Adelaide's decline

[Gavin Excell]

Statement game v Suns?

 

[1970crow]

View attachment 891881

****ing Douglas phoned that in.

 

[Bob Neil]

Most of us follow and love the footy (mainly) for the on-field stuff but I think the Crows are the quintessential case study for why a good front office matters and what happens if you don't have one.

From the top down it is a small-minded, self-aggrandising, jobs for the boys shit-show that has veered from tolerating staggering mediocrity to periodically picking a random scapegoat or two to appease the masses. There is simply no hard-nosed, intelligent (sorry Roo!), football operator running the joint and it shows.

And I say all this as a loyal supporter!

AFL is a tough comp at the best of times but given how we've squandered our endowments (big fish in a footy-mad, two-team state) and the size of the hole we've dug for ourselves both on and off the field it is going to be a long way back.

 

[1970crow]

We got absolutely belted in the midfield though. Has been happening for a season now. Crouch x 2 have absolutely no defensive accountability.

We are completely breaking down in the midfield. It means that our defence is under constant siege (they are actually our best line, they do a good job, they simply cannot sustain constant repeat I50s - no defence can).

Our forwards don't get a chance when our midfield cannot win the ball at the stoppage and won't contribute to rebounding from D50.


I'd say Fogarty is a player most people would agree has the potential to be good. We can debate on the others but it's true they aren't necessarily future superstars.

We also don’t have defenders that can run hard at goals and put pressure on opposing midfields. They’re all pedestrian, average to poor by foot and risk averse. That said, if I was slow and average by foot I probably wouldn’t be too keen to run with the ball either.

 

[iameviljez]

Riccuito making the comments he did is absolute amateur hour at it's finest and another in a loooong line of these from Adelaide FC. It is so unprofessional it's almost beyond laughable and reeks of sour grapes/sooking. It's right up there with the bizarre and poorly thought out presser that Pyke and Burton did; what the hell is even the point? Just makes the club look so bad.

That's the thing that gets me, too. How hard is it to come out and say, "Clearly we have had an issue with player retention over the last decade; Brisbane has shown that it is possible to reverse this trend in quick time. We're going to do what we can to find out why players left, re-build bridges, and make sure this doesn't happen again".

 

[bungalow_bill]

A lot of similar players.

I looked at the outs for season 2020 and thought most were lumbering slow types - nothing too bad.

Did they get enough speed and versatility on to the list? Not sure.

Charlie Cameron would be handy right now

 

[1970crow]

Thanks for proving my point.

You can't take criticism. Rucci has criticised Port countless times.

Enjoy a lack of accountability. Nothing will change

Rucci was very strong against your club during the Primus years. Made it very clear the club set Matty up to fail. My brethren obviously weren’t reading or listening back then.

 

[iameviljez]

From the top down it is a small-minded, self-aggrandising, jobs for the boys shit-show that has veered from tolerating staggering mediocrity to periodically picking a random scapegoat or two to appease the masses. There is simply no hard-nosed, intelligent (sorry Roo!), football operator running the joint and it shows.

Well worth checking out the Open Mike with Brian Cook if that's your thing.

To give you some measure of the guy - when Nan died last year, I sent the club a quick email saying that she'd been a seat holder at Kardinia Park for decades, very active in the Melbourne-based supporter group, etc etc, and would the club mind sending a quick card for the funeral?

I didn't expect a handwritten commiserations card signed by Brian Cook thanking us for Nan's commitment to footy club, but that's what we got.

 

[Papa G]

If Ricciuto wants to have a argument about paying people what they are worth, MMM should be paying him a quarter of what they do. He has a shocking voice and isn't very bright and not in the ha ha way. In fact he really shouldn't be in the media at all, just really bad at it.

 

[Freomaniac]

Interesting that you don't think that 2 first round picks and second round picks, who'd around 24 or 25 now, didn't/doesn't have much affect on the list. The club also got nothing for Tippett, who in reality at the time was probably worth a first and second round pick.

It also doesn't take into account trading Bernie Vince so we could get back into the draft, eventually taking Matt Crouch with that pick. Nor does it take into account picking up Greenwood and Keath as Cat B rookies, developing them for a number of years and then trading them last year for sfa, with the club unwilling to match their requests for contracts extensions for both length and payment.

Personally, I think this is a storm that's been brewing for the 8 or 9 years.

That is also true. If you had those 2 picks in 2012, that would of mean their 1st year is 2013 and considering if they were good enough, both would of been in their 8th year and might of been free agents this year considering its the year 2020 now.

I was Suprised that both Hugh Greenwood and Alex Keath were mature aged picks. I can understand why they tried to get a big money deal, especially Alex Keath. Alex Keath is already 28 years old and has 2-3 good years left.

then those 2 picks in 2013 draft would of had their 1st year in 2014 and would been 18-20 years old in 2013 would of been in their prime years of 25-27.

I found it Ironic with the Tippett Departure that also in that Same year in 2012, they brought in Free Agency. They also said the minimum years you can serve as a free agent is 8 years. I also agree in his 2009-2012 form, Kurt Tippett was easily worth a 1st and 2nd rounder due to 3 things.

1. He could play both as a ruck and a tall forward, but based on his crows years, he is worth more as a forward.

2. He was a proven quality player.

3. His age was only 24-25. About to his his prime years or about to anyway.

To me Kurt tippett is part of the reason why Free Agency should go down from 8 years to 6 or even possibly 5 years.

Had Kurt Tippett been an 8 year free agent in 2012, and considering where the crows finished in 2012, Crows would of got pick 16 in Compensation.

As for Bernie Vince, you can partially thank freo for that. Freo got Colin Sylvia as a free agent in 2013 and somehow he was worth pick 28. Demons traded that pick 28 to the crows for Bernie Vince.

 

[SaltPeter]

That is also true. If you had those 2 picks in 2012, that would of mean their 1st year is 2013 and considering if they were good enough, both would of been in their 8th year and might of been free agents this year considering its the year 2020 now.

I was Suprised that both Hugh Greenwood and Alex Keath were mature aged picks. I can understand why they tried to get a big money deal, especially Alex Keath. Alex Keath is already 28 years old and has 2-3 good years left.

then those 2 picks in 2013 draft would of had their 1st year in 2014 and would been 18-20 years old in 2013 would of been in their prime years of 25-27.

I found it Ironic with the Tippett Departure that also in that Same year in 2012, they brought in Free Agency. They also said the minimum years you can serve as a free agent is 8 years. I also agree in his 2009-2012 form, Kurt Tippett was easily worth a 1st and 2nd rounder due to 3 things.

1. He could play both as a ruck and a tall forward, but based on his crows years, he is worth more as a forward.

2. He was a proven quality player.

3. His age was only 24-25. About to his his prime years or about to anyway.

To me Kurt tippett is part of the reason why Free Agency should go down from 8 years to 6 or even possibly 5 years.

Had Kurt Tippett been an 8 year free agent in 2012, and considering where the crows finished in 2012, Crows would of got pick 16 in Compensation.

As for Bernie Vince, you can partially thank freo for that. Freo got Colin Sylvia as a free agent in 2013 and somehow he was worth pick 28. Demons traded that pick 28 to the crows for Bernie Vince.

It'd be interesting to have a look at all the teams and compare which players they drafted in those years and what their lists would like without them. Or even just the players taken at the picks Adelaide would've had.

I think the thing with the Vince trade (I thought pick 23 was used) is that the club probably could've kept Vince and still drafted Matt Crouch. Vince was about the only player who they were prepared to part with who had any currency.

Greenwood turned 28 about months ago, I think he's only a month or so younger than Keath. So both will be 32 going into the last year of their current contracts. From memory Adelaide were only prepared to offer 2 year extensions

 

[WillHayward]

Gibbs = massively over paid
Walker = over paid
Mackay = over paid
Smith = over paid
Talia = over paid
Sloane = over paid

 

[Atomboy]

That's the thing that gets me, too. How hard is it to come out and say, "Clearly we have had an issue with player retention over the last decade; Brisbane has shown that it is possible to reverse this trend in quick time. We're going to do what we can to find out why players left, re-build bridges, and make sure this doesn't happen again".

But how boring is it, it’s good to see someone speak their mind ?!.

The world is full of enough vapid and meaningless motherhood statements, it’s good to see Roo calling it as he sees it.

Don’t have an issue with it.

 

[TheKITC]

Go and have a look at the threads on the Crows board, actually staggering how many are supporting Riccuito over his recent comments. How is that even possible at this point? Speaks volumes.

Damien Barrett's article (I know, I know) is actually spot on, yet so many and still not only drinking the Kool Aid but skulling it and asking for more...

 

[SellarStardom]

Most supporters want the Chairman gone, Roo sidelined and Fagan held to account along with Reid.

But there is one thing about Roo's comments that is refreshing, actually talking about wages. The Players Association wield a large bat and now have a significant impact on the TV rights. They had to also take a cut during COVID. BUT in the industry, any talk of actual wages is for some reason forbidden and it's like mentioning the war. NBA, EPL you name the league, player transfers and contracts are not shrouded in secrecy.

The Players Association needs to deal with it, you wield a bat you need to be prepared for the fact that your contracts will not be kept secret.

If it was a Publicly Listed Company, you wouldn't be able to get away with the level of non-disclosure.

 

[DJ75]

Gibbs = massively over paid
Walker = over paid
Mackay = over paid
Smith = over paid
Talia = over paid
Sloane = over paid

The only one I disagree with is Talia. Almost never beaten. When you see the lack of effort from the midfield and see what he is up against, his record is exceptional.

 

[DJ75]

Go and have a look at the threads on the Crows board, actually staggering how many are supporting Riccuito over his recent comments. How is that even possible at this point? Speaks volumes.

Damien Barrett's article (I know, I know) is actually spot on, yet so many and still not only drinking the Kool Aid but skulling it and asking for more...

Feel free to have a look everyone. I think you will find many more want Roo gone.

Individually - he is probably right, especially in regards to Lever and McGovern. They aren't producing what their pay packet suggests they should.
BUT, he is also leaving much more out of the discussion - including the absolute sh!t show their list management has been. Over priced contracts to older, past their prime players, and under paying players coming up. Perfect situation to encourage clubs to poach those younger guys.

Roo is one of the main problems at the club - as well as appointing his mate Burton, he has also appointed his mate Justin Reid to the list manager position. Fair to say Roo does is not smart and is not someone you want making decisions.

 

[TheKITC]

Feel free to have a look everyone. I think you will find many more want Roo gone.

Individually - he is probably right, especially in regards to Lever and McGovern. They aren't producing what their pay packet suggests they should.
BUT, he is also leaving much more out of the discussion - including the absolute sh!t show their list management has been. Over priced contracts to older, past their prime players, and under paying players coming up. Perfect situation to encourage clubs to poach those younger guys.

Roo is one of the main problems at the club - as well as appointing his mate Burton, he has also appointed his mate Justin Reid to the list manager position. Fair to say Roo does is not smart and is not someone you want making decisions.

And I think you will find that it's far from the consensus you paint it to be... I've sighted at least 20 different posters today alone supprting Roo, that took me all of 5 mins. That tide has only recently turned regardless, this shit show from Roo is merely the tip of the iceberg. As I've said previously, the amount of lambasting and lampooning of Crows supporters who have been calling for change for sometime now is a big part of the problem. Even your post half leaves the door ajar for Riccuito's comments to be accepted/apologised for...

If it wasn't then (which it was) it is very clear now why the review didn't look into the 'upper management' side of things. The review was a sham and the people in charge/positions of power of that footy club almost need to universally go. If Roo makes it past the next week, the problems are even worse than I think they are. His position is no longer tenable.

 

[DJ75]

And I think you will find that it's far from the consensus you paint it to be... I've sighted at least 20 different posters today alone supprting Roo, that took me all of 5 mins. That tide has only recently turned regardless, this sh*t show from Roo is merely the tip of the iceberg. As I've said previously, the amount of lambasting and lampooning of Crows supporters who have been calling for change for sometime now is a big part of the problem. Even your post half leaves the door ajar for Riccuito's comments to be accepted/apologised for...

If it wasn't then (which it was) it is very clear now why the review didn't look into the 'upper management' side of things. The review was a sham and the people in charge/positions of power of that footy club almost need to universally go. If Roo makes it past the next week, the problems are even worse than I think they are. His position is no longer tenable.

You are picking and choosing what you want to read. Feel free to look at my post history - I have been super critical of the Crows for some time. In fact I can tell you I wrote to Fagan in 2018 begging him to start a review of the football department. I then had an extended phone call with him and discussed it (he assured me it wasn't required and everyone was going great). They finally did the review 12 months later.
When they did, I wrote again to Fagan and asked that they review the entire management of the club and the culture developed from the board down. I recommended an outstanding person to take this role. Again I had correspondence with Fagan about this, but was assured they reviewed every year and there was no need for it anyway.

There is nothing I have said in my post that 'half leaves the door ajar'. Roo is an idiot. His comments were stupid at best. Roo and Chapman have led a culture of self preservation (which is what the comments are really about - he is just trying to justify his poor decisions), to the detriment of the club as a whole.

As on this thread alone, there are some, from the wider BigFooty community, who are glad to hear more open discussion about football issues. The same is true within the Crows board, but most, regardless of whether they think it is ok to make such statements, still want Roo gone.

I make no judgement on that (I couldn't care less about it). I'm commenting on the stupidity of his comments and on how they are simply to try and justify his own failings.

Whilst I mainly agree with you in terms of the tip of the ice-berg, I think you will find that between Roo and Chapman, they are most of the iceberg.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Most supporters want the Chairman gone, Roo sidelined and Fagan held to account along with Reid.

But there is one thing about Roo's comments that is refreshing, actually talking about wages. The Players Association wield a large bat and now have a significant impact on the TV rights. They had to also take a cut during COVID. BUT in the industry, any talk of actual wages is for some reason forbidden and it's like mentioning the war. NBA, EPL you name the league, player transfers and contracts are not shrouded in secrecy.

The Players Association needs to deal with it, you wield a bat you need to be prepared for the fact that your contracts will not be kept secret.

If it was a Publicly Listed Company, you wouldn't be able to get away with the level of non-disclosure.

Is Riccuito gonna follow up by revealing his own wages? Or maybe Tex Walker's wage, or Bryce Gibbs?

Or is he only comfortable maliciously revealing the wages of people who he perceives to have wronged him?

 

[TheKITC]

You are picking and choosing what you want to read. Feel free to look at my post history - I have been super critical of the Crows for some time. In fact I can tell you I wrote to Fagan in 2018 begging him to start a review of the football department. I then had an extended phone call with him and discussed it (he assured me it wasn't required and everyone was going great). They finally did the review 12 months later.
When they did, I wrote again to Fagan and asked that they review the entire management of the club and the culture developed from the board down. I recommended an outstanding person to take this role. Again I had correspondence with Fagan about this, but was assured they reviewed every year and there was no need for it anyway.

There is nothing I have said in my post that 'half leaves the door ajar'. Roo is an idiot. His comments were stupid at best. Roo and Chapman have led a culture of self preservation (which is what the comments are really about - he is just trying to justify his poor decisions), to the detriment of the club as a whole.

As on this thread alone, there are some, from the wider BigFooty community, who are glad to hear more open discussion about football issues. The same is true within the Crows board, but most, regardless of whether they think it is ok to make such statements, still want Roo gone.

I make no judgement on that (I couldn't care less about it). I'm commenting on the stupidity of his comments and on how they are simply to try and justify his own failings.

Whilst I mainly agree with you in terms of the tip of the ice-berg, I think you will find that between Roo and Chapman, they are most of the iceberg.

I'm not talking about you specifically, I think it's obvious we think pretty similarly on the situation. You said "many more want Roo gone" which simply does not seem to be the case. My point is there are a significant amount of club apologists defending Roo and have defended the club to the death for a very long period of time, in the face of some of the most diabolical management I've seen. It's like the Essendon doping saga and their fans all over again, albeit differing circumstances. It is not the consensus you paint it to be, the pendulum has probably swung but not even close to where it should be in terms of fan/member outrage and disgreement. I think this a big problem for the AFC that their fans seem hell bent on letting them off the hook all the time... I've been reading it for years and shaking my head.

What I meant by you half leaving the door ajar is that you have said "he is probably right". That is firstly debatable because everyone knows there is more to a contract and a recruitment than in x year, y player is paid z so should perform to this level or that, it's far too simplistic a view. It is disingenuous to suggest that Roo is correct in his assessments in a general basis, as he is speaking on behalf of other clubs that he has no insight on or right to do. The man can barely perform his own role (putting it mildly) let alone comment on others. Secondly, it could be misconstrued as letting him off the hook by sugeesting what he did had some grounding in merit or the truth. He is continuing to deflect the blame away from extreme incompetence that he has played a strong role in, the rest is just fluff. That's what I meant...

 

[1970crow]

Lever 800-850k

McGovern over 800k

Keath getting over double the cash at the dogs compared to his crows deal

And they had a full salary cap no wonder crouch thinks he’s worth a million Jesus Tex must be on 1.5

How would Keath’s value not have doubled after 2019? We pay based upon tenure. Then there’s our footy dept, we must have more staff behind the scenes than every other club because the money sure isn’t being spent on the guys that we see.

 

[WHOME]

0-17 what rubbish, will not happen

0-17 is very much on the cards, someone will probably fall over somewhere through.

None of it its Nicks fault. He's been set up to fail with the cheapest/worst assistant coaches in the AFL. Crows fell off the cliff halfway through last year when the players checked out. Drafting was good up until around 2016, our talent is well below the competition average now. Senior players have all regressed.

On SM-G965F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[1970crow]

Riccuito making the comments he did is absolute amateur hour at it's finest and another in a loooong line of these from Adelaide FC. It is so unprofessional it's almost beyond laughable and reeks of sour grapes/sooking. It's right up there with the bizarre and poorly thought out presser that Pyke and Burton did; what the hell is even the point? Just makes the club look so bad.

Riccuito seems like the kind of guy who thinks whacking back at every negative thing said about the Crows makes them come across as 'winners', a bit like posters on BF who won't let an argument go because they don't want to be seen to be 'losing'. It makes them look stupid, plain and simple.

The Crows 100% did not need this from an optics and media image POV. They have a horrid track record in the media and their public image is almost 0 at this point. Roo needs to go, don't see what value he is providing the club... at all.



Which players were used in that argument that you 'cleared out'? I see a lot of Crows supporters use this as 'nah we wanted them out, was our choice' as a way of exonerating the club from a culture point of view. Genuinely asking, not having a dig about which players fit into this category?

Lever - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
McGovern - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
Dangerfield - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
Gunston - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
Cameron - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
Keath - Required player, they would have wanted to keep
Betts - Debatable, but there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he wanted out...Because it might fit in with their sudden rebuild doesn't excuse culture issues
Jacobs - Debatable, he's been pretty quiet and may have wanted out more for opportunity factors
Greenwood - Debatable, he's been pretty quiet and may have wanted out more for opportunity/money factors. Was best 25 easily.
edit: Ellis-Yolman - Seemed required (25 games in two seasons) albeit fringe-ish and injury prone, 100% wanted out and criticised the club on the way out in terms of culture

When you look at players they actually did clear out like Henderson and Lyons (big mistakes), it paints a pretty bleak picture.

His form in discussing players contracts and form is simply unacceptable, there's no way around that for mine. Trying to use the 'more money' line actually paints Adelaide in a far worse light than he probably thinks; especially when you look at the players they have kept and using Walker as an example of someone who would have had to leave as if it's some glowing proof they did the right thing is just embarrassing. Roo is totally deluded and has a few mates at the club I reckon...

I don't think Adelaide have copped a raw deal at all from a criticism POV. They have had a diabolical past few years which was made even worse by all the attempted cover ups, denials and flat out lies. I'd be interested to hear what subjects you think that have got a raw deal on given the above...

Lyons wanted to stay but we gave Thommo an extra year to play SANFL. Delisted Henderson purely because we’d over-contracted Spud Mackay.

 

[BigDogShannan]

*incoming excuses and club apologists*

Adelaide, as a football club, only have themselves to blame for the period I and many perceive they are about to enter. So many bad decisions, excuses, cover ups, denials and errors have been made. Only an idiot would deny that they have occurred, yet so many supporters do and the club has played them down or ignored them from a management level the entire time, review included.

Adelaide are finally on the decline and rightfully so considering how many good players have either been poached from or left ( Go home factor) , compared to Carlton, a club with cash to burn chasing free agent player after free agent player and whom bottomed out so hard that continue to stink no matter how many top 10 draft pick flops they get....