Play Nice Admin, Finance, Members, Ratings, Crowds, Policies - Please refer to each sports own boards

[Borussia Teeth]

My issue is the boss of a locally minor sport making a ludicrous claim and then the same sports fan boys embarrassingly defending it.

Revenue ultimately reflects a game's popularity. The afl's is so massive because of its 7milllion odd attendees, 900,000 members, and enormous television ratings. The ffa's is modest accordingly. One soccer game of any type has achieved ratings higher than the afl average (ie over 400 games) in the 2 years since the Asia cup. Popularity

Participation reflects the number of people who play a sport. I'm a soccer participant. Soccer has relatively far more registered players than American football in the us and yet the NFL is the biggest football league on the planet. Popularity.

Gallop can make whatever stupid claim he wants and invent any fanciful criteria to support it....it doesn't make it any less contemptuous or prevent subjecting him and his game to ridicule when it all starts falling apart again!

OK, we've pretty much moved on from this topic but I just wanted to say thanks for the reply. You've made your points pretty clearly.
As a general point within this thread, it's important to be clear about comparing sports with sports, or leagues with leagues. You've been pretty consistent about saying AFL is bigger and more popular than A-league, which is fair enough. I think extending that to Australian football versus soccer is much more difficult to do. A lot of confusion and angst arises when a league is compared with a sport. For example your statement above (bolded) reads to me as comparing a sport (soccer) with a league (NFL). Anyway I'm not really looking for an argument here, just wanted to follow up with a couple of additional points.

 

[The_Wookie]

Bolded above. To me, that headline and quote is a media soundbite to gain attention, not something anyone should literally or seriously. So why get worked up about it? Laugh it off. No need for ridicule or hostility.

Not to be too pointed on this, but whenever the Blues say they are going to win a flag they are rightly ridculed when they dont even get close. The same thing applies here. Dont make grandiose public statements. They may come back to bite you in the arse.

 

[The_Wookie]

NRL

• Melbourne v Brisbane at Aami Park – Crowd TBA (16,334 being reported on the League Unlimited forums)
• Australian rugby league team Wests Tigers have agreed a major sponsorship deal with CrownBet. The bookmaker’s logo will appear on the upper back of the Sydney-based National Rugby League (NRL) team’s playing jerseys in 2017.

AFL

• The Courier Mail reports that THE LIONS are set to emerge victorious from The Gabba turf war, avoiding a million dollar brawl between football and Stadiums Queensland. Also of note: Brisbane wants it current rental agreement of about $35,000 per game to be discounted.
• Six AFL players earned more than $1 million in 2016 as average salary increased.
• The Age reports that In a year where average player salaries grew to $309,208 and the total wage bill for the 718 players was $204.3 million, the number of players who went past the magical million-dollar mark was the highest for four years.
• AFL chief Gillon McLachlan says there is no obstacle to a twilight Grand Final.
• It is understood the WA AFL clubs were close to signing a heads of agreement with venue operator Venues Live before the State government went into election caretaker mode. However, an impasse between the WA Football Commission and the State government meant the two clubs could not commit to playing at the $1.3 billion stadium in Burswood. It rejected a compensation package of more than $100 million over 10 years to surrender its lease on Subiaco Oval. The parties also disagreed on where the WAFC would be housed if it surrendered the lease. Despite the sticking points, Mr Goyder is convinced the Eagles and Dockers would play home games at Perth Stadium for next year’s AFL season.
• Foxtel has taken footy fans behind the scenes of the Fox Footy channel offices to launch the start of their coverage of the upcoming AFL season.
• The Western Bulldogs have announced that People’s Choice Credit Union has signed on as a new Platinum Partner. Among other advertising activity, People’s Choice’s distinctive lime green and red logo will feature on the media backdrops of pre and post game interviews, and in the change rooms of the Bulldogs.
• Construction software developer Progressclaim.com has expanded its sponsorship deal with Australian rules football team Richmond Tigers. The company’s logo will now appear on the back of the Tigers’ matchday jerseys in the Victoria Football League (VFL), as well as on coaches’ polo shirts.
• The AFL’s respected head of partnerships, Blair Crouch, will step down at the end of the month to take up a senior commercial role with Moonee Valley Racing Club.
• The AFL have launched their 2017 AFL ad campaign which stars none other than Thor himself Chris Hemsworth.

Local Footy

• WEST Footscray president Steve Lane has offered a grim forecast for struggling Western Region Football League clubs, declaring he expects more to succumb to financial pressures in coming years. Glen Orden will not take to the field in 2017, while Parkside and the Roosters have confronted similar issues in the past two years.

A-league

• SOCCER’S record TV deal isn’t actually worth $346 million at all, with consultancy fees, contra and other performance-related bonuses eating away at the base value of the contract. A Herald Sun investigation has found that the true cash value of the deal currently stands at less than $300m. FFA also owes $500,000 of that figure to consultants whose brief was to bring as many bidding parties as it could to the table. (In the end, Fox Sports was the only bidder.) $5m of the deal hinges on A-League expansion. A total of $10 million is allocated to marketing and $18 million to the marquee fund. There is about $16.5 million in total hinging on “bonuses” — expansion included — while $36 million is contra, which brings its real value thus far to about $267 million. There is also a $4m buyback option for Fox Sports if FFA can’t sell the Saturday night free-to-air rights by June 30. If not taken up, the rights would then be Fox’s to onsell.
• The FFA is fighting to keep lid on reform as demands come from all quarters for a say in running of the game
• The FFA won’t force Sydney FC to move A-League grand final from Allianz to ANZ Stadium

Super Rugby

• The Courier Mail notes that IT is ludicrous that the ACT Brumbies have been dragged into the numbing chatter about Super Rugby’s chop-and-change for a better future. The Brumbies have won two titles, set trends with their playing style, been the launching pad for Test coaches and moulded more than 50 players for the Wallabies.
• BRUMBIES legend Stephen Larkham has hit back at suggestions of a Super Rugby merger with the Melbourne Rebels, saying the club will only ever play out of Canberra.
• Georgina Robinson reports that An 18-team Super Rugby should never have gone ahead and needs to be blown up and rebuilt – on Australia’s terms.

 

[Gigantor]

That ain't really news in relation to the A-League's TV deal, it was obvious from day one that the true value of the deal had been exaggerated to buggery.

 

[Hawkers]

Agree with most of this except not sure I share your optimism about footy being top dog in Canberra. GWS only play 3 home games and granted they will probably all sell out this year. The raiders draw lots of support from Queanbeyan and surrounding areas in NSW.

If the brumbies can't make it in Canberra I doubt an a-league side can so if the brumbies fold, I can't see the ACT building a brand new stadium just for the raiders.

I can see Manuka being eventually upgraded to about 20k if the Giants keep pulling them in and that would be a very good thing IMO.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

It isn't top dog but there is more support here for football than most realise. Canberra still has a very strong football scene, it's just been 'Canberised'. A melding of Melbourne influences in the 60's and 70's and of Sydney influences with the Rugby codes from the late 80's and 90's.
So football is popular here but it's latent.

On the new stadium being proposed, it would be good to do it but totally unnecessary. I don't think the government would survive if they had to spend money on it, they had a hard time getting the tram up and running. The government also is broke. If the various codes put money into it to get it built it might have a chance but when has any Rugby code or soccer built or contributed to their stadiums. I don't see that happening now.

Manuka Oval upgrade would have been good, the Giants put an unsolicited proposal in not long ago to do it but the nimbys around the oval had a sook. There are still plans knocking about to gradually increase capacity but it's not going to happen for a long time

 

[Garlic muncher]

It isn't top dog but there is more support here for football than most realise. Canberra still has a very strong football scene, it's just been 'Canberised'. A melding of Melbourne influences in the 60's and 70's and of Sydney influences with the Rugby codes from the late 80's and 90's.
So football is popular here but it's latent.

On the new stadium being proposed, it would be good to do it but totally unnecessary. I don't think the government would survive if they had to spend money on it, they had a hard time getting the tram up and running. The government also is broke. If the various codes put money into it to get it built it might have a chance but when has any Rugby code or soccer built or contributed to their stadiums. I don't see that happening now.

Manuka Oval upgrade would have been good, the Giants put an unsolicited proposal in not long ago to do it but the nimbys around the oval had a sook. There are still plans knocking about to gradually increase capacity but it's not going to happen for a long time

Here is my take on footy in Canberra V Rugby League.

Quite telling stats - 2016


27 mens senior RL teams across Canberra district RL ( first, reserves and George tooke ) 14 senior mens teams are from outside Canberra. ( more than 50%)

33 mens senior AF teams across 4 divisions in AFL Canberra, 8 teams from outside Canberra, ( 2 from Batemans bay, Cootamundra, Yass, Goulburn, Cooma, 2 from QBYan) ( less than 25%)

In Canberra itself working on those stats footy is pretty popular or on par with RL, the stats on where the junior teams are from pretty much represent the same picture as the adult teams.

FME of living in Canberra all 3 codes, footy, RL and RU are all reasonably popular, but IMO if Canberra were to have an AFL team then that team would be the most popular.

 

[Our Game]

Looked like a very poor crowd at the Rebels Super Rugby match at AAMI tonight lucky to be 5000

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[Freomaniac]

2017 estimated total revenue (inc clubs)

Afl ~$1.5billion
Ffa ~$150 million

What, pray, is a credible timeframe for such a claim? Might it be measured in years or in uranium half life?

wait.... FFA made $150 million in 2017? That's very good money for the FFA

 

[Freomaniac]

Lack of a Super Rugby deal on FTA, expanding the size of the competition and the lack of success from the Wallabies.

Super Rugby grew too fast for its own good and spread the playing stocks too thin which meant the offering went downhill and people turned away. The fact they signed the likes of Wendell Sailor at the same time they were bailing out the NSWRU meant they had to cut back on their advertising spend and their junior development.

Fancy that... That was a similar mistake the A-league made around 2010-2012. A-league had decent numbers from 2005-8. From 2006-13 the A-league rights was around 19 million a year. Back in the 2008-9 season, The A-league only had 8 teams and the Salary cap was 2 million or 16 million for the 8 clubs. That made the league sustainable.

Next season in 2009-10 A-league expanded to 10 teams. The Salary cap was 2.25 million per club or $22,500,000 for all 10 clubs with only 19 million in t rights deal money coming in. That made the League unsustainable at the time.

Then Melbourne city came into bring it to 11 sides the next season. North Queensland fury left at the end of the 2010-11 season to bring it back down to 10 sides. Gold Coast united folded left in the 2011-12 season after only averaging 3,000 people to the game. Then they were replaced by the western Sydney wanderers who averaged 12,000 people a game in their 1st season in 2012-3.

Then the New tv deal came in and it was a 40 million a year deal from 2013-17. The Salary cap for that 1st season of the new deal was 2.4 million or 24 million for all 10 clubs. That meant the FFA had a spare 16 million in that 2013-4 season. The FFA has run the A-league in a financially safe position ever since.

To be honest... I wanted a weekly Free to air game on super rugby ever since Melbourne rebels came in 2011. Theres 5 Aussie sides in that league and no FTA games were shown.

I am also surprised that the ARU are in a dire financial situation despite signing a 5 year deal back in 2015 that is worth 55 million a year for that 2016-2020 period.

I agree with the sentiment expressed above that both the ARU, and the rugby community more generally, were never able to move past the state representative model (from whence we originally get the tahs and reds) to a true club model.

In fact, many in the rugby community complained about the name "Melbourne Rebels". Why? Because they just couldn't get past the idea of an actual club being established, as opposed to a provincial/state rep team (in NZ, the Super Rugby teams still align with a very old provincial model).

Super rugby, in Australia, was not able to develop that club following mentality, which, above all, demands games between Australian clubs.

We see it in the soccer, and we see it in the Super Rugby, Australians want to see games between Australian sides, they don't give a damn about teams who might come from goodness knows where (and that's another problem with Super Rugby in Australia, the casual supporter had no idea where some of the clubs actually came from: the Lions? the 'canes? the Blues?)

There lies the problem. For all the faults of the A-league, Its an adequate league that moderates many things. It has a salary cap like all Aussie sports. There is a quota on overseas players. A-league has a maximum squad of 25 players. Up to 5 can overseas imports. Plus the travelling is a hazard as well. Imagine watching the waratahs taking on a South African team in south Africa at 3am in the morning?

I have said it before and I will say it again... ARU shuld break away from that comp and form their own National comp. Either expand to 6 teams and each side play each other3 times in a 15 round comp or expand to 8 teams and let each side play each other twice and make it a 14 round comp.

To add to that, to answer a question asked above: will the Brumbies fans fight any form of merger/move to Melbourne?

My honest opinion: don't expect to see some sort of Footscrayesque fight-back circa 1989.

I don't base that on a lot, just a gut feel that you aren't going to get that sort of militancy from your average public servant, most of whom come from somewhere else in any event. You might get some high ranking public servant lobbying behind closed doors, but you won't get street marches and the like.

As an indicator, with the rumours already flying thick and fast about the future of the Brumbies, only 8,000 fans turned up to their last home game - not really the sign of a fan base that will fight tooth and nail to save the club (unfortunately).

Personally, I'm still hopeful that the five SR clubs will remain, I really think rugby needs it, even if it's an upward battle, but if the powers that be put the Brumbies' name forward, that will be it, the fan base won't fight it in the manner we've seen with various AFL clubs in the past.

Again.... It would be stupid to get rid of the brumbies, especially with their history.

 

[The_Wookie]

wait.... FFA made $150 million in 2017? That's very good money for the FFA

Without clubs

2016 - FFA $103 million
2016 - AFL $569 million
2016 - NRL $365 million

Given the Victory pull in about 18 million a year, h'es suggesting that the other 9 clubs only pull in 35 million. If you take out the FFA distribution from their revenues, he might even be right.

 

[Gigantor]

Without clubs

2016 - FFA $103 million
2016 - AFL $569 million
2016 - NRL $365 million

Given the Victory pull in about 18 million a year, h'es suggesting that the other 9 clubs only pull in 35 million. If you take out the FFA distribution from their revenues, he might even be right.

The clubs get an annual dividend of some $2.5 million, the equivalent of the salary cap.

There might be 2 or 3 clubs earning around $6.5 mill per annum, but I'd expect another 3 or 4 clubs to be around the $8 mill to $9 mill range (inclusive of the annual dividend).

Throw in the Victory, allow for one club to be around the $10 mill range, fill in some gaps, and I think the annual combined net income of the clubs (netting off the annual dividend) would be in the range of $60 mill to $65 mill (my best guestimate).

So that might be $170 mill in A-League income as a best case scenario (FFA and clubs combined, eliminating internal transfers), while I'm guessing the total AFL income (clubs included, eliminating internal transfers), must have reached, or is about to reach, at least $1.4 billion.

It certainly represents a bit of an abyss when viewed in such terms. You wonder why Gallop would make some of his stupid pronouncements when presented with such figures, and more worringly, why so many soccer fans hang off his very word.

 

[Gigantor]

To add to the above, more than half the clubs are losing an average of $2 mill per annum, on annual revenue ranging from around $7 mill to $10 mill (Victory turn a healthy profit most seasons, WSW are pretty close to break-even).

The clubs are wanting to bump the annual dividend to $6 mill, which is impossible.

A bump to $4.5 million would allow most clubs to break even, but that's on current costs and a salary cap of $2.5 mill.

If that salary cap is about to jump another $750k or so, as has been mentioned, then even with the bigger annual dividend, most clubs will immediately be back into a loss making position, albeit slightly less than the current $2 mill per annum, which is progress.

 

[Freomaniac]

To add to the above, more than half the clubs are losing an average of $2 mill per annum, on annual revenue ranging from around $7 mill to $10 mill (Victory turn a healthy profit most seasons, WSW are pretty close to break-even).

The clubs are wanting to bump the annual dividend to $6 mill, which is impossible.

A bump to $4.5 million would allow most clubs to break even, but that's on current costs and a salary cap of $2.5 mill.

If that salary cap is about to jump another $750k or so, as has been mentioned, then even with the bigger annual dividend, most clubs will immediately be back into a loss making position, albeit slightly less than the current $2 mill per annum, which is progress.

Made me laugh that Greg Griffin, the chairman of Adelaide United wanted 6 million from the FFA. Still... Adelaide united should be breaking even this year. Like all A-league clubs, Adelaide are given 2.6 million for the salary cap. You have to use at least 90% of that money. The club has been averaging home crowds of around 10,000 a game. They also would of made some money selling players in the off season too after winning the championship

 

[Freomaniac]

Without clubs

2016 - FFA $103 million
2016 - AFL $569 million
2016 - NRL $365 million

Given the Victory pull in about 18 million a year, he's suggesting that the other 9 clubs only pull in 35 million. If you take out the FFA distribution from their revenues, he might even be right.

I am curious on How the FFA/A-league/Socceroos pulled that 150 million in the 2016-17 season. Ok 1st off was the final year of the current tv deal at 40 million a year.

Average attendance is still above 12,500 a game. Assuming the average ticket is $25 a game. So that's 12,500 x $25 = $312,500.

5 games at $312,500 = $1,562,500 a round

times 27 rounds at $1,562,500= $42,187,500 for the 27 rounds in total without including finals.

So there's just over 80 million so far. 40 mil in TV rights, 40 mil in ticket sales. Merchandise money varies too. I am curious how that reaches to 100-150 million. No way would the FFA bring 70 million in Sponsorships. 20 million maybe which is realistic to bring that to 100 million a year.

 

[Gigantor]

Each club would average sponsorship revenue of at least $3 mill, that's an additional $30 mill, and the governing body must have A-League related sponsorship revenue of at least $5 mill (naming rights).

You have merchandising income, adding up to the millions.

The FFA makes a fair bit out of the five finals games, about $10 mill in total.

Some government money might be coming in as well.

Some game day revenue is earned via hospitality, premium membership packages, etc.

Special events, like these big international games, must bring in a few million.

 

[Freomaniac]

Each club would average sponsorship revenue of at least $3 mill, that's an additional $30 mill, and the governing body must have A-League related sponsorship revenue of at least $5 mill (naming rights).

You have merchandising income, adding up to the millions.

The FFA makes a fair bit out of the five finals games, about $10 mill in total.

Some government money might be coming in as well.

Some game day revenue is earned via hospitality, premium membership packages, etc.

Special events, like these big international games, must bring in a few million.

Well the FFA would of made $2.5 million in the last grand final as there were 50,119 at the game paying $50 each and I was one of them.

Would find it good if Sydney FC host the grand final at ANZ.

 

[The_Wookie]

I am curious on How the FFA/A-league/Socceroos pulled that 150 million in the 2016-17 season. Ok 1st off was the final year of the current tv deal at 40 million a year.

They didnt. The last annual report - 2016 - puts the figure at 103 million.

 

[mighty tiges]

I wonder if clubs who actually play Australian Football can join this new association .

Association of Australian Football Clubs formed to represent interests of National Premier League clubs.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/footbal...s/news-story/c5da6aea985f75b32011e7efd2de591b

 

[RodneyMaynard]

Have a horrible feeling that the battle for crowds on the GC in 2017 will be a case of "which team's crowds fall less"

 

[bombersfan4000]

Have a horrible feeling that the battle for crowds on the GC in 2017 will be a case of "which team's crowds fall less"

It will be the case! SE Qld in general including Brisbane & the GC are band wagon cities, we have seen this in League, AFL & A league, the local team gets on a winning streak and the crowds come, once the winning streak ends the crowds fall away.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[AliceCat]

Almost 8k at Spotless??

What is it with the show grounds and creative counting??!

 

[Colonial]

Almost 8k at Spotless??

What is it with the show grounds and creative counting??!

Any proof?

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