Autopsy AFL 2018 - Grand Final - West Coast v Collingwood

[Eaglemaniac]

Any trade gossip in the west re player movements in/out of West Coast or are they waiting until after the Best and Fairest because of Gaff?

Word I’m hearing is he’s as good as gone but is waiting til after the B&F to tell everyone.

 

[The Filth]

Word I’m hearing is he’s as good as gone but is waiting til after the B&F to tell everyone.

Freo making lots of moves because they look like losing Neale to Brisbane - after Conca ex pat WA.
They might get Hogan from Melbourne too - but I don't know if Ross Lyon knows what to do with a forward

Looks like you may need another ruck - Lycet moving too?

 

[sounda]

Because we honestly dont think it was..........Seeing how some think it was and some don't is a little hint to why it wasn't played !!

Maynard engaged with willie before Sheed even started to move backwards to take the mark.

Whats Rioli suppose to do stand still ?

Fair go - I think that the Collingwood supporter 'The Filth' is trying his best to congratulate the WCE on our win and he is displaying good form.

As for the Maynard infringement - it probably was there. And there were a few others both ways.

So ... Simmo said that he would be disappointed, "... if the narrative of the game was centred around one free kick". I agree with that view - it was much, much more than one or two free kicks that were missed.

Let's move on and stop trying to win a pointless argument plus the flag.

 

[The Filth]

I'm not precious but you really do appear sour. Putting on a facade of even handedness while trying to cheapen the win. You can listen to who you choose to, but there are enough pundits that say it wasn't a free kick to counter yours, making it one of those 50/50 decisions you get in a game.

I mean, you keep banging on about Kennedy's mark while ignoring the clear mark Vardy took that was disallowed. We could play this all day.

It's not a facade...but thanks for the put down.
I'm not going to play this all day...you have a blinkered opinion...you're entitled to it.

 

[Valleyboy9]

I have said - you are deserved winners.
They put the whistle away - they weren't payng infringements both ways in the last quarter.
But to say that wasn't an infringement any other day of the season is ridiculous.
If it was only one "expert" coming out and saying it a infringement fine, but the number of them, many from neutral positions from past players, coaches, legends of the game, media etc? Cmon
These things happen - no conspiracy - it was the way the umps wanted to adjudicate the game - put the whistle away.
As for the AFL their statement - was very carefully worded...you expect them to say the umpires got it wrong? There would be a riot.

Even with the non-call it still took a brave and accurate kick at goal to win it.
Get over it - it was an infringement - no call was given - s**t happens.
Well done - West Coast Premiers - congrats - well deserved win.

Did you think HOWE was caught “holding the ball” when tackled by Rioli in the square in the last minute. Being the umpires “put the whistle away”

 

[The Filth]

Fair go - I think that the Collingwood supporter 'The Filth' is trying his best to congratulate the WCE on our win and he is displaying good form.

As for the Maynard infringement - it probably was there. And there were a few others both ways.

So ... Simmo said that he would be disappointed, "... if the narrative of the game was centred around one free kick". I agree with that view - it was much, much more than one or two free kicks that were missed.

Let's move on and stop trying to win a pointless argument plus the flag.

Thank you - that's all I want to express.

You outplayed us for the last three quarters - your blanketing of Grundy and Sidebottom was superb.
You beat us in the mids - we kept Yeo quiet for the first half with a tag but Shuey and Sheed were beasts in the contest.
Actually beat us in the midfield - for most of the game you always had one more effective mid than we did.
Pies were gallant and somehow managed to hold on for the majority of the game. Even though West Coast controlled the game for large periods of play they were unable to score and get value for their dominance.
As for umpiring - the umps put the whistle away and let the game flow - same as in most grand finals.
Infringements made by both sides weren't called - as I say Maynard was infringed but the umpiring was still consistent with the "no whistle" policy and I don't have a problem with it (only have a problem with people in denial that an infringement was there - but that is nitpicking - sorry)
The narrative of the game IS much more than just one free kick. We were beaten by a better side on the day. It was close, and we had our chances too - no disgrace.

What this Grand final and the "umpiring controversy" may do is lead to a discussion of the policy of putting the whistle away - do you call them if they're there or do you prefer the let it go style/less interventionist umpiring that creates a finals type intensity and accept the non calls of some infringements. Maybe you have a policy of putting the whistle away more in the H&A season too - not just the finals? Something to consider.

West Coast had a terrific season and are deserving Premiers. Too good.
(to those of you who think i'm putting on a 'facade' or that I'm being fake in my 'even-handedness' - get stuffed)
Both clubs were underrated at the start of the season and put on one of the best Grand Finals in recent times.
Both sides I believe earned some respect and redemption for their seasons and finals performances.
I believe West Coast also had the game to beat Richmond if they played them instead of us.
Congrats.
Trade period will be interesting - hope you get good value for Gaff and Lycett should they leave.
Best of luck next season.

 

[The Filth]

The same

Did you think HOWE was caught “holding the ball” when tackled by Rioli in the square in the last minute. Being the umpires “put the whistle away”

You missed my point....keep going...Valleyboy is probably appropriate...grow up

 

[Eaglemaniac]

Freo making lots of moves because they look like losing Neale to Brisbane - after Conca ex pat WA.
They might get Hogan from Melbourne too - but I don't know if Ross Lyon knows what to do with a forward

Looks like you may need another ruck - Lycet moving too?

Freo are struggling because their best players are leaving due to not being happy with Lyon apparently, so they’re scrambling to get others in.
Lycett apparently had a medical at Port Adelaide today so I think he’s gone too as he was a Port junior.

 

[The Filth]

Freo are struggling because their best players are leaving due to not being happy with Lyon apparently, so they’re scrambling to get others in.
Lycett apparently had a medical at Port Adelaide today so I think he’s gone too as he was a Port junior.

Always the problem - the 'go home' factor - especially now with free agency.
Lycett has been good for you - can't begrudge him leaving though.

The "go-home" factor can be a blessing and a curse though - only two teams in WA and a lot of bloody good WA footballers interstate who want to go home themselves.
Tim Kelly for the cats looks like a great talent - you'd be wanting him to return home to WA!

 

[JackOutback]

You missed my point....keep going...Valleyboy is probably appropriate...grow up

And this a why your 'evenhandedness' is disingenuous at best. Happy to put the focus on one missed free kick you didn't like while ignoring all the rest. Perhaps if the majority of your recent posts weren't about the 'Maynard free kick', people would be willing to accept your comments as genuine.

 

[The Filth]

And this a why your 'evenhandedness' is disingenuous at best. Happy to put the focus on one missed free kick you didn't like while ignoring all the rest. Perhaps if the majority of your recent posts weren't about the 'Maynard free kick', people would be willing to accept your comments as genuine.

Get stuffed...disingenuous? - calling me a liar...pretty low..
Quite frankly I don't care if you're willing to accept my comments as genuine or not. I know myself.

Read my posts - I acknowledge that the free wasn't paid because of the "put the whistle away" policy adopted by the umpires.
I acknowledge that there are other infringements on both sides that weren't paid..
Do I list them all? No - because the issue and the focus in the media and on the game is on the Maynard incident..
Going into other incidents - do you think Howe infringed, Stephenson run too far. Vardy wasn't paid a mark is distraction and deflection.
We would only go back and forth with endless lists of calls/non calls for the entire game without addressing the elephant in the room.
Do you think Maynard was infringed? Y/N
I say yes - as does the majority of considered opinion from peers in the game. It is a pretty blatant block if you look at it objectively. You probably could even call "play on" after the mark
Sorry if it is sensitive to you.

Do I think it cheapens West Coasts premiership - no - and this is what I'm trying to get at.
A 'put the whistle away policy' leads to these sorts of situations. You have to accept that there are no calls made against both sides.
This doesn't take place in H&A football. If you don't want these sorts of controversies over calls do you change the policy of putting the whistle away in finals or not? Do you adopt a put the whistle away style during the regualar season? If you accept a put the whistle away umpiring style should you accept errors/non calls (I say yes - what I don't like is the deniers that there was an infringement - get over it - don't argue there wasn't - move on)

I don't particularly like Robert Walls and he doesn't like West Coast or Collingwood, but I found his comments interesting:
(And while Walls believed it was certainly a mark, he suggested other umpires would’ve paid the free kick.
“It was a mark certainly. The question is was it a block? Did Rioli block Maynard? I think he did. I’m happy enough that it wasn’t paid,” Walls said on AFL Tonight.
“I tell you what, if Razor Ray had of been umpiring — he would’ve paid a free kick against Rioli for blocking Maynard’s attempt at the footy.”
“He blocked for Sheed. They’re smart (footballers), they know how to do that)

Pies had their chances to win a close game but West Coast controlled the play for the majority of the game and are deserving premiers.
The Pies led for the majority of the game and if we were able to hang on and were in front when the siren went we would be equally deserving.

 

[bzparkes]

Ok how about this;

Nullify the Sheed goal - it was a free kick.
Nullify the Stephenson goal - he ran too far.

Eagles win by 4 points. Discussion over.

 

[The Filth]

Ok how about this;

Nullify the Sheed goal - it was a free kick.
Nullify the Stephenson goal - he ran too far.

Eagles win by 4 points. Discussion over.

You're still playing tit for tat...kennedy got a goal from a non-mark too..we could go on all day...I notice this is the approach of some others too.
So you're happy now to accept that Maynard was infringed as long as there is some kind of infringment tally across the game that evens it up so as to not undermine the legitimacy of your win? It doesn't work that way. That's not it either. West Coast are deserved winners in any case.

You miss the basic point - if you decide that you adopt a "put the whistle away" policy for umpiring a grand final you do so accepting the fact that there are going to be non-calls made on even blatant infringements.
Did these infringements occur yes - no point in denying them. If it was a home and away game where you attempt to call all frees then you would be pinged. If it was an umpire like Razor Ray Chamberlain you would expect to be pinged.
Was there an infringement on Maynard - yes.
Does the fact that a call wasn't made in "put the whistle away" umpiring cheapen West Coasts premiership - no - because that is the trade-off if you umpire this way.
If you don't want to accept no calls then umpire grand finals in the same way you do home and away games.

 

[PetterdHoisted]

Defintion of choking in sport:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke_(sports)

"In sports, a choke is the failure of a sportsperson or team in a game in a situation where maintaining their performance is highly important. This can occur in a game or tournament that they are strongly favored to win, or in an instance where they have a large lead that they squander in the late stages of the event."

Neither of these occurred. They weren't strongly favored to win by anyone, most thought it would be a close GF, and they didn't squander a large lead late in the game, they squandered it by the end of the first quarter.

Clear choke? No, its clearly NOT a choke by its very definition.

But wait vicco sides are favourites against any interstate GF oppo. The Hawks dogs and Tiges have had that drummed into them.

Ergo the Pies choked up on a similar advantage.

Either the Pies choked or we have to rewrite the narratives of the last 5 GFs and actually give credit to the vicco winners.

So which is it?

 

[Trebor57]

Illogical. Had Maynard been awarded the free as football legend Leigh Matthews insisted then the Pies only needed one free to go their way in order to win the grand final.

People reason this way all the time, but even if Maynard had been awarded the free kick that does not guarantee Collingwood win. He could easily have turned the ball over with his kick and there was still plenty of time (There was still 1:47 on the clock even after Sheed had kicked the goal) in those circumstances for the Eagles to have scored the winning goal. They had been pumping it continually into the forward 50. If there were only seconds to go it would be a different story, but when there is still plenty of time on the clock, everything after point A (say a free kick to Maynard) is purely hypothetical. Could have been a Collingwood win, or just as easily the Eagles still kick the winning goal, they were dominating the play at that stage.

 

[The Filth]

People reason this way all the time, but even if Maynard had been awarded the free kick that does not guarantee Collingwood win. He could easily have turned the ball over with his kick and there was still plenty of time (There was still 1:47 on the clock even after Sheed had kicked the goal) in those circumstances for the Eagles to have scored the winning goal. They had been pumping it continually into the forward 50. If there were only seconds to go it would be a different story, but when there is still plenty of time on the clock, everything after point A (say a free kick to Maynard) is purely hypothetical. Could have been a Collingwood win, or just as easily the Eagles still kick the winning goal, they were dominating the play at that stage.

But we will never know...that's footy!
(Although I'd much rather have the ball in the hands of a player with 88.9% disposal efficiency for the game, only 1:47 left on the clock and still in front on the scoreboard wouldn't you)
Congrats on your win .

 

[Trebor57]

But we will never know...that's footy!
(Although I'd much rather have the ball in the hands of a player with 88.9% disposal efficiency for the game, only 1:47 left on the clock and still in front on the scoreboard wouldn't you)
Congrats on your win .

True, and that's exactly the point. It may or may not have been a bad call but paying it to Maynard may not have changed the result. Even with his excellent disposal efficiency he would still have to spot up a free player given that the Eagles were dominating the contested ball at that stage. But it is all history now. And it was a great game to watch. Either side would have been the worthy winner.

 

[wraglesweb]

Get stuffed...disingenuous? - calling me a liar...pretty low..
Quite frankly I don't care if you're willing to accept my comments as genuine or not. I know myself.

Read my posts - I acknowledge that the free wasn't paid because of the "put the whistle away" policy adopted by the umpires.
I acknowledge that there are other infringements on both sides that weren't paid..
Do I list them all? No - because the issue and the focus in the media and on the game is on the Maynard incident..
Going into other incidents - do you think Howe infringed, Stephenson run too far. Vardy wasn't paid a mark is distraction and deflection.
We would only go back and forth with endless lists of calls/non calls for the entire game without addressing the elephant in the room.
Do you think Maynard was infringed? Y/N
I say yes - as does the majority of considered opinion from peers in the game. It is a pretty blatant block if you look at it objectively. You probably could even call "play on" after the mark
Sorry if it is sensitive to you.

Do I think it cheapens West Coasts premiership - no - and this is what I'm trying to get at.
A 'put the whistle away policy' leads to these sorts of situations. You have to accept that there are no calls made against both sides.
This doesn't take place in H&A football. If you don't want these sorts of controversies over calls do you change the policy of putting the whistle away in finals or not? Do you adopt a put the whistle away style during the regualar season? If you accept a put the whistle away umpiring style should you accept errors/non calls (I say yes - what I don't like is the deniers that there was an infringement - get over it - don't argue there wasn't - move on)

I don't particularly like Robert Walls and he doesn't like West Coast or Collingwood, but I found his comments interesting:
(And while Walls believed it was certainly a mark, he suggested other umpires would’ve paid the free kick.
“It was a mark certainly. The question is was it a block? Did Rioli block Maynard? I think he did. I’m happy enough that it wasn’t paid,” Walls said on AFL Tonight.
“I tell you what, if Razor Ray had of been umpiring — he would’ve paid a free kick against Rioli for blocking Maynard’s attempt at the footy.”
“He blocked for Sheed. They’re smart (footballers), they know how to do that)

Pies had their chances to win a close game but West Coast controlled the play for the majority of the game and are deserving premiers.
The Pies led for the majority of the game and if we were able to hang on and were in front when the siren went we would be equally deserving.

Now he's pulled out Robert Walls..........
I have heard it all now........

Let's be honest what was Maynard trying to achieve there ? He was outnumbered and went to Rioli to try and take the mark, If that was any of our defenders they would of read the ball in flight and punched it over the line. It was almost like he was playing the forward trying to out body Willie to take the mark.

 

[The Filth]

True, and that's exactly the point. It may or may not have been a bad call but paying it to Maynard may not have changed the result. Even with his excellent disposal efficiency he would still have to spot up a free player given that the Eagles were dominating the contested ball at that stage. But it is all history now. And it was a great game to watch. Either side would have been the worthy winner.

Exactly.
I'm still one proud and happy Pies supporter able to celebrate a great season.
Looking forward to continuing our rivalry next year - hopefully we will both be playing finals again.
Congrats

 

[The Filth]

Now he's pulled out Robert Walls..........
I have heard it all now........

Let's be honest what was Maynard trying to achieve there ? He was outnumbered and went to Rioli to try and take the mark, If that was any of our defenders they would of read the ball in flight and punched it over the line. It was almost like he was playing the forward trying to out body Willie to take the mark.

Theres no point in further discussion with you, you don't seem to be able to understand what I am trying to say re umpiring when they "put the whistle away". There is more leniency and less free kicks are given even when infringements are made.
Rioli blocked Maynard - almost every major commentator who has played football acknowledge that, at least half a dozen former AFL coaches acknowledge that,most senior football editors and journalists acknowledge that and I think they know more about marking contests than you or I - free wasn't given.
Would be paid if it was a H&A match umpired normally or if you had a stricter interpretation umpire such as 'Razor Ray', just not in a final where you "put the whistle away".
As for the Robert Walls comments, I prefaced my remarks in quoting him saying I don't particulary like him either - merely saying that for once he made some interesting points - but you still have to be defensive and 'shoot the messenger' and dismiss the comments out-of-hand.
At least get one thing into your head - I am not trying to cheapen your victory. You deserved your win.
Good luck to you.
Congrats on the win.
(Although I must admit I am more inclined to be happy to congratulate opposition supporters who are less beligerent and more sporting)
Geeezzz....lucky I'm not a supporter who believes we were robbed...or the umpire was biased...or there was a conspiracy..or that we should sign a petition...or hasn't been anything other than genuine in expressing their views...FFS "Let's be honest"...

 

[wraglesweb]

Theres no point in further discussion with you, you don't seem to be able to understand what I am trying to say re umpiring when they "put the whistle away". There is more leniency and less free kicks are given even when infringements are made.
Rioli blocked Maynard - almost every major commentator who has played football acknowledge that, at least half a dozen former AFL coaches acknowledge that,most senior football editors and journalists acknowledge that and I think they know more about marking contests than you or I - free wasn't given.
Would be paid if it was a H&A match umpired normally or if you had a stricter interpretation umpire such as 'Razor Ray', just not in a final where you "put the whistle away".
As for the Robert Walls comments, I prefaced my remarks in quoting him saying I don't particulary like him either - merely saying that for once he made some interesting points - but you still have to be defensive and 'shoot the messenger' and dismiss the comments out-of-hand.
At least get one thing into your head - I am not trying to cheapen your victory. You deserved your win.
Good luck to you.
Congrats on the win.
(Although I must admit I am more inclined to be happy to congratulate opposition supporters who are less beligerent and more sporting)
Geeezzz....lucky I'm not a supporter who believes we were robbed...or the umpire was biased...or there was a conspiracy..or that we should sign a petition...or hasn't been anything other than genuine in expressing their views...FFS "Let's be honest"...

I could say the same your not getting it.
There is also commentators who said it wasn't a block. And coaches who said the same. Jordan Bannister came out said it's play on. You just cant seem to accept there is other people who think it wasn't a block.
And your right no point further discussing with you......................

 

[wce4premiership]

Rioli never blocked Maynard. It was a marking contest that Maynard initiated. It's quite simple to understand.

 

[Valleyboy9]

You missed my point....keep going...Valleyboy is probably appropriate...grow up

You are the one that needs to grow up. It was a simple question but of course you don’t want to answer it. For all your “well done Eagles” you have hung on to the blocking for 6 days. AFL said is wasn’t. Move on idiot. BTW when you have to lower yourself to make derogatory comments about a persons name it displays your lack of maturity.

 

[Coaster2012]

But wait vicco sides are favourites against any interstate GF oppo. The Hawks dogs and Tiges have had that drummed into them.

Ergo the Pies choked up on a similar advantage.

Either the Pies choked or we have to rewrite the narratives of the last 5 GFs and actually give credit to the vicco winners.

So which is it?

You got to read to post, I even bolded it for you and you still missed it ---->"they are strongly favored to win"

Pies weren't strongly favored to win. Most people were predicting a very close GF i.e Mclure had Pies by 1 point. King had Eagles by 1 point.

 

[Eaglemaniac]

Always the problem - the 'go home' factor - especially now with free agency.
Lycett has been good for you - can't begrudge him leaving though.

The "go-home" factor can be a blessing and a curse though - only two teams in WA and a lot of bloody good WA footballers interstate who want to go home themselves.
Tim Kelly for the cats looks like a great talent - you'd be wanting him to return home to WA!

Absolutely. To be honest I was gutted we didn’t pick him up last year, so if we get him this year without losing too much then I’d be very happy, and so would a lot on the WCE Bigfootu boards coz we all rated him before the draft and he’s only gotten better.