Autopsy AFL 2023 Round 8 - Suns v Demons Sat May 6th 4:35pm AEST (Heritage Stadium)

[Demonic Ascent]

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Yep another ridiculous decision driven by media outrage. You were right, I shouldn't have expected a rational decision by Christian but hopefully MFC appeal. If not it gives JVR a great chance to freshen up before taking on Carlton and Collingwood before the bye.

 

[Elixuh]

Yep another ridiculous decision driven by media outrage. You were right, I shouldn't have expected a rational decision by Christian but hopefully MFC appeal. If not it gives JVR a great chance to freshen up before taking on Carlton and Collingwood before the bye.

Was a grub act and a dog shot. Glad he has been rubbed out. TBH probably makes the Dees a stronger team anyway so I wouldn't be too upset as a Dees fan.

 

[TheSunGod]

Ease up mate the flag they won was AFL gifted with handouts. Coaching and management placements outside the cap. Blind eye to tanking. But let’s talk about how good Melbourne are

Meh. They’re a Clayton Oliver injury away from oblivion.

 

[TheSunGod]

if you had to personify the maxim "money can not buy class" the first thing you would look to is a melbourne supporter

I know a few lovely Melbourne supporters. They just don’t appear to be on the main board.

 

[Elixuh]

I know a few lovely Melbourne supporters. They just don’t appear to be on the main board.

The main board is where the lunatic fringe of each supporter base converges

 

[#23 Hill]

Our forward line is a huge issue. Nice to be on top of the ladder but we really aren’t making a dent in finals unless that’s sorted and sorted fast.

You're not on top of the ladder.

 

[Saab NLAW]

Oh dear how will I cope.

Boy you really addressed the point too. Outstanding analysis


Are there really demons fans in denial about this?

Addressed what point, your incoherent dribble?

If you had of mashed the keyboard with your face you probably would have produced something more intelligent.

 

[PhatBoy]

Addressed what point, your incoherent dribble?

If you had of mashed the keyboard with your face you probably would have produced something more intelligent.

Everything I posted was a fact. Your inability to explain why it should be viewed differently is not some sort of definitive proof that your position is correct.

Melbourne butchered pick after pick before they finally got it right. Prove me wrong genius.

 

[demondavey]

You're not on top of the ladder.

Does it matter?

 

[PhatBoy]

Does it matter?

You are one of the most insightful and even handed posters on this site. What is your opinion on the Demons at the moment?

Watching them on Saturday there was an element of some of the past Cats sides that had this top 6-7 players that were absolutely on another level to their opposition in terms of class but it looked like they weren’t getting as much from their lower end.

 

[#23 Hill]

Does it matter?

Only if you want to be accurate.

 

[demondavey]

Only if you want to be accurate.

Well at the time of me posting, we were on top. That’s accurate.

 

[#23 Hill]

Well at the time of me posting, we were on top. That’s accurate.

That was accurate.

 

[demondavey]

You are one of the most insightful and even handed posters on this site. What is your opinion on the Demons at the moment?

Watching them on Saturday there was an element of some of the past Cats sides that had this top 6-7 players that were absolutely on another level to their opposition in terms of class but it looked like they weren’t getting as much from their lower end.

I appreciate the compliment.

My opinion is that I think they are going ok. We have some issues with our forward line that I’d hope we can straighten out by finals, and it boils down to our KF starting players. Petty is a bit of a swingman that is great down back as the third tall but also is handy as a forward, personally I like him up forward.

We are going to need to rely on Grundy and Gawn for 2 each I’d say, because Goodwin will be playing both. So one rests up forward. If Ben Brown is fit he will probably play. So that means we’d potentially have Brown and a ruckman in 50. The issue with that is mobility; how will those two go chasing fleet footed defences? Not well. Pickett, Spargo, ANB become critical as tackling forwards and chasers. Chandler also. The tackle and pressure stats in our forward line need to be high. We need to be flys on dirt when opposition gets the ball in our 50 and be adding serious pressure so opposition footy goes in grubby. We aren’t a clinical team like Geelong or Collingwood by foot.

A lot of this comes back to the midfield and how we use the ball. If we just hack it long and high then we are pretty useless, and that’s an issue with Oliver and Viney at times. We need measured delivery if we are going to play tall and less mobile. Seems obvious but it’s big with us.

Like anything these days, if opposition midfielders get on top then they can move it and put any defence under pressure. Our defensive transition also needs to be organised. It’s important that Rivers, Bowey and Brayshaw hit basic field targets and allow Langdon and Hunter to run.

May and Lever haven’t been in great touch but there’s plenty of time to sort that. They are critical. Last year masked a lot of issues at round 10, I am hoping being a bit more aware of that can help us this year. Top 6 are damn important; Gawn, May, lever, Petracca, Oliver, Fritsch. I think a lot of it comes down to those guys having really good games because they bring in the other crowd; Pickett, rivers, Spargo, ANB, Petty, Chandler.

Right now we are behind Collingwood and Geelong, I personally think. And probably Brisbane. I do think our best is absolutely good enough but there is plenty to do. The big one will be the forward line; will Goodwin keep going back to McDonald and Brown or back a mobile and medium forward line with Gawn or Grundy? Tall defenders will be hard to beat for ANB, Spargo, Fritsch, Chandler, Pickett. And while JVR has shown a lot he is going to get tired.

Personally I’d like to see Petracca getting forward a lot more and kicking 2-3 in big games. He is that match up that becomes hard. Pickett rolling through the midfield is also an ace card as he is very dynamic and gives us legs outside of some of the heavier bodies. The key for Melbourne is Goodwin getting variety and also not sticking to his favourite players. If we are winning without Brown and McDonald, they shouldn’t be picked.

 

[demondavey]

Everything I posted was a fact. Your inability to explain why it should be viewed differently is not some sort of definitive proof that your position is correct.

Melbourne butchered pick after pick before they finally got it right. Prove me wrong genius.

I think to be fair, pre Roos we were butchering most things. If we had picked the same players under the Bailey and Neeld administrations we would have struggled. We were bad. I don’t think you can get that many picks wrong. Melbourne were basket case material for 7 years post Daniher.

The culture of the place was subpar. You need to look no further than Colin Sylvia at that time. We are talking a player who could have been anything. He literally got around on raw talent and minimal development or standard that would be deemed acceptable of elite clubs. Watts the same. Watts is a good one; made to debut as a kid about 78kg wringing wet on QB. All because he was pick one. Contrast that to Jacob Van Rooyen who was made to play two years in the VFL before playing seniors. As a senior player, he looks much better and much more physically organised than Watts ever did.

A part of our issue was our medical side. We never got players fit, through injuries or ready because we just weren’t a good organisation. Trengove a great example. 2009 Geelong would have organised so many careers the right way. I feel bad for a lot of players who went through the MFC in those years, we ruined a lot of potentially brilliant players because we were inept and amateur.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think to be fair, pre Roos we were butchering most things. If we had picked the same players under the Bailey and Neeld administrations we would have struggled. We were bad. I don’t think you can get that many picks wrong. Melbourne were basket case material for 7 years post Daniher.

The culture of the place was subpar. You need to look no further than Colin Sylvia at that time. We are talking a player who could have been anything. He literally got around on raw talent and minimal development or standard that would be deemed acceptable of elite clubs. Watts the same. Watts is a good one; made to debut as a kid about 78kg wringing wet on QB. All because he was pick one. Contrast that to Jacob Van Rooyen who was made to play two years in the VFL before playing seniors. As a senior player, he looks much better and much more physically organised than Watts ever did.

A part of our issue was our medical side. We never got players fit, through injuries or ready because we just weren’t a good organisation. Trengove a great example. 2009 Geelong would have organised so many careers the right way. I feel bad for a lot of players who went through the MFC in those years, we ruined a lot of potentially brilliant players because we were inept and amateur.

A very fair and reasoned response

 

[demondavey]

This. The volume of player and coach careers Melbourne destroyed over a lengthy period would need an accountant to work out. At least the suns have an excuse being away from home for most draftees and having started from nothing. The demons are the oldest club in the world and still managed to fritter away handout after handout until it became virtually impossible for them to fail simply through the volume of elite players they picked up

On this.

And whilst true, we did make a significant shift the right way under Paul Roos. That’s undeniable. I’ll argue with anyone that he was the catalyst in turning us around. Simple philosophies of work rate, defence and system. Melbourne had no defence. None. Regularly getting a hiding to big margins. Roos if anything was a dour and defensive coach, and we needed to be boring. In 2015 we beat Geelong at Geelong. In 2016 we beat Hawthorn after regularly getting hammered beyond recognition by them.

We finally cracked through to finals in 2018 then had a bit of list organisation before 2021. Personally I feel if we don’t win this year it’s a missed opportunity. Yes Collingwood are great, as are a few others, but we are talking peak Gawn, May etc and you don’t get guys like that overly often so this is a big chance.

 

[demondavey]

I’m not talking about the helping hand of 2013. I’m talking about year after year of good draft picks and just wasting them until percentages dictated it couldn’t happen any more.

Melbourne deserved their flag and I for one was and still am actually happy for them that they got their act together but f*** me the notion of a Demons fan giving it to the Suns about being gifted handouts and making nothing of it and being a plastic franchise is just ridiculous. Melbourne have the oldest history in the game. That ALONE should be enough for them to be making themselves a destination club, like Souths have done in the NRL.

That it took that long for it to happen though is not something to allow you to put s*t on other clubs. The amount of top 10 picks that DID play in that flag only further serves to highlight how bad some of the selections had been before that - Watts, Scully, Toumpas, Hogan, Trengove, Howe etc (I know they aren’t all top ten picks). Yes some of those guys were serviceable but f** they didn’t give much bang for buck did they.

Of that list I reckon Toumpas was a bust. Howe is an elite defender. Hogan is an above average KPF. Scully did ok but had a lot of injury issues, I think Hawthorn did reasonably with him on that front.

Melbourne failed Watts and Trengove. If either went to good clubs at the time then their careers may have been vastly better. Watts was probably forced to take a defender who manhandled him every week and only really showed a bit under Roos. I honestly don’t think he worked overly hard or had much mongrel in him.

I reckon a good medical team might have sorted Trengove, but I feel we totally rushed him.

 

[PhatBoy]

On this.

And whilst true, we did make a significant shift the right way under Paul Roos. That’s undeniable. I’ll argue with anyone that he was the catalyst in turning us around. Simple philosophies of work rate, defence and system. Melbourne had no defence. None. Regularly getting a hiding to big margins. Roos if anything was a dour and defensive coach, and we needed to be boring. In 2015 we beat Geelong at Geelong. In 2016 we beat Hawthorn after regularly getting hammered beyond recognition by them.

We finally cracked through to finals in 2018 then had a bit of list organisation before 2021. Personally I feel if we don’t win this year it’s a missed opportunity. Yes Collingwood are great, as are a few others, but we are talking peak Gawn, May etc and you don’t get guys like that overly often so this is a big chance.

I would never argue otherwise I feel the same about the decision to make Tom Harley captain at Geelong (yes he actually PLAYED in flags so it’s a bit more obvious than Roos who laid groundwork for one he had no direct involvement in). That was a catalyst for what would come later and was more publicly acknowledged as being the arrival of Selwood, the Paul Chapman factor when from memory he gave a few of his teammates a rocket - those things definitely helped but Harley gave us a genuine leader, a calm head, and he got us to a point where selfish or flashy but un-influential players were the exception rather than the rule and a guy like Steve Johnson who played for himself or Cam Mooney who was losing control every other week were last men standing of that era of dickheads and had to change to fit in.

Roos very much had a huge role in changing your culture

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Was a grub act and a dog shot. Glad he has been rubbed out. TBH probably makes the Dees a stronger team anyway so I wouldn't be too upset as a Dees fan

 

[Elixuh]

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I’ve never seen so much excitement to the news that a below average vfl forward has gotten off a charge!

 

[Demonic Ascent]

I’ve never seen so much excitement to the news that a below average vfl forward has gotten off a charge!

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Was a grub act and a dog shot. Glad he has been rubbed out.

It's ok to admit you went overboard with your wowserism and got it wrong. Next time maybe give the pearl clutching a rest so you don't end up looking so silly.

"Dog shot" "grub act"