Autopsy AFL 2021 Round 17 - Tigers v Pies Sun July 11th 4:10pm EST (MCG)

[TiggerMan22]

Because a flag is a flag is a flag.

Whether it was won in 2010 or 1910, it’s a flag. I don’t subscribe to the argument of, ‘ow you weren’t born when XYZ won their flag’. It’s a silly argument to make.

I’ve got a 4 month old baby. She hasn’t had a Richmond flag in her lifetime. Doesn’t make your premierships any less relevant.

How is it a silly argument to make? You think a flag in 1910 is worth the same as a flag today?

-The game itself is completely different.

How is this -
Is equal to this -

-The league is completely different with going VFL to AFL.
-The teams are completely different. 7/18 current teams were around in the same form as they were in 1910.
-It was a part time time side thing. Its a full time profession now.

Its a bit ridiculous to think a flag 110 years ago is worth the same as the one today.

And what do the 1910 and 1920 flags mean to you? Games that you never saw, with player you don't know, playing in a unrecognizable style, with barely any footage that even exists. How is that worth the same as a flag you saw last year? You're literally just looking at numbers on a screen. It means nothing except for an attempt to have bragging rights.


I never saw the 1980 grand final, but at least I can go watch that right now. Its at least real. And even then it means fairly little.

 

[HTT]

Again, I don’t subscribe to this. There are hundreds of thousands of Richmond supporters who’ve probably never watched their team win a flag live. They watched it on TV. What’s the difference between a 20 year old watching it on TV and watching the 1980 GF on a video?

I was 3 years old when Collingwood won in 1990 - I don’t remember it though as I was too young. I know the script though, I know Millane played that finals series with a broken thumb, I know BT missed out, I know Gavin Brown got knocked out at QT. I’ve watched, and memorised that GF more than the 2010 GF and I was actually there at the 2010 replay.

I've watched the 1974 and 1980 GFs countless times. I know the stories behind each of them.
I know the full story behind the Hafey era, the build up under Len Smith, the players steely resolve following missing the finals in 1966. Royce Hart playing through a knee injury in 1973 to achieve the ultimate redemption against Carlton.

I watched the 2020 GF as it happened, on TV. The difference is I not only know the story behind the game, I remember how I felt at each point. I remember midway through the second quarter realising it just might not be our night (and can now chuckle when Bruce says 'Geelong are going to be hard to catch'). I remember going ballistic when Dusty put us in front halfway through the third quarter, and best of all I remember the moment Jack Riewoldt took a mark inside 50 late, the moment I realised we couldn't lose. And then almost missing Dusty's last goal as I was dancing through the house.

I have very much the same stories for 2017 and 2019, for which I was fortunate enough to be at the ground for. It's just a completely different set of emotions.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Again, I don’t subscribe to this. There are hundreds of thousands of Richmond supporters who’ve probably never watched their team win a flag live. They watched it on TV. What’s the difference between a 20 year old watching it on TV and watching the 1980 GF on a video?

I was 3 years old when Collingwood won in 1990 - I don’t remember it though as I was too young. I know the script though, I know Millane played that finals series with a broken thumb, I know BT missed out, I know Gavin Brown got knocked out at QT. I’ve watched, and memorised that GF more than the 2010 GF and I was actually there at the 2010 replay.

Everything. You don't have the context around the flag or the teams or the history. Was it unexpected? Did we dominate all year? How big is this occasion? Are these two juggernauts of the last decade goign at each other? What are the expectations?

Theres no connection to the players. What did they go through to get there? Who do you like watching play? Who really stood up and played above their normal level?

Its not about watching it live. Its about following the team through the journey to a flag. If someone never watched a game and attends the grand final they are going its going to have no emotional impact. If someone has watched every game for 10 seasons they could miss the game and just look at the end score and it would have more of an impact on them.

And yes you weren't there for the 1990 one, but you know the context and you have watched it over and over again to get some kind of emotional attachment to the team. How do you feel about the 1903 flag? Is that equal to the 1990 or 2010 one?

 

[Carringbush2010]

And we own more silverware than them.

Not lately.

 

[PieLebo87]

How is it a silly argument to make? You think a flag in 1910 is worth the same as a flag today?

-The game itself is completely different.

How is this -
Is equal to this -

-The league is completely different with going VFL to AFL.
-The teams are completely different. 7/18 current teams were around in the same form as they were in 1910.
-It was a part time time side thing. Its a full time profession now.

Its a bit ridiculous to think a flag 110 years ago is worth the same as the one today.

And what do the 1910 and 1920 flags mean to you? Games that you never saw, with player you don't know, playing in a unrecognizable style, with barely any footage that even exists. How is that worth the same as a flag you saw last year? You're literally just looking at numbers on a screen. It means nothing except for an attempt to have bragging rights.


I never saw the 1980 grand final, but at least I can go watch that right now. Its at least real. And even then it means fairly little.

When a supporter of the Tasmanian Devils in 2080 tries telling your great grand kids that the Tigers of 2019-2020 are amateurs and Dusty is nothing compared to their back to back side, I guess because they weren’t around for this Tigers back to back side, they would be right.

 

[PieLebo87]

And yes you weren't there for the 1990 one, but you know the context and you have watched it over and over again to get some kind of emotional attachment to the team. How do you feel about the 1903 flag? Is that equal to the 1990 or 2010 one?

Can’t say much about the 1903 premiers, but the 1927-1930 4peaters were around 60 years before I was born, but they built a reputation which has survived generations of Collingwood faithful. I can tell you off the top of my head they had two of the best two sets of brothers in the competition that had multiple Brownlows between them. Up until Lockett, the best goalkicker the competition would ever see for another 80 years, coached by the club’s greatest ever coach.

I know this because I respect the club’s history, and choose to cherish its memories instead of downplaying it.

What the heck is the point of it all, why is Clarko winning 4 flags, why is Plugger kicking 1300+ goals, Dusty winning 3 Norm Smiths if future generations will just spit at it and dismiss it because it happened when they weren’t around?

 

[No SPIN]

Yep you’ve showed us these last 5 years while you’ve been “owning” us we’ve been collecting silverware. Just remember we’ve won more flags in the last 4 years than you’ve won in the last 60.

Anyone who’s been patiently waiting for 56 years, to get a meaningless one up on a rival team, needs to be admired.

 

[dean33]

Anyone who’s been patiently waiting for 56 years, to get a meaningless one up on a rival team, needs to be admired.

Actually if you want the total tally in the last 60 years it’s
Richmond 8 flags
Collingwood 2 flags

 

[PieLebo87]

About 4 goals from frees to Collingwood?

Soft as

View attachment IMG_6274.MOV

You’re right.

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

Actually if you want the total tally in the last 60 years it’s
Richmond 8 flags
Collingwood 2 flags

Why stop in the last 60 years?

Why not go back to 1897 when the VFL started?

 

[dean33]

Why stop in the last 60 years?

Why not go back to 1897 when the VFL started?

Yes I know the pies won most of their flags when players wore knickerbockers however it’s hard to find the blurays for those grand finals.

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

Yes I know the pies won most of their flags when players wore knickerbockers however it’s hard to find the blurays for those grand finals.

They all count mate

 

[dean33]

They all count mate

Call me crazy however I’d prefer a flag I actually experienced at the ground celebrating with family and friends instead of reading about in history books, but hey that’s just me.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I think the west coast game demoralised them and they haven’t recovered. After saints game I thought we’d bounce back although with no confidence.

There's that aspect, but also the "If it bleeds, we can kill it" side from the opposition's perspective. Absolutely no doubt a big part of Collingwood's 3/4 time address would have been "Look at their last three games - this game is absolutely winnable".

It's hard to gauge that opposition aspect, but I reckon it's more important than people think: that in their primes, if Geelong at GMHBA or Richmond at the MCG got up by 3-4 goals, maybe 5-10% of that genuine belief dropped from their opponents, and that's fatal.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that after not coughing up a significant lead in seven years, between the famous West Coast at Kardinia capitulation in 2006 and the McGrath game in 2013, Geelong did it again against Adelaide a few weeks later. And then of course in the preliminary final. But personally, I reckon Hawthorn had seen what had happened with Geelong over the previous two months and went into the fourth quarter genuinely believing it was a 50/50 game. I know I did at the time.

 

[dean33]

There's that aspect, but also the "If it bleeds, we can kill it" side from the opposition's perspective. Absolutely no doubt a big part of Collingwood's 3/4 time address would have been "Look at their last three games - this game is absolutely winnable".

It's hard to gauge that opposition aspect, but I reckon it's more important than people think: that in their primes, if Geelong at GMHBA or Richmond at the MCG got up by 3-4 goals, maybe 5-10% of that genuine belief dropped from their opponents, and that's fatal.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that after not coughing up a significant lead in seven years, between the famous West Coast at Kardinia capitulation in 2006 and the McGrath game in 2013, Geelong did it again against Adelaide a few weeks later. And then of course in the preliminary final. But personally, I reckon Hawthorn had seen what had happened with Geelong over the previous two months and went into the fourth quarter genuinely believing it was a 50/50 game. I know I did at the time.

No doubt, we’ve lost our fear factor which often has teams beaten before the game has begun. Once you lose that and the opposition have the belief you are beatable it makes things much tougher. That coupled with a horrendous injury list and some senior players nearing the end has seen a dramatic drop.
I still feel with an astute draft and trade period and a full preseason we can bounce back into finals next year.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Can’t say much about the 1903 premiers, but the 1927-1930 4peaters were around 60 years before I was born, but they built a reputation which has survived generations of Collingwood faithful. I can tell you off the top of my head they had two of the best two sets of brothers in the competition that had multiple Brownlows between them. Up until Lockett, the best goalkicker the competition would ever see for another 80 years, coached by the club’s greatest ever coach.

I know this because I respect the club’s history, and choose to cherish its memories instead of downplaying it.

What the heck is the point of it all, why is Clarko winning 4 flags, why is Plugger kicking 1300+ goals, Dusty winning 3 Norm Smiths if future generations will just spit at it and dismiss it because it happened when they weren’t around?

I think you missed the point completely. It's not irrelevant because it happened a while ago it's irrelevant because the state of the league then compared to now.

It wasn't professional, there were only a few teams, there wernt drafts, the rules were completely different, it was the VFL etc etc etc.
And a major one is footage. There Is almost no footage of any of that ara. Even if you wanted to see it you can't.
In 100 years you will still be able to watch entire games of this era.

 

[TiggerMan22]

When a supporter of the Tasmanian Devils in 2080 tries telling your great grand kids that the Tigers of 2019-2020 are amateurs and Dusty is nothing compared to their back to back side, I guess because they weren’t around for this Tigers back to back side, they would be right.

Swing and a miss. I can tell them to go watch the games and see for themselves. It's also a competitive AFL league v a competitive AFL league. Not a competitive AFL league v an amateur VFL league.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Why stop in the last 60 years?

Why not go back to 1897 when the VFL started?

Game was a little different back in 1897.

 

[dean33]

Why stop in the last 60 years?

Why not go back to 1897 when the VFL started?

 

[PonsfordMagpie]

View attachment 1177548

I happen to agree with him, but I'm just stating facts as well.

 

[PieLebo87]

View attachment 1177548

The weekend’s result still eating away at you Deano?

 

[dean33]

The weekend’s result still eating away at you Deano?

Not at all just found it interesting that a favourite son reiterated what I posted a few days ago. 2 in 62… wow I was thinking it was only 60.