announced as the AFC acquiring The Bite when it's not really.

The media missed the announcement, Fagan and Chapman mention it but everyone was talking the Bite and bypass/missed any comments around the AS&E restructuring as a company that will be looking after the Bite Legacy and Media productions, leaving the Football to the Crows Football department. Pretty average reporting to be honest.

Not too sure but it Looks like Smart will head up the AS&E as he heavily involved with legacy already maybe with Shuttleworth in the mix as well. With Fagan wearing two caps, reporting to the board,
Be interesting to see what happen in the next couple of years,

 

[King Elvis]

Do the Bite turn a profit?

 

[brucetiki]

Do the Bite turn a profit?

I think they operate as a ‘not for profit’ club (similar to the Adrenaline in the AIHL).

 

[King Elvis]

Ok, but are they making any money?

Or will they drain cash from AFC?

 

[hey shorty]

Ok, but are they making any money?

Or will they drain cash from AFC?

This is the key.

It's a good idea in theory to diversify, and I could even handle it if it's a cash neutral venture as it does have benefits.

But if they lose money then that's an issue

 

[BunjiMac]

F@#k the bite, f#$k eSports.

These are a massive distraction and shows that the organisation is not untied behind a common purpose, of ruthlessly winning premierships.