Autopsy AFL 2021 First Semi Final - Lions v Bulldogs Sat September 4th 7:20 EST (Gabba)

Who will win and by how much?

  • Lions by a goal or less

    Votes: 3 2.7%
  • Dogs by a goal or less

    Votes: 8 7.1%
  • Lions by 7 - 20

    Votes: 30 26.5%
  • Dogs by 7 - 20

    Votes: 46 40.7%
  • Lions by a lot

    Votes: 12 10.6%
  • Dogs by a lot

    Votes: 12 10.6%
  • Draw

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Total voters
    113
  • Poll closed .

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PenfoldsFan

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I just think you're deliberately ignoring the fact that part of the reason for the inquiry was that they had given interstate teams a lot of concessions via draft and Salary Cap COLA and they were worried that they'd gone too far.
No need for an inquiry into the Vic teams generally because they haven't been given concessions of the same nature.
Having said that after Hawthorn's fast 2008 success they did review the priority pick system as they felt that contributed too much to Hawthorn's success. So when they do give concessions to Vic teams they do also review those periodically.
Ok, lets look at things that have been implemented since that inquiry starting with the two new teams, until they entered the league we had 10 sides in Victoria and 6 outside.
Its a given that Victoria breeds the most talent through sheer weight of numbers and they head interstate as theres only 400odd list spots available within all of Victoria, problem is, there was only 240 spots outside Victoria at that time.
Victoria cant support that kind of in balance because you cant trade back enough every year to top off your lists without leaving interstate clubs gutted as that would lead to some pretty ordinary matches week to week, so the only way to fast track your rebuilds is to have enough developing talent outside Victoria and the only way to do that without becoming too noticeable is having more spots to draw from, enter GC/GWS and another 80odd spots.
Sure they're promoted as the AFL's babies and how could they possibly be not intended to succeed but despite their draft concessions they haven't achieved anything of note apart from one poor GF showing. Truth is there is more to gain from an AFL perspective in Tom Lynch helping Richmond to a 2nd and 3rd flag than putting bums on seats on the GC, same to with JC and many more.

Conveniently around the same time they introduced free agency, it was touted as an avenue for homesick players to return home after they'd given good service to their drafting clubs but lets be honest, as Vic produces the most 18yr olds it also will be the place many of those developed 26yo's head back to and conveniently right on the cusp of their prime footballing years.
Now lets look at the last 14 seasons since the inquiry, Vic teams have won 12 of 14 flags and only missed a 13th by a kick with 5 in a row 2 times, yes COLA and state teams gifted to new entries during the 80's and 90's saw us get on a run but nothing like the run you guys have had post inquiry so is it now fair to say that you guys are getting the better end of the stick to a much greater degree and its about time this was looked into?
Problem is it isnt a problem for the AFL powerbrokers anymore as they're getting their wins so there wont be a need to revisit it.

My side is stacked full of talent, our journey is much different to those of Vic clubs, we need to build a young list and capitalise before the core group hit free agency because at that point they'll leave for the 'big clubs' and the lifestyle that comes with it, this is undeniable as there has been and endless stream of KP players heading back to Vic clubs, far more than the other way around or non Vic to non Vic.
Sure we'll get picks in return but thats just the cycle repeating.
That we were able to keep Travis Boak has always been a point of interest considering the pressure put on him by Geelong, a credit to the man and probably a lot of the reason why we haven't suffered the same fate as other pilfered interstate clubs.
Problem is, our youth needs to contend with your mature aged bigger bodies in their prime when we get to the pointy end if we are to reach the top of the mountain and it seems to be a bridge too far of late.
Can we do it, yes, is it likely, history of late suggests not.

Anyway thats how i see it and im sure there will be plenty of people suggesting im paranoid etc. etc. but the principle is sound, you take back more than you lose and our only chance is to snag one with a developing list before you come knocking.
 
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Hoges64

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Agreed 100%, the knee lift was purely a instinctive defensive reaction as a result of finding himself under the ball with an opponent charging at him.
Just call play on and let them fight it out for the remainder, with scores level it would have been either a draw and extra time or a result score from either side for the win.
I think had that happened most neutrals would have accepted the shithouse umpiring performance throughout the previous 2 hours as what we've come to expect and moved on but we all knew, well, those who have been on the wrong end of these sh*t decisions for 30 years, that the second Brisbane squared the ledger there would be a centre square free kick awarded to put the ball in the Dogs forward line for advantage.

When the Lions squared it up my Wife who only loosely follows the game said what happens if its a draw, i said dont concern yourself with it, they'll pay the Dogs a free from the centre and they will score, as soon as the whistle went she turned and looked at me in surprise, i just rolled my eyes and said ive seen this movie plenty of times in 30yrs.
Cool story bro, needed more Dragons though.
 

Noidnadroj

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To be clear, I felt we got ripped off in isolation last night. It's not even up for debate 10-2 frees in the last 1/4 where ever single contest was crucial is enough proof - debate over. Any oppo fans would feel that way after a loss in a final. You would too.

I get you are the most hated team in Australia right now, silly petitions, being called cheats, thousands of comments questioning the validity of your win, 16 teams uniting behind Port, saying its an AFL conspiracy etc - it's pretty OTT.

Just so you know though, I don't subscribe to those theories - I am just annoyed about getting robbed last night. But.. I get why you guys are so triggered by oppo supporters venting about being slaughtered by the umpires and why you won't just move on with your win, given how much universal hate you are copping.
In all seriousness… taking the last quarter into account, which specific decisions were blatantly incorrect against the Lions - not ‘rub of the green’, but blatant umpiring errors? I counted a few errors both ways. Keep in mind OOF I believe are counted as frees against.


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RU_

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This one?

1. Eyes are on English not the ball, checks his run slighjtly and starts to raise the right leg.


2. To then lead and follow through with the the raised knee to block.View attachment 1227275View attachment 1227276
But that happens CONSISTENTLY in every game. It just fitted the part to pay the Dogs a free at such a pivotal time. Scores are even and there’s a minute left, let them play. We wouldn’t have been in this situation if 90 seconds earlier the HTB call on the dogs player who dragged it in got paid.
 

brutus76

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Caleb should have tried taking the ball with his hands. But he would have obviously risked being tackled as he would have been low to the ground or even in his knees to do so.

Choosing to kick fleetingly under pressure even though it was the shankiest off the side of the foot kick ever it was his choice in that moment and it went OB. Clear free kick under the "insufficient intent" line.

Everyone's either heated or gloating. But no doubt Dogs got the rub of the green to slightly smear what was (I was in attendance) a cracking final of pressure intensity and excitement.

Anyone ******* on the Lions remember they were bottom 5 years ago. Been a pleasure to watch.

The Dogs were top 4 all year until the end of the season.

Only going for the Dee's as I have a lot of mates whose only memory are 88 and 00 and they weren't born in 64.
 

Dogs till i die

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Lions 69-59 clangers, 68-54 inside 50s, lost clearances 47-37 despite having the dominant ruckman on the ground, far more marks inside 50s, uncontested possessions 207-189.

Seems to me the Lions were less efficient with their ball use and had more than enough opportunities to win...........but it's the fee kick count their fans are focussing on, even though the Dogs did not directly score a goal directly from their frees.

Fagan is too smart to say "we wuz robbed" and thankfully for Lions fans will focus on his team's real flaws.
 

Back One Out

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But that happens CONSISTENTLY in every game. It just fitted the part to pay the Dogs a free at such a pivotal time. Scores are even and there’s a minute left, let them play. We wouldn’t have been in this situation if 90 seconds earlier the HTB call on the dogs player who dragged it in got paid.
C'mon mate... Face facts: it was a horribly dumb piece of ruckwork by McInerney. Especially at such a pivotal time in the match with scores level and less than 2 minutes on the clock. He took his eyes off the ball and stared at English; and then ran over the line straight at him and blocked English's attempt to leap.

The umpire was standing a metre away looking right at him. What did Big Oscar think was going to happen? He had dominated English all night: 40 hitouts to 22. So why make such a critical error at such a crucial moment of the match? He just gave it away.. What a dumb arse...

But I get it. It's much easier to blame the umpires for your team losing than to point the finger at your own team's players for their idiotic mistakes and poor execution. Most of your good players choked in the last quarter: Charlie Cameron, Dayne Zorko, Harris Andrews, Daniel Rich... Your midfield was beaten and a few of your forwards were next-to-useless (Daniher, Schache and Cockatoo).

The Lions only have themselves to blame. You had the home ground advantage, a 3 goal lead and you blew it.

Supporters just make themselves look like fools when they bleat about umps after losing a final, fair and square. Just suck it up, admit the better team won and save some dignity. Don't be like those Essendon, Collingwood, Adelaide and Port numpties who bleat about the umpires every time they lose a big game. People might feel better for having a sook, but everyone else just laughs at 'em and thinks they're arsehats.
 
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RU_

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C'mon mate... Face facts: it was a horribly dumb piece of ruckwork by McInerney. Especially at such a pivotal time in the match with scores level and less than 2 minutes on the clock. He took his eyes off the ball and stared at English; and then ran over the line straight at him and blocked English's attempt to leap.

The umpire was standing a metre away looking right at him. What did Big Oscar think was going to happen? He had dominated English all night: 40 hitouts to 22. So why make such a critical error at such a crucial moment of the match? He just gave it away.. What a dumb arse...

But I get it. It's much easier to blame the umpires for your team losing than to point the finger at your own team's players for their idiotic mistakes and poor execution. Most of your good players choked in the last quarter: Charlie Cameron, Dayne Zorko, Harris Andrews, Daniel Rich... Your midfield was beaten and a few of your forwards were next-to-useless (Daniher, Schache and Cockatoo).

The Lions only have themselves to blame. You had the home ground advantage, a 3 goal lead and you blew it.

Supporters just make themselves look like fools when they bleat about umps after losing a final, fair and square. Just suck it up, admit the better team won and save some dignity. Don't be like those Essendon, Collingwood, Adelaide and Port numpties who bleat about the umpires every time they lose a big game. People might feel better for having a sook, but everyone else just laughs at 'em and thinks they're arsehats.
We don’t look like fools though. The only supporters who think it was fair and square is the bulldogs. Name another time that the AFL community united like this over a bullshit ‘make team xxxxx win’ directive. Hmm let me guess, the 2016 AFL Grand Final. Check the AFL social media, everyone is United in the same thoughts except WB supporters. I watched it with a WB supporter last night who also agreed you got a decent rub of the green. Be like them, take the win but acknowledge that you had a helping hand.

End of the day you won and nothing is going to change that, but it was clearly influenced through the umpires. Had we got to play to the same rules we would have won by 5 goals.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of the finals series - you’re either gonna get shepherded through to another premiership or you’ll get stopped by one of the remaining 3 teams. Hopefully the latter. Good luck.

Edit - didn’t see you’re not a dogs supporter - post still stands. 80% of the AFL community is in agreeance that last night was an umpire assisted win.
 

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CarnTheScray

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We don’t look like fools though. The only supporters who think it was fair and square is the bulldogs. Name another time that the AFL community united like this over a bullshit ‘make team xxxxx win’ directive. Hmm let me guess, the 2016 AFL Grand Final. Check the AFL social media, everyone is United in the same thoughts except WB supporters. I watched it with a WB supporter last night who also agreed you got a decent rub of the green. Be like them, take the win but acknowledge that you had a helping hand.

End of the day you won and nothing is going to change that, but it was clearly influenced through the umpires. Had we got to play to the same rules we would have won by 5 goals.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of the finals series - you’re either gonna get shepherded through to another premiership or you’ll get stopped by one of the remaining 3 teams. Hopefully the latter. Good luck.

Edit - didn’t see you’re not a dogs supporter - post still stands. 80% of the AFL community is in agreeance that last night was an umpire assisted win.
Your hatred and bias seeps right through this. You sound like an entitled campaigner.
 

RU_

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Your hatred and bias seeps right through this. You sound like an entitled campaigner.
Nah. I accepted that Melbourne was better than us 2 weeks ago, they will be premiers this year.

I’m not going to accept that you didn’t get a massive umpiring advantage last night. Sure you won, but it was assisted. There is literally video footage of both teams having different rules sets being applied. Is what it is :).
 

CarnTheScray

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We don’t look like fools though. The only supporters who think it was fair and square is the bulldogs. Name another time that the AFL community united like this over a bullshit ‘make team xxxxx win’ directive. Hmm let me guess, the 2016 AFL Grand Final. Check the AFL social media, everyone is United in the same thoughts except WB supporters. I watched it with a WB supporter last night who also agreed you got a decent rub of the green. Be like them, take the win but acknowledge that you had a helping hand.

End of the day you won and nothing is going to change that, but it was clearly influenced through the umpires. Had we got to play to the same rules we would have won by 5 goals.

Anyway, enjoy the rest of the finals series - you’re either gonna get shepherded through to another premiership or you’ll get stopped by one of the remaining 3 teams. Hopefully the latter. Good luck.

Edit - didn’t see you’re not a dogs supporter - post still stands. 80% of the AFL community is in agreeance that last night was an umpire assisted win.
And who are you to say another team will be carried to another flag. Your club was looked after like babies by the AFL with things like enlarged cap space.
 

kaiserchief13

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Lions 69-59 clangers, 68-54 inside 50s, lost clearances 47-37 despite having the dominant ruckman on the ground, far more marks inside 50s, uncontested possessions 207-189.

Seems to me the Lions were less efficient with their ball use and had more than enough opportunities to win...........but it's the fee kick count their fans are focussing on, even though the Dogs did not directly score a goal directly from their frees.

Fagan is too smart to say "we wuz robbed" and thankfully for Lions fans will focus on his team's real flaws.
When a team wins/loses by 1 point umpiring decisions come into it. You could say Brisbane should have been better so umpiring didn't make a difference, but same could be said for Bulldogs. If Bulldogs were better then they wouldn't have needed umpiring decisions to be the difference but they weren't and the decisions were the difference
 

RU_

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And who are you to say another team will be carried to another flag. Your club was looked after like babies by the AFL with things like enlarged cap space.
I’m not gonna comment on this because I assume it was during the Bears merge? I was too young to understand what was happening during the merge.

The 2016 flag is literally asterisked by everyone except Bulldog supporters. At the end of the day though, every supporter would do what the Bulldogs are doing and refute the claims and bury their heads in the sand, I’d do the same - we all look through our team coloured glasses - except last night 80% of the community is looking through the Lions glasses.

Anyway, onto the future - gotta go speculate on the Neale go home factor now.

Good luck next week 👍🏻.
 

gordo2016

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And who are you to say another team will be carried to another flag. Your club was looked after like babies by the AFL with things like enlarged cap space.
Mate, he is the best. He has already polled 80% of the "AFL community" who told him last nights win was umpire assisted. He could be Santa. Uses a sleigh and reindeer to travel all around Australia and got the poll done in one night.
 

Igloo

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Nah. I accepted that Melbourne was better than us 2 weeks ago, they will be premiers this year.

I’m not going to accept that you didn’t get a massive umpiring advantage last night. Sure you won, but it was assisted. There is literally video footage of both teams having different rules sets being applied. Is what it is :).
That's very true. We got pinged for a throw, then 30 seconds later Zorko thought he was a boundary ump and launched it over his head, Lions got a goal out of it. So we can strike that goal off the score for you.
As well as in the last quarter Neale got a VERY soft in the back free kick against Libba, who rolled him in the tackle. Now if anyone can watch Vandermeer's rushed behind in the last minute and say that's not in the back, I'd question their ability to understand the game. So we'll just give Vanders that free kick, probably slots it since he's 2m out, put us down for another 6 points. So we're at 72-84 at this point.
Now we better take off Fullarton's goal as well, since Zorko was holding Smith so he couldn't impact the contest. So we'll just drop the Lions down to 66, for the sake of fairness.
It's very fair of you to bring to light these indiscretions on the Dogs players. I know we won, but you really wanted everyone to see that one team truly did deserve the win. So kudos to you.
 

Noidnadroj

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Mate, he is the best. He has already polled 80% of the "AFL community" who told him last nights win was umpire assisted. He could be Santa. Uses a sleigh and reindeer to travel all around Australia and got the poll done in one night.
Dogs received 10 free kicks in the last quarter. I’ve reviewed and 2 were OOF, 7 were correct and 1 was incorrect (mcinerney paid for a throw where it just bobbled out).

Then the other obvious error against Brisbane was HTB not paid against Dale.

Other than emotional reactions to losing, I’ve yet to hear which actual decisions (in addition to Dale HTB) it was that robbed the Lions? In that last quarter almost all of them were absolutely no-brainer decisions.

Obviously the timing of the Dale one is what has brought the umpiring into focus - particularly when closely followed by the ruck infringement, which was a standard decision whenever a ruckman runs under the ball and just collects his opponent without touching the ball.

If Neale had kicked the goal from the Daniel deliberate and Lions won the Dogs fans would be losing their minds in here instead of Lions fans. And most impartial supporters would be saying it was an umpiring howler that cost the Dogs the game.

It’s an emotional game and Dogs got the rub
of the green, but no more than most games where one side usually gets a few more decisions go their way.

I wouldn’t be surprised if a footy head journo (Whately perhaps) does some deeper analysis and we can get an educated review of what actually happened. Maybe Lions were robbed… it just wasn’t what I saw on the night or when analysing the last quarter decisions.


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RU_

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That's very true. We got pinged for a throw, then 30 seconds later Zorko thought he was a boundary ump and launched it over his head, Lions got a goal out of it. So we can strike that goal off the score for you.
As well as in the last quarter Neale got a VERY soft in the back free kick against Libba, who rolled him in the tackle. Now if anyone can watch Vandermeer's rushed behind in the last minute and say that's not in the back, I'd question their ability to understand the game. So we'll just give Vanders that free kick, probably slots it since he's 2m out, put us down for another 6 points. So we're at 72-84 at this point.
Now we better take off Fullarton's goal as well, since Zorko was holding Smith so he couldn't impact the contest. So we'll just drop the Lions down to 66, for the sake of fairness.
It's very fair of you to bring to light these indiscretions on the Dogs players. I know we won, but you really wanted everyone to see that one team truly did deserve the win. So kudos to you.
😂😂

We could go on with this all night, I’m not gonna go back through the replay to pinpoint moments, one that comes to mind though is the Bont getting paid a mark over Oscar who had first hands to it and his jumper literally 500mm off his body in the hand of English.

You know you got every 50/50 call and we didn’t, anything that could give you an advantage was paid and anything that could give us an advantage wasn’t.

Enjoy the rest of the finals 👍🏻.
 

Igloo

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😂😂

We could go on with this all night, I’m not gonna go back through the replay to pinpoint moments, one that comes to mind though is the Bont getting paid a mark over Oscar who had first hands to it and his jumper literally 500mm off his body in the hand of English.

You know you got every 50/50 call and we didn’t, anything that could give you an advantage was paid and anything that could give us an advantage wasn’t.

Enjoy the rest of the finals 👍🏻.
We could. Which is a perfect demonstration of why it's ridiculous to suggest that the Lions were robbed. Both teams had free kicks paid/not paid. No game is ever being perfectly umpired. We can reel off the frees that were missed for us as well. Some that resulted in a scoring shot for you, and others that took away a scoring shot for us.

If that's what you need to tell yourself to cope, all power to you. There's been some embarrassing posts by Lions supporters in the last 24 hours.
 

RU_

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We could. Which is a perfect demonstration of why it's ridiculous to suggest that the Lions were robbed. Both teams had free kicks paid/not paid. No game is ever being perfectly umpired. We can reel off the frees that were missed for us as well. Some that resulted in a scoring shot for you, and others that took away a scoring shot for us.

If that's what you need to tell yourself to cope, all power to you. There's been some embarrassing posts by Lions supporters in the last 24 hours.
Mate, this is going to be my last post on the matter.

Go back through and read the posts in the game day thread yesterday during the match. It was a clear thought that the Dogs were getting a significant rub of the green, the only ones who didn’t agree were Bulldog supporters.

Agree to disagree, I don’t give a fu** as it’s not going to change the result.

For the third time, best of luck next week. 👍🏻
 

stefcep

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But that happens CONSISTENTLY in every game. It just fitted the part to pay the Dogs a free at such a pivotal time. Scores are even and there’s a minute left, let them play. We wouldn’t have been in this situation if 90 seconds earlier the HTB call on the dogs player who dragged it in got paid.
Instead of blaming it on a pre-determined outcome from the umpires your ruck would better off learning from it for the next time his team is level with a minute or so to go in a semi.
That's very true. We got pinged for a throw, then 30 seconds later Zorko thought he was a boundary ump and launched it over his head, Lions got a goal out of it. So we can strike that goal off the score for you.
As well as in the last quarter Neale got a VERY soft in the back free kick against Libba, who rolled him in the tackle. Now if anyone can watch Vandermeer's rushed behind in the last minute and say that's not in the back, I'd question their ability to understand the game. So we'll just give Vanders that free kick, probably slots it since he's 2m out, put us down for another 6 points. So we're at 72-84 at this point.
Now we better take off Fullarton's goal as well, since Zorko was holding Smith so he couldn't impact the contest. So we'll just drop the Lions down to 66, for the sake of fairness.
It's very fair of you to bring to light these indiscretions on the Dogs players. I know we won, but you really wanted everyone to see that one team truly did deserve the win. So kudos to you.
That Zorko throw and the goal had all of us at home go ballistic.

And you can add Bontempelli's goal called touched where there was clearly insufficient evidence to say it was actually touched from the blurry footage.

In fact the video reviewers didn't say it was touched-only that the ball "deviated".

Footballs when kicked can swing, some kicks swing early, same late, that's a fact, even when they are not touched.

Whatever caused the deviation, it was not a clear umpiring mistake and the goal should not have been over-ruled.

What are we at now 66-90?
 

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