Autopsy Aerobic or Explosive

[Tazwegian]

You gotta use those 'inspector gadget' arms down back. Get the boy on the protein shakes and he'll be a walk -up start.

Force the kid to eat a cow a day over the preseason.

 

[King of Ruin]

Force the kid to eat a cow a day over the preseason.

BEEEEEEFCAAAAAKE

 

[goreds]

Has it become racist to post that Mexican tortilla girl?

Then who will set Walker up for another screamer?

Robinson isn't as silky as Yarran, Murphy and Gibbs, yet his kicking seems to gets a bum rap from you. Reminds me of the knocks on Walker being a hack who can't kick.

We all have jobs in life, Robbo's is to see ball get ball give ball...

Everyone else in the side knows this, hopefully Mick can show him 'the path'...

Nothing wrong with Robbo's kicking when he is running with the ball but when in a pack he must realise that the 1st option is always the best, not a quick kick 100m in the air in the general direction of the goals...

 

[Tazwegian]

Nothing wrong with Robbo's kicking when he is running with the ball but when in a pack he must realise that the 1st option is always the best, not a quick kick 100m in the air in the general direction of the goals...

I actually reckon his quick kicks into the forward line are valuable most of the time. Getting the ball quickly into the 50, instead of over finessing, often gives your forwards a good chance. Not a bad strategy when you have a few big guys down forward who can either take a mark or get the ball to ground to feed the likes of Betts and Garlett. Judd is another one who often won't stuff around with the ball in a contested situation too much. He just gets it forward asap, unless there is a clear cut option.

 

[Tazwegian]

The kicks would make more sense if Cloke was down there, but rather pointless them falling onto the head of Betts.

Waite, Walker, and Casbolt all can play the role of either marking or getting the ball to ground. I like the Carlton forward line, when all the players are available. I can remember quite a lot of Robinson's long kicks into the forward line being pretty effective and resulting in goals. It's not going to happen 100% of the time, and I agree, when a clear option is around, he could definitely do worse than to give off to any of the guys you mentioned, but his long kicking isn't much of a concern for me because it does pay off. The longer you stuff around with the ball in the midfield, the easier it is for teams to get their numbers back, which means your kicking has to be precise or it will be rebounded out pretty quickly.

 

[Silvagnis]

We all have jobs in life, Robbo's is to see ball get ball give ball...

Everyone else in the side knows this, hopefully Mick can show him 'the path'...

Nothing wrong with Robbo's kicking when he is running with the ball but when in a pack he must realise that the 1st option is always the best, not a quick kick 100m in the air in the general direction of the goals...

Stand by my call that you're harsh with Robinson a better kick than you give credit for. Armfield, Collins and possibly Garlett are the players who might come under the pump for their clangers you've referred to. Unlike the ex who went to Richmond, Robinson has learnt to lower his eyes and not just blaze away. This pass off one step to Armfield was a beauty that went over the back of Norf's defenders...

http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...eventType=in50Mark&seek=228&videoQuality=high

Wonder how many times Robinson bombed it forward last year because we didn't have a tall target forward and any runners.

I love our forward line when all our players are available as we're very hard to match up on for speed and smarts.

It's like anything, when it comes off it looks good but when it doesn't you have a problem going back the other way.

Malthouse likes accountable and percentage football, so at best guess the Robbo rain-maker may not be so admired any more.

Yet Malthouse admires Dane Swan and Dale Thomas aren't classical field kicks in anyone's language.

Hope Mick gets the best out of Lucas who is aerobic and explosive like Walker. Hope Lucas becomes as competitive as the following play where he tackled, fended off Grima and showed good vision to find Murphy running past.

http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...ventType=in50Mark&seek=3657&videoQuality=high

Nice shepherd by Jeffy.

 

[zeeCFC]

I'm comfortable when Robbo is kicking the ball. I've watched our match against Essendon late this year a few times and there's one kick that still brings a smile to my face. Robbo is about 70metres out on the wing, in congestion, Judd asking for the ball next to him, and he bullets a pass through the Essendon defense to Jeffy in the square.

http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...02&eventType=Goal&seek=2363&videoQuality=high

Pre draft he had a pretty even outside and inside game and his long bombs wouldn't be as bad to see if we actually had a forward line at times.

He's a great mark and link man too, which is why I like him purely in the midfield.

 

[gbatman]

Recruit strong powerful types with a good build and build their aerobic capacity through training. I think you can get burnt targeting the teenagers with the light runners build with excellent endurance. Best to draft natural footballers and players who are strong, powerful in all aspects and have a good build and turn them into athletes rather than trying to turn athletes (runners) into footballers. I think this year's Brownlow medalist is a prime example of this.

 

[toomuchsparetime]

there is obviously another element to the explosive vs endurance debate, which for want of a better term i'll call 'game sense': where some players sum up the situation more quickly or better than others.

i'd say marc murphy is probably one of the best in the comp in this area. in almost any match, you can see him receive the ball, put in a quick step or two to create space in congestion, then you'll often see him slow down (often in a shuffle of small steps) in order to maintain the space he has created. what he has also created is time. time to scan the options. this has the added benefit of giving players down field the opportunity to create new options that didn't previously exist... eg: work into open space. Murphy seems to use the time and space he creates to read the play and this dictates how he disposes of the ball, eg: kick long to contest, loop the ball into space, handball to a player running past, etc...

to my way of thinking these 'footy smarts' are real game breakers. yes, 'structures' (or whatever we want to call them) are great and facilitate the 22 players to play as a team with a common focus or strategy, but unless a game can be broken open with creative ball use structures can be too easy to predict and therefore defend.

good game sense

murphy
judd (does it in heavy congestion)
gibbs (rarely wastes an opportunity)
scotland (quarteback style)
betts (always has his eyes peeled)
mclean (getting quicker with his decision making which is making him more damaging)
waite (great mark and looks inside for options)
walker (latter half of 2012 was really damaging with his inside 50 delivery)

developing game sense

carrazzo (creates time and space but often kicks long to a contest)
simpson (usually reliable link-up in congestion without necsessarily being creative)
yarran (still learning how to use his pace to best advantage)
robinson (starting to add this to his throw it on the boot approach)
collins (just needs to work on the quality of his disposal)
watson (when already in space scans the field for options off halfback)
garlett (got the sense but too often shanks the disposal)

disclaimer: game sense analysis is an inexact science

 

[mike ockerts]

It's interesting to think how Ratts game plan would have stacked up with the rule changes that look likely to come in.

 

[gbatman]

The things to consider is this. Look at this years (and other years) grand finalists and particularly the medalist from this years game and look at their midfields and what type of athletes are commonly found in those midfields. Very powerful strong individuals who can take and dish out a very physical approach to the game. It is also clear that neither team has gone hell bent on drafting super quick athlete types. Just good naturally talented footballers who are strongly built powerful/strong athletes. Good teams play successful football in a minimul space style of game unlike us who struggle to function without space. I can't say that we have chased that sort of player and I can't say that our players have trained in a way to become that sort of player. Our players turned up to this season lighter and with no progress in the bulk and strength side of things. We have drafted lightly built athletes when drafting midfielders which hasn't helped out situation.

The other thing to consider is that endurance is something that can be built up in just about any footballer and it naturally progresses in players over a number of seasons/preseasons. If I was looking for midfielders I would be considering a few things such as how they are built, how well the move in a confined space (agility), how they cope with being tackled and taking physical pressure (are they easily brought down or can they get good handballs away while being tackled), skill and use of the ball, how well they tackle, how they go with their body work off the ball around stoppages (whether they get pushed around or do the pushing around). Their aggression and attack on the ball is fairly important too along with reading the ball out of the ruck.

I wouldn't be over obsessed with possession numbers and how they test in their running tests as you look to improve these things when they are at the club. I'd be happy to draft a guy who may not necessairly get it a lot or test well, who rarely gets beaten in a contest and often wins it when it comes his way, who has good skills, is strongly built, who tackles well, who stands up in tackles and dishes off good handballs under physical pressure, who competes well and can break a weak tackle rather than drafting running machines who carry the ball a lot and get noticed most because of it. This is the sort of player who you can train hard and improve their running and that will improve their possession numbers and this is the sort of player you can build a team with and win premierships with.

 

[Silvagnis]

http://www.smartreplay.afl.com.au/?...02&eventType=Goal&seek=2363&videoQuality=high

A Juddy-type kick and play after Mitch contested, backed up and placed the ball over the back of the pack to set up a goal.

 

[zeeCFC]

It's nice when player who have both attributes become that tiny bit more polished

 

[Beer n Skittles]

The things to consider is this. Look at this years (and other years) grand finalists and particularly the medalist from this years game and look at their midfields and what type of athletes are commonly found in those midfields. Very powerful strong individuals who can take and dish out a very physical approach to the game. It is also clear that neither team has gone hell bent on drafting super quick athlete types

But each team from the grand final has one super quick, agile midfielder. They can apply a heap of pressure on the ball carrier when defending, & accelerate clear when they have the ball.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of playing Yarran in the midfield

 

[gbatman]

But each team from the grand final has one super quick, agile midfielder. They can apply a heap of pressure on the ball carrier when defending, & accelerate clear when they have the ball.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of playing Yarran in the midfield

Out of those two teams they had a fairly well balanced midfield in terms of pace, no real slow or real quick players on the ball. Pace is good, it's good to have some quick players but it isn't the be all and end all. It's not overly crucial for the onball group to be over quick. It is crucial that they are strong and have weight to throw around. Hawthorn's onball group isn't over quick (Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge Sewell), Sydney's is a bit quicker (Jack, Hannebery, O'Keefe, McVeigh, Kennedy) but not lightning, Collingwood's premiership team didn't have an over all quick onball group either (Ball, Swann etc).

I keep seeing teams win premierships without a whole heap of pace. Pace is not overly important in creating pressure in the midfield. Teams are doing that with zoning, getting numbers to the ball and behind the ball and closing the space and working as a team in putting pressure on rather than one individual chasing another. They are also doing it with how they move the ball (not too quickly and often around the boundry) to make sure there are numbers where the footy is.

Where the pace seems to be in premiership sides is the half back and half forward flanks which makes lost of sence seeing as the onballers generally need to be good at working in minimal space and holding up a physical style of game as is the nature of the position in modern footy and flankers are the ones who are positioned in areas where the game opens up and allows run and also where chasing is more important. There's also room on the wings for run as well.

I'd be happy to keep Yarran out on the periferal on the flanks and maybe wing rather than playing him in the middle where the game is often closed up. I would even consider giving Judd and Murphy more time in periferal positions and having McLean, Curnow, Bell etc doing more of the battering ram work in the guts.

I'm hoping we produce a game style less dependant on pace because it doesn't work. What we have been doing doesn't work because good teams simple close up the space and make it contested footy, just how finals are played.

I hope we play a style of footy that is applicable to finals and that means moving the ball a bit slower so we aren't caught with no options to go to forward of us and so we can get numbers to where the ball is going to be to apply pressure as a team and so we have time to set up zones and presses more effectively. Last year we tried to move it to quickly and it caused us to get burnt on the turn over and also caused turn overs. We need to make a game based around contested physical footy and that means having the right sort of players in the midfield. We can get our more skillful, fast and creative players on the outside we will be going well also.

There is a key thing you have mentioned in your post here about 1 quick midfielder that can break away etc. We have Judd and Murphy who fit this category but the key point you have raised is the one point. I think a lot of teams are going with that genuine powerful running class onballer and he is the guy the ruckman is going to be looking for while the other two do the body work (blocking and defending). This raises a good point, should Judd and Murphy be in there at the same time or should they be rotating through on the ball and the half forward flank? Perhaps our structures and roles haven't been quite right with our onball setup.

 

[Beer n Skittles]

Out of those two teams they had a fairly well balanced midfield in terms of pace, no real slow or real quick players on the ball. Pace is good, it's good to have some quick players but it isn't the be all and end all. It's not overly crucial for the onball group to be over quick. It is crucial that they are strong and have weight to throw around. Hawthorn's onball group isn't over quick (Lewis, Mitchell, Hodge Sewell), Sydney's is a bit quicker (Jack, Hannebery, O'Keefe, McVeigh, Kennedy) but not lightning, Collingwood's premiership team didn't have an over all quick onball group either (Ball, Swann etc).

I keep seeing teams win premierships without a whole heap of pace. Pace is not overly important in creating pressure in the midfield. Teams are doing that with zoning, getting numbers to the ball and behind the ball and closing the space and working as a team in putting pressure on rather than one individual chasing another. They are also doing it with how they move the ball (not too quickly and often around the boundry) to make sure there are numbers where the footy is.

Where the pace seems to be in premiership sides is the half back and half forward flanks which makes lost of sence seeing as the onballers generally need to be good at working in minimal space and holding up a physical style of game as is the nature of the position in modern footy and flankers are the ones who are positioned in areas where the game opens up and allows run and also where chasing is more important. There's also room on the wings for run as well.

I'd be happy to keep Yarran out on the periferal on the flanks and maybe wing rather than playing him in the middle where the game is often closed up. I would even consider giving Judd and Murphy more time in periferal positions and having McLean, Curnow, Bell etc doing more of the battering ram work in the guts.

I'm hoping we produce a game style less dependant on pace because it doesn't work. What we have been doing doesn't work because good teams simple close up the space and make it contested footy, just how finals are played.

I hope we play a style of footy that is applicable to finals and that means moving the ball a bit slower so we aren't caught with no options to go to forward of us and so we can get numbers to where the ball is going to be to apply pressure as a team and so we have time to set up zones and presses more effectively. Last year we tried to move it to quickly and it caused us to get burnt on the turn over and also caused turn overs. We need to make a game based around contested physical footy and that means having the right sort of players in the midfield. We can get our more skillful, fast and creative players on the outside we will be going well also.

There is a key thing you have mentioned in your post here about 1 quick midfielder that can break away etc. We have Judd and Murphy who fit this category but the key point you have raised is the one point. I think a lot of teams are going with that genuine powerful running class onballer and he is the guy the ruckman is going to be looking for while the other two do the body work (blocking and defending). This raises a good point, should Judd and Murphy be in there at the same time or should they be rotating through on the ball and the half forward flank? Perhaps our structures and roles haven't been quite right with our onball setup.

Rioli and Jetta both spend some time on the ball, they're who I meant. The inferred pressure when these guys are around is pretty high. It's more of a cameo from them on the ball though I suppose.

IMO Judd and Murphy work well in the same midfield only when Carrots is there too because he's so good defensively. That balance was thrown when Carrots went down this year.

Pace is great when you flood back and force a turnover, and the ground ahead is open. Otherwise yeah it more often than not just causes turnovers (besides Yarran who can get out of anything)

 

[gbatman]

Rioli and Jetta both spend some time on the ball, they're who I meant. The inferred pressure when these guys are around is pretty high. It's more of a cameo from them on the ball though I suppose.

IMO Judd and Murphy work well in the same midfield only when Carrots is there too because he's so good defensively. That balance was thrown when Carrots went down this year.

Pace is great when you flood back and force a turnover, and the ground ahead is open. Otherwise yeah it more often than not just causes turnovers (besides Yarran who can get out of anything)

Yep, they go in there because they can and to up rotations as well as to throw tags etc. It's a very good ploy and I wish we did it more.

P.S. I have also tried beer and skittles in search of the elusive Skittlebrau. It didn't end well .

 

[King of Ruin]

P.S. I have also tried beer and skittles in search of the elusive Skittlebrau. It didn't end well .

Acquired taste

 

[gbatman]

Acquired taste

I lost nearly half of my beer! Crazy fizz

 

[King of Ruin]

I lost nearly half of my beer! Crazy fizz

Someone should of warned you about that first

 

[Sin City]

Recruit strong powerful types with a good build and build their aerobic capacity through training.

Not always feasible. If they're going to work their way into into being AFL standard fitness why haven't they done it already? One of the best ways to have an impact in the AFL is to be fit enough to do it straight away like an Andrew Gaff, Matthew Kreuzer or Lachie Whitfield.

 

[albyg]

One of my main points is that these quick explosive types will be severely tested when they cant interchange as much, an eg. would be Dane Swan,he is interchanged the most when this is limited he could be out of steam come 3 qtr time. I think the bash and crash will reduce significantly due to the less congestion, hence the bigger bodies will no longer be needed a much.