Autopsy AFL 2020 Round 12 - Dockers v Blues Sat August 15th 8:10pm AEST (Optus) Match Highlights in OP

Who will win and by how much?

  • Freo by a goal or less

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Blues by a goal or less

    Votes: 2 4.9%
  • Freo by 7 - 20

    Votes: 22 53.7%
  • Blues by 7 - 20

    Votes: 9 22.0%
  • Freo by a lot

    Votes: 5 12.2%
  • Blues by a lot

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • Draw

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .

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When the ump blows the whistle in relation to the infringement, is the ball 45 meters out on the boundary line where the final kick is taken? Simply not true. You surely don’t believe that do you? I will give you half way between from where Docherty kicks it’s if you like. Hey I will even give you two thirds. 45 meter kick from Docherty? a generous 2/3rds? The ball is at best 60 meters out near the boundary when he blows the whistle. Good luck with that kick for goal. That was the point of the discussion.
You said this:
So when the free kick was awarded, the ball was only a few meters off his boot given he makes contact (that the Ump deems illegal) a split second after it leaves his boot.

Is that statement of yours true? If so, please provide the evidence.
 
Mate , i say MATE!!! I was handing you a gold star for boning up (as you said) But if your gonna get all uppity about it i will take it back :cool:
Oh, you'd know if I got uppity...... :)
 

adey115

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Didn’t he re enter where the boundary umpire was?
Not sure that the Boundary Umps position is relevant. But this is a great pic. The mark should be on the boundary line in front of the Freo runner in pink, where the ball crosses the line for deliberate.

1597575809932.png


Docherty doesn’t re enter the field for another 5-6 meters down the line. He hasn’t been anywhere near behind the mark. The Ump has even called play on about 5-6 meters before he re-enters the field. in the video he runs down that outside line, rather than straight onto the field of play, to get away from Taberner who starts moving towards him. The Ump got the deliberate right ( in my opinion), but stuffed up everything from there on.
 

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Look at the video. The free kick is awarded where the ball crossed the line. That was just in front of the Freo runner, who was standing inside the section which includes the free interchange dugout. Docherty re enters the field of play a number of meters ahead of where that interchange dugout is. At no stage does he go behind where the mark should actually be. A complete screw up by the ump. Full marks to Docherty for awareness in trying to get it up there quickly, but he’s run in from OOB without going behind where the mark should be. Not doubting the deliberate at all, but the ump utterly stuffs that up just because Docherty suddenly went off running with the ball. Total lack of awareness from the ump.

This is just patently wrong.

Del.png


Ball went over the boundary quite a bit goal side of the Dockers interchange bloke, not in front of him as you say it did. Accounting for camera angle it's probably about in line with the second slat of the interchange bench roof.

Del 2.png


Docherty collects the ball from the Dockers interchange bloke, now well behind where the ball went out i.e. well behind the mark.

del 3.png


Realises the Freo are asleep at the wheel and plays on from behind the mark where he collected the ball in screenshot #2 and by the time the the camera is back on him on screenshot #3 he's around about where the ball went out (second slat of the interchange bench roof) ump calls play on and he's running is a straight line back into play.

There is nothing wrong with this. The only thing Freo supporters should be dirty on is their players not manning the bloody mark.
 

Demontim275

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Not sure that the Boundary Umps position is relevant. But this is a great pic. The mark should be on the boundary line in front of the Freo runner in pink, where the ball crosses the line for deliberate.

View attachment 937614

Docherty doesn’t re enter the field for another 5-6 meters down the line. He hasn’t been anywhere near behind the mark. The Ump has even called play on about 5-6 meters before he re-enters the field. in the video he runs down that outside line, rather than straight onto the field of play, to get away from Taberner who starts moving towards him. The Ump got the deliberate right ( in my opinion), but stuffed up everything from there on.
You are allowed to play on in a straight line onto the field of play. That’s already been explained to you

the boundary umpire is relevant because they set the point of exit for the ball. You don’t have to re enter at the point the ball exited the field.

it happens all the time in the forward line. Players will lessen the angle by running back towards the centre to take a snap, not run a direct line after OOBOTF.

You just seem want to want something to complain about. I think you’ve changed what you have “issue” with about 5 times
 

TheKITC

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This is just patently wrong.

View attachment 937624

Ball went over the boundary quite a bit goal side of the Dockers interchange bloke, not in front of him as you say it did. Accounting for camera angle it's probably about in line with the second slat of the interchange bench roof.

View attachment 937630

Docherty collects the ball from the Dockers interchange bloke, now well behind where the ball went out i.e. well behind the mark.

View attachment 937633

Realises the Freo are asleep at the wheel and plays on from behind the mark where he collected the ball in screenshot #2 and by the time the the camera is back on him on screenshot #3 he's around about where the ball went out (second slat of the interchange bench roof) ump calls play on and he's running is a straight line back into play.

There is nothing wrong with this. The only thing Freo supporters should be dirty on is their players not manning the bloody mark.

Wow...

This has actually changed my mind as I thought it was an umpire stuff up to let Docherty do that. This shows that Doc was on his line properly and it was Taberner who was not manning the mark correctly. Was MT trying to 'steal' some ground by pretending the mark was where he was standing?

Nice work MK.
 
Mar 1, 2007
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This doesn't support your argument at all.

The truth is, the rule doesn't state explicitly where the Newnes should have taken the free from. It's impossible for the umpire to determine exactly where the "nearest location on the boundary line or where the football is at the time" is, when the ball was in flight, outside the field of play when the free was awarded. The way the rule is written leaves it open to interpretation.

What the rule doesn't say, is "the nearest location on the boundary line to where the ball lands" or "the nearest location on the boundary line to where the ball comes to a stop". This interpretation would cause ridiculous scenarios if balls were kicked 30 rows back, or hit objects outside the field of play and bounced further along.

Probably why the standard application of down the field is like it is ie. they pay it from where the ball was going to land, or in this case where the ball is judged to have gone out. Just easier than guesstimating where the ball was in flight when the whistle was blown.

It's difficult to say exactly where Newnes should have taken his kick from, even with replays and knowing the exact wording of the rule. The sensible interpretation would be to put the mark where the ball left the field of play, which is clearly not where the mark was set.

The mark being moved 5-15m further towards the goals clearly had an enormous impact on the outcome of the game.

Eh? It was round about right. I mean yeah you can argue 5m either way, 15m is fantasy stuff.
 
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It's pretty unanimous with the media and neutrals on BF that the free kick was never there in the first place that lead to the free kick down field. The other stuff is confusion and a brilliant finish.
It will be interesting to see how the AFL handles who should take a kick in the same situation in future. The idea that anyone can take that kick and not the person closest (like almost everyone did until we read the rules) does seem like it could be exploited fairly easily.

Yep, finally saw another angle on the news last night and it didn't look like Doc got hit high, happy to concede the downfield free shouldn't have been paid in the first place.

And yeah pretty crazy that the 'closest player' part has been removed from the rules. Why would they do that lol.
 
Mar 1, 2007
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That's exactly the point.

- 2x free kicks within 20 seconds, both arguable either way and certainly wouldn't have caused significant post-match controversy if either were not paid
- Docherty playing on and running well ahead of the mark whilst still out of bounds
- Mark set 5-15m closer to goal than it should have been
- Wrong player taking the kick

It was an extraordinary set of circumstances in 20 seconds of football that lead to the ball ending up with Newnes on the siren.

Each decision alone I agree, you could split hairs and make an argument either way whether the umpire got it right, and the ones that the umpire did get wrong (through either human error, or vagaries in the wording of the rules) you could argue whether they would have affected the outcome.

But I don't see how you can deny how that number of umpiring 50/50s and errors, in such a short space of time, all in the favour of the same team, at the very end of the game (preceeding what was incidentally one the best after-the-siren shots ever seen) is unprecedentedly controversial (certainly in my time watching AFL, with the exception of sirengate).
And after all that, we still only ended up with 1 goal.

Freo got 2 from umpiring errors in the first quarter, in a 5 goal game.
 
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Mar 1, 2007
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Wow...

This has actually changed my mind as I thought it was an umpire stuff up to let Docherty do that. This shows that Doc was on his line properly and it was Taberner who was not manning the mark correctly. Was MT trying to 'steal' some ground by pretending the mark was where he was standing?

Nice work MK.

Yeah I was the same watching it live, thought you can't do that. Looked bad but when you think about it, it actually happens all the time - literally every time a player has a set shot for goal on a tight angle where he starts behind his mark outside the boundary line, if he runs in board for the snap, he's playing on while outside the boundary line. Exact same thing.
 
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I think both sets of supporters would acknowledge the umpiring was terrible in this game.

My reaction when Doherty kicked ball out of bounds was that we've hung on for a win, and when I recognized the umps had made another bad decision it was: "who cares, he's not going to kick it from there".

Its a consolation that the game was decided by a skillful Jack Newnes kick - rather than umpiring ineptitude.
Classy post. :thumbsu:
 

VicBased

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Carlton supporters hey :tearsofjoy: Last week they were on here, full blown, canning the umpiring and dishing it up to WC. Now they are on here defending the Umpires and dishing it up to Freo. Really!!! Talk about short sighted and fair weather vocal supporters who are so self serving and narrow minded.
 
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Carlton supporters hey :tearsofjoy: Last week they were on here, full blown, canning the umpiring and dishing it up to WC. Now they are on here defending the Umpires and dishing it up to Freo. Really!!! Talk about short sighted and fair weather vocal supporters who are so self serving and narrow minded.

Not that I was one complaining last week, umps didn't make the difference as WC were clearly better, but would have thought evaluating each set of circumstances on their merits would be the reasonable approach ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

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adey115

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You are allowed to play on in a straight line onto the field of play. That’s already been explained to you

the boundary umpire is relevant because they set the point of exit for the ball. You don’t have to re enter at the point the ball exited the field.

it happens all the time in the forward line. Players will lessen the angle by running back towards the centre to take a snap, not run a direct line after OOBOTF.

You just seem want to want something to complain about. I think you’ve changed what you have “issue” with about 5 times

The boundary ump sets the point if it’s out on the full, not when it is deliberate. He blows the whistle when he sees it is out of bounds no matter where he is. If it’s out on the full he indicates the point it crossed. If it’s out of bounds he goes to collect the ball to throw it in. When he sees the field ump call deliberate he usually moves to a spot forward cos he knows which way the ball is likely to be heading next. So when Docherty nearly runs into him, he is well forward of where the ball went out of bounds deliberately. I don’t believe Docherty went behind the mark, and ran outside the boundary.

There are actually 6 umpiring issues....
Deliberate, correct. Some have said no. Clearly deliberate for me.
Docherty playing on outside the fiend of play forward of the Mark.
The free kick for making Contact after the kick. I don’t think it was a free.
Where the down field Free kick is taken in the wording of the rules.
if it’s taken at the point where it goes out on the full, was it taken at the right spot. I don’t think they got it right. Looks 50 to 55 out to me.
Was the free down field taken by the right player. I haven’t seen anyone say that was correct.

Speaking of the boundary ump indicating where the out on the full is:

1597710091226.jpeg


Plenty of Carlton supporters complaining about the issue the week before with the Umps, and rightly so because it was ridiculous. It was the second worst HTB for the season behind that McGrath call for Essendon, but happened at a worse time because it clearly effected the result of that Carl Vs WC game. This week many are commenting as if the Umps got it all right. I think they made fundamental blunders in a row effecting the result of the game.
 

Demontim275

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The boundary ump sets the point if it’s out on the full, not when it is deliberate. He blows the whistle when he sees it is out of bounds no matter where he is. If it’s out on the full he indicates the point it crossed. If it’s out of bounds he goes to collect the ball to throw it in. When he sees the field ump call deliberate he usually moves to a spot forward cos he knows which way the ball is likely to be heading next. So when Docherty nearly runs into him, he is well forward of where the ball went out of bounds deliberately. I don’t believe Docherty went behind the mark, and ran outside the boundary.

There are actually 6 umpiring issues....
Deliberate, correct. Some have said no. Clearly deliberate for me.
Docherty playing on outside the fiend of play forward of the Mark.
The free kick for making Contact after the kick. I don’t think it was a free.
Where the down field Free kick is taken in the wording of the rules.
if it’s taken at the point where it goes out on the full, was it taken at the right spot. I don’t think they got it right. Looks 50 to 55 out to me.
Was the free down field taken by the right player. I haven’t seen anyone say that was correct.

Speaking of the boundary ump indicating where the out on the full is:

View attachment 938670

Plenty of Carlton supporters complaining about the issue the week before with the Umps, and rightly so because it was ridiculous. It was the second worst HTB for the season behind that McGrath call for Essendon, but happened at a worse time because it clearly effected the result of that Carl Vs WC game. This week many are commenting as if the Umps got it all right. I think they made fundamental blunders in a row effecting the result of the game.
I mean you change your point of where it went out about 3 time’s in the post

You claim it was 50-55 out, then post a photo with an x on the 50, and the boundary umpire ahead of the 50...

The boundary umpire sets the point where the deliberate exited the field of play. That is the mark for deliberate...

you are allowed to re-enter the field of play in a straight lone. You don’t have to cross at the mark.
 

adey115

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I mean you change your point of where it went out about 3 time’s in the post

You claim it was 50-55 out, then post a photo with an x on the 50, and the boundary umpire ahead of the 50...

The boundary umpire sets the point where the deliberate exited the field of play. That is the mark for deliberate...

you are allowed to re-enter the field of play in a straight lone. You don’t have to cross at the mark.

I think it was 50-55 out. The boundary ump says 49, and I think that was generous. The herald sun marked 50 with a red x on that pic. Sorry that they got that artwork to your disliking. Regardless if the mark is 49 on the boundary where the boundary ump indicates, it is some meters beyond where the field ump sets it, and to kick it over the man on the mark it’s a 55 meter kick or so. You willing to acknowledge that the kick was closer than the decision making boundary ump says it was and the field ump got it wrong, or do you want to complain more about the artwork?

The boundary ump doesn’t set the point For deliberate, because he doesn’t make the decision that it’s deliberate. Even if he does as you say, he doesn’t stand there and set the mark. That is the job of the field ump. for on the full, the boundary ump indicates the point, then moves away up the ground in the direction of where the disposal is likely to go. The boundary ump is not where the ball crosses the boundary for deliberate In this case, he has already moved on up the field.

The straight line point is fine, when you have been behind the mark. Docherty did not go behind the mark.
 
Mar 1, 2007
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The boundary ump sets the point if it’s out on the full, not when it is deliberate. He blows the whistle when he sees it is out of bounds no matter where he is. If it’s out on the full he indicates the point it crossed. If it’s out of bounds he goes to collect the ball to throw it in. When he sees the field ump call deliberate he usually moves to a spot forward cos he knows which way the ball is likely to be heading next. So when Docherty nearly runs into him, he is well forward of where the ball went out of bounds deliberately. I don’t believe Docherty went behind the mark, and ran outside the boundary.

There are actually 6 umpiring issues....
Deliberate, correct. Some have said no. Clearly deliberate for me.
Docherty playing on outside the fiend of play forward of the Mark.
The free kick for making Contact after the kick. I don’t think it was a free.
Where the down field Free kick is taken in the wording of the rules.
if it’s taken at the point where it goes out on the full, was it taken at the right spot. I don’t think they got it right. Looks 50 to 55 out to me.
Was the free down field taken by the right player. I haven’t seen anyone say that was correct.

Speaking of the boundary ump indicating where the out on the full is:

View attachment 938670

Doc kinda had to be behind the mark coz he collected the ball himself ie. the ball wasn't knocked across the line at a 90 degree angle, it was knocked also knocked forward towards Freo's goal. So at the point he grabs the ball near the dugout he's obviously 'behind' the mark, although I'm unsure of the technicalities around the angle ie. does he still have to be in a line with the mark and his own goal when he's that far out on the wing - doesn't seem like it judging from free kicks for OOBOTF taken close to opposition goal. If there is an issue we're probably talking a matter of inches or a foot or 2, reckon bringing that back would have been more contentious than letting it go.

And yeah saw the vision last night of where the boundary ump indicated where the ball crossed vs where the field ump set the mark, definite screw up there.

Plenty of Carlton supporters complaining about the issue the week before with the Umps, and rightly so because it was ridiculous. It was the second worst HTB for the season behind that McGrath call for Essendon, but happened at a worse time because it clearly effected the result of that Carl Vs WC game. This week many are commenting as if the Umps got it all right. I think they made fundamental blunders in a row effecting the result of the game.

Damn right they effected the result - we shoulda won by 10 not 4 with the 2 Freo goals from clearly incorrect free kicks in the first quarter! :p
 

Demontim275

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I think it was 50-55 out. The boundary ump says 49, and I think that was generous. The herald sun marked 50 with a red x on that pic. Sorry that they got that artwork to your disliking. Regardless if the mark is 49 on the boundary where the boundary ump indicates, it is some meters beyond where the field ump sets it, and to kick it over the man on the mark it’s a 55 meter kick or so. You willing to acknowledge that the kick was closer than the decision making boundary ump says it was and the field ump got it wrong, or do you want to complain more about the artwork?

The boundary ump doesn’t set the point For deliberate, because he doesn’t make the decision that it’s deliberate. Even if he does as you say, he doesn’t stand there and set the mark. That is the job of the field ump. for on the full, the boundary ump indicates the point, then moves away up the ground in the direction of where the disposal is likely to go. The boundary ump is not where the ball crosses the boundary for deliberate In this case, he has already moved on up the field.

The straight line point is fine, when you have been behind the mark. Docherty did not go behind the mark.
Sigh. You posted the photo without credit, so it was a fair assumption that it was your x placing...

he was probably off 2-3 metres I’d say. Looks about 48 and think it was kicked from about 45. I think half the issue was when the mark was set there was so much ******* around with the moron camera man, that attention was lost on the exact point. Freo didn’t seem to argue the mark though, which If it was 10m difference as you think, I’d suggest their players would be arguing that

Of course the boundary umpire has to set the point it left the field for deliberate,
Do you think the field umpire just picks a random point?

Was the ball ahead of the mark when docherty got it?

the umpires made a major blunder in picking the wrong player to take the free, the deliberate was there, the downfield was probably slightly soft, but there, and it should’ve been gibbons taking the kick (although I think gibbons is a better kick than newnes anyway. And newnes didn’t seem to want it)

The umpiring was shithouse both ways all game, it didn’t impact the result, and if you want to claim it did, youd need to analyse every decision made (including frees paid, frees not paid, 50s paid, 50s not paid) and show that this ONE decision was the only incorrect.

people only remember it because it was after the siren.
 
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