Autopsy AFL 2025 Rd 10 - Suns v Hawks - Thurs May 15th 7:30pm AEST (TIO)

[Dewyyyyy]

Yep, Rowell is no good.

Other clubs should stop trying to recruit him.


Please.

Nice one buddy

He can come play in Melbourne and eat MCG grass weekly

 

[SSSSSS]

Going up and having your arms chopped isn’t the same as driving your head into people and then throwing the head back.

I don't like the head throwing action but I don't mind little guys going in hard and low and getting rewarded if the tackle is poor.

Anderson nailed a beautiful tackle. Went low and got the Wiz at the hips. No free. If you're clumsy and get someone high then it should be a free.

You gotta give the little short people something. It's a big mans game.

 

[Mr Meow]

I’ve also watched his whole career, it’s not a hard thing and it doesn’t make you an expert if you’re wrong. I am not acting like it’s impeccable because it’s not but you’re acting like it’s diabolically bad. So it’s definitely somewhere inbetween which is fair, but decent is a severe understatement and you’re underrating that portion of his game. Considering I said it’s very good/good, and someone who I’d say has impeccable skills would be a smooth mover like Amon off half back for example. The consistency is the difference, but can also be the level of damage compared to genuine butchers.

I didn’t once say he’s an elite decision maker or skills? I think he is a damaging, good user and who can hit kicks that a lot can’t but I’d say that for someone like Petracca too (especially of old), and plenty of others. I didn’t call it elite because he isn’t consistent enough yet but it’s still a very good part of his game.

Saying I’m making excuses is crazy, if you’re in a worse team you’re going to have a harder time to get score involvements and goal assists because worse teams score less

The tier above ball butchers I’m telling you as a Hawthorn fan, I would prefer Newcombe kicking inside 50 to Day.

Humouring you, the better kicks, like your genuinely elite ones or very good would be:
D’Ambrosio, Amon, Sicily, Scrimshaw etc

There’s plenty that are just as good kicks but are less consistent which obviously happens aswell with positioning (playing in more congestion)

Like Newcombe, Ward, Mackenzie and Day, the former two being my clear choices for players to kick inside 50.

Even Worpel has improved this portion of his game, and players said they like having him kicking it into him (was a social thing from last year).

Then you have your forwards and half forwards like Moore, MacDonald, Watson, Ginnivan who are all pretty good users and big parts of the ball movement.

This is clear. But Newcombe is one of the most damaging players in the side because of his ability to win at the coalface, be a “leg driver” as David King likes to say, exploding from contest and breaking tackles. Having the ability to handball someone into space or breaking free (or already working into space in general play/marking around the ground) to then be damaging by foot.

We're at the point where things are going round in circles. However many hundred words I've spent explaining my stance on Jai Newcombe's decent but not outstanding ball use is about my limit. I've explained my observations, criteria, statistical inputs and comparisons.

Your time is probably better spent criticising those calling him a scrubber, B grader or not elite - none of which I said. I just don't think he's in the very most damaging users in the comp, nor do I think there is a massive gap in the output of his possessions compared to Rowell currently. You do. End of story.

 

[Mr Meow]

“Stats”.

James Peatling has more goal assists, clearly more polished.

Gawn averages more score involvements he’s a silky mover isn’t he?

Ben McKay has better disposal efficiency, god he doesn’t miss a target!!

You see why stats are irrelevant without context?

Watch to see how they get their disposals and how they use them, and off the ball. Stats used as a context buffer to that.

While there's some truth to that, damaging ball users from midfield generally rank in the very top tier for: goals, goal assists or score involvements - usually 2 or 3 of those categories for the most skilled/have the greatest hurt factor.

There is a reason the 10+ score involvement games with 2-4 combined goals/goal assists are generally raved about. Same with midfielders averaging a goal or a goal assist over a season. A combination of the two is better IMO because it doesn't discriminate against creators vs finishers (playing style), selfish vs unselfish.

Field positioning matters of course, especially for goals. So there is room to make distinctions for ultra skilled midfielders who were a bit more defensive, don't rotate forward etc. Sam Mitchell was probably in that category. But he was just obviously a better ball user than Newcombe, by a fair margin.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

We're at the point where things are going round in circles. However many hundred words I've spent explaining my stance on Jai Newcombe's decent but not outstanding ball use is about my limit. I've explained my observations, criteria, statistical inputs and comparisons.

Your time is probably better spent criticising those calling him a scrubber, B grader or not elite - none of which I said. I just don't think he's in the very most damaging users in the comp, nor do I think there is a massive gap in the output of his possessions compared to Rowell currently. You do. End of story.

You are acting like I’m being ignorant to the fact. But you’re quite literally doing the same by missing the obvious.

Let me just.

“We're at the point where things are going round in circles. However many hundred words I've spent explaining my stance on Jai Newcombe's damaging and very good ball use, and how you’re grossly underrating it, at about my limit. I've explained my observations, criteria, statistical inputs and comparisons”

There clearly is, and that’s okay if you can’t see it. End of story.

Also no point wasting time on people rage baiting

 

[Mr Meow]

You are acting like I’m being ignorant to the fact. But you’re quite literally doing the same by missing the obvious.

Let me just.

“We're at the point where things are going round in circles. However many hundred words I've spent explaining my stance on Jai Newcombe's damaging and very good ball use, and how you’re grossly underrating it, at about my limit. I've explained my observations, criteria, statistical inputs and comparisons”

There clearly is, and that’s okay if you can’t see it. End of story.

Also no point wasting time on people rage baiting

You think I'm rage baiting? Truly bizarre take.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

While there's some truth to that, damaging ball users from midfield generally rank in the very top tier for: goals, goal assists or score involvements - usually 2 or 3 of those categories for the most skilled/have the greatest hurt factor.

There is a reason the 10+ score involvement games with 2-4 combined goals/goal assists are generally raved about. Same with midfielders averaging a goal or a goal assist over a season. A combination of the two is better IMO because it doesn't discriminate against creators vs finishers (playing style), selfish vs unselfish.

Field positioning matters of course, especially for goals. So there is room to make distinctions for ultra skilled midfielders who were a bit more defensive, don't rotate forward etc. Sam Mitchell was probably in that category. But he was just obviously a better ball user than Newcombe, by a fair margin.

Yes they do.

But often those in the higher end of goal assists, or score involvements are in good teams.

Out of the top 10

7 are top 8 teams.

Top 15

The next 5 are top 8 teams. (12/15)

They do get raved about because they are games showing damage, whether direct or indirect. Damage can be done in different ways, as I said Tom Mitchell was the best midfielder in 2018, he was damaging by hand and a dominant inside midfielder who was also able to get the ball forward from clearance often leading to scores. He is an average or below average kick, and that was okay because he played within his limiting factors and dominated everything else (contested ball, attack on the ball, handball skill, accumulation and workrate).

Newcombe was raved about at the end of last year and he is an elite and A Grade calibre midfielder and part of his game is his damage. He broke open the elimination final BOG with 35 and a goal, including (1 goal assist, 10 score inv) he did this at 80% with 17 kicks and 6 inside 50s. He had a massive run of form as one of the better mids in the comp because of him and also the teams harmony working around him capitalising. The game against North end of the year for example he had 4 goal assists and 15 score involvements. Game against Richmond the week prior (2 goal assists 15 score inv). He did this and then the dogs elim and another game against Port in a different manner.

My point originally was that he’s a different style to Rowell outside of the similarities of being bulls inside, their outside games are completely different because of Newcombes damage and ball use.

It’s why I’m saying Rowell just isn’t the same type of player Newcombe is because Newcombe does it in a different way in situations. His kicking for example being one.

Mitchell is one of the greatest ball users ever and has spent largely most of his career without people even knowing his natural foot, some still don’t. Even he had his kicking troubles, especially set shots. This is irrelevant anyway.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

You think I'm rage baiting? Truly bizarre take.

No, I am saying I’m not responding to others because there is a lot of obvious rage bait.

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes they do.

But often those in the higher end of goal assists, or score involvements are in good teams.

Out of the top 10

7 are top 8 teams.

Top 15

The next 5 are top 8 teams. (12/15)

They do get raved about because they are games showing damage, whether direct or indirect. Damage can be done in different ways, as I said Tom Mitchell was the best midfielder in 2018, he was damaging by hand and a dominant inside midfielder who was also able to get the ball forward from clearance often leading to scores. He is an average or below average kick, and that was okay because he played within his limiting factors and dominated everything else (contested ball, attack on the ball, handball skill, accumulation and workrate).

Newcombe was raved about at the end of last year and often said to be underrated because he is an elite and A Grade calibre midfielder and part of his game is his damage. He broke open the elimination final BOG with 35 and a goal, including (1 goal assist, 10 score inv) he did this at 80% with 17 kicks and 6 inside 50s. He had a massive run of form as one of the better mids in the comp because of him and also the teams harmony working around him capitalising. The game against North end of the year for example he had 4 goal assists and 15 score involvements. Game against Richmond the week prior (2 goal assists 15 score inv). He did this and then the dogs elim and another game against Port in a different manner.

My point originally was that he’s a different style to Rowell outside of the similarities of being bulls inside, their outside games are completely different because of Newcombes damage and ball use.

It’s why I’m saying Rowell just isn’t the same type of player Newcombe is because Newcombe does it in a different way in situations. His kicking for example being one.

Mitchell is one of the greatest ball users ever and has spent largely most of his career without people even knowing his natural foot, some still don’t. Even he had his kicking troubles, especially set shots. This is irrelevant anyway.

Newcombe at the end of last season was insanely damaging, I agree, and turned into a score involvement machine that broke the game open consistently.

I'm referring more to this season, then his overall career, for the current discussion. If we were talking about the last third of 2024 alone I would have a different outlook.

Again, I'm not calling him a scrubber or a hacker. I'm not even saying he's league average for midfield skill level. I'm saying he's decent rather than the very top tier. He's closer to the very top tier for sheer ball winning, scrimmage contesting and gut running. He has some nice breakaway ability to compliment that. An excellent player.

Not a consistently uber elite, immaculately skilled, ultra polished, super damaging and heavy scoreboard impact player with ball in hand. That's all. He is better than Rowell in these areas and they have nuances separating game styles, but their overall production is amounting to similar outputs. Calling Newcombe ultra polished and Rowell a butcher would be an incorrect distinction.

But I don't know how many more hundreds of words I have left in me to articulate that same basic point. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Billy ray]

 

[MinerBoy]

The Ginni and Wiz criticism is so overblown. Every single side has players that do it and these 2 no more noticeable than a million others

Half the time they aren’t even doing it when they get called out… just shit tackles.

The reason it's overblown is 3-fold:

1. When they do it, they tend to not get the high free. Umps are looking for it.

2. When they don't do it, and legit get their heads ripped off, they still don't get the high free half the time. Why - Umps are looking for it.

3. The frees they do get are pretty much always legit there because they need to have their neck hanging on by a single vein to be awarded one.

They have personalities that annoy people because they play the game with enjoyment and a good deal of cheek. It pisses people off, so that's why they tend to get all the focus on behalf of the 200 players in the afl who do it every round.

 

[darcytiger]

Big ups to the indigenous NFL stars

 

[jannissary]

The Ginni and Wiz criticism is so overblown. Every single side has players that do it and these 2 no more noticeable than a million others

Half the time they aren’t even doing it when they get called out… just shit tackles.

The reason it's overblown is 3-fold:

1. When they do it, they tend to not get the high free. Umps are looking for it.

2. When they don't do it, and legit get their heads ripped off, they still don't get the high free half the time. Why - Umps are looking for it.

3. The frees they do get are pretty much always legit there because they need to have their neck hanging on by a single vein to be awarded one.

They have personalities that annoy people because they play the game with enjoyment and a good deal of cheek. It pisses people off, so that's why they tend to get all the focus on behalf of the 200 players in the afl who do it every round.

i suppose you were fine with all the ducking free kicks received by joel selwood throughout his career then, no?

 

[MinerBoy]

i suppose you were fine with all the ducking free kicks received by joel selwood throughout his career then, no?

Feel free to read the 3 points again if you didn’t understand

 

[Mr Meow]

The Ginni and Wiz criticism is so overblown. Every single side has players that do it and these 2 no more noticeable than a million others

Half the time they aren’t even doing it when they get called out… just shit tackles.

The reason it's overblown is 3-fold:

1. When they do it, they tend to not get the high free. Umps are looking for it.

2. When they don't do it, and legit get their heads ripped off, they still don't get the high free half the time. Why - Umps are looking for it.

3. The frees they do get are pretty much always legit there because they need to have their neck hanging on by a single vein to be awarded one.

They have personalities that annoy people because they play the game with enjoyment and a good deal of cheek. It pisses people off, so that's why they tend to get all the focus on behalf of the 200 players in the afl who do it every round.

Overblown, sure. But it is difficult to not infringe against 3 very small forwards whose legs give out whenever they win the ball with an opponent near. Obviously the consequences are massive (usually a shot on goal).

They are good enough to take the game on. The way they do it gives up on the play, because how many times can they dispose of the ball after (if a free isn't played).

People will bring up Selwood, but the vast majority of his drawn high free kicks, he was still legitimately evading a tackle to the point where he could dispose of the ball. Staying on his feet, ball ready to be distributed. Very few resulted in easy set shots on goal.

 

[MinerBoy]

Overblown, sure. But it is difficult to not infringe against 3 very small forwards whose legs give out whenever they win the ball with an opponent near. Obviously the consequences are massive (usually a shot on goal).

They are good enough to take the game on. The way they do it gives up on the play, because how many times can they dispose of the ball after (if a free isn't played).

People will bring up Selwood, but the vast majority of his drawn high free kicks, he was still legitimately evading a tackle to the point where he could dispose of the ball. Staying on his feet, ball ready to be distributed. Very few resulted in easy set shots on goal.

Place on ground is irrelevant if it’s a free. You’re not watching if you think ginnivan and Watson don’t keep playing the ball regardless of the whistle. And I readily concede that was the redeeming feature with Selwood. Regardless if the whistle came or not (and it did more than any man in history) he at least kept after the ball 100% regardless

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Newcombe at the end of last season was insanely damaging, I agree, and turned into a score involvement machine that broke the game open consistently.

I'm referring more to this season, then his overall career, for the current discussion. If we were talking about the last third of 2024 alone I would have a different outlook.

Again, I'm not calling him a scrubber or a hacker. I'm not even saying he's league average for midfield skill level. I'm saying he's decent rather than the very top tier. He's closer to the very top tier for sheer ball winning, scrimmage contesting and gut running. He has some nice breakaway ability to compliment that. An excellent player.

Not a consistently uber elite, immaculately skilled, ultra polished, super damaging and heavy scoreboard impact player with ball in hand. That's all. He is better than Rowell in these areas and they have nuances separating game styles, but their overall production is amounting to similar outputs. Calling Newcombe ultra polished and Rowell a butcher would be an incorrect distinction.

But I don't know how many more hundreds of words I have left in me to articulate that same basic point. I guess we'll find out.

You’re saying that I’m calling Rowell a scrubber and Newcombe an ultra polished damaging machine, not at all my point and if that’s what you’ve gotten from it you need to re read and try to comprehend it better. The point is being missed.

 

[Mr Meow]

Place on ground is irrelevant if it’s a free. You’re not watching if you think ginnivan and Watson don’t keep playing the ball regardless of the whistle. And I readily concede that was the redeeming feature with Selwood. Regardless if the whistle came or not (and it did more than any man in history) he at least kept after the ball 100% regardless

They get the ball but then are usually left on their arse after dropping the knees to draw one. It's a different type of action. How many times are they not paid but then the player keeps running to set up or kick a goal? Selwood's goal in the 2009 grand final would be an example of this, albeit usually he was infringed further up the ground.

When you have 3 very short players collapsing within 60m out, it's a headache to control and does make the game less a case of forwards breaking free from defenders; moreso it is whether or not they can slip down low enough and earn a set shot at goal.

 

[Mr Meow]

You’re saying that I’m calling Rowell a scrubber and Newcombe an ultra polished damaging machine, not at all my point and if that’s what you’ve gotten from it you need to re read and try to comprehend it better. The point is being missed.

It's really not. There's a fair amount of hypocrisy coming from you by accusing me of miscomprehending. So, time for both of us to move on. Unless you want to just paraphrase the same few hundred words back to each other another couple of dozen times. I can do so, but just let me know so I can shuffle some other things around.

 

[MinerBoy]

They get the ball but then are usually left on their arse after dropping the knees to draw one. It's a different type of action. How many times are they not paid but then the player keeps running to set up or kick a goal? Selwood's goal in the 2009 grand final would be an example of this, albeit usually he was infringed further up the ground.

When you have 3 very short players collapsing within 60m out, it's a headache to control and does make the game less a case of forwards breaking free from defenders; moreso it is whether or not they can slip down low enough and earn a set shot at goal.the fact

The fact you keep using the term collapse shows me you aren’t really sure what’s happening. Watson in particular gets the ball from the ground running hard and drives UP. Back to his full upright stance. He doesn’t drop or collapse. He collects and then uses leg strength to propel up into his strongest position to burst through tackles.

 

[Mr Meow]

The fact you keep using the term collapse shows me you aren’t really sure what’s happening. Watson in particular gets the ball from the ground running hard and drives UP. Back to his full upright stance. He doesn’t drop or collapse. He collects and then uses leg strength to propel up into his strongest position to burst through tackles.

I'm sure of what's happening. The 3 players have some nuance in how they draw contact, but mostly they are giving up on the play to earn an easy set shot or kick inside 50. When not awarded, they are not bursting through to score or genererate a chance from open play.

Of course that is frustrating when there are 3 players doing that around opposition defences.

 

[MinerBoy]

I'm sure of what's happening. The 3 players have some nuance in how they draw contact, but mostly they are giving up on the play to earn an easy set shot or kick inside 50. When not awarded, they are not bursting through to score or genererate a chance from open play.

Of course that is frustrating when there are 3 players doing that around opposition defences.

I’d say your assessment means you shouldn’t be as sure as you think you are. They happily take frees when paid, who wouldn’t and they are usually well deserved when paid, but they play the ball on and generate ops Regardless of the whistle.

The funny thing to me is Moore gets less hate and more frees than he should while ginnivan and Watson actually get less frees than they should for all the times they get their head ripped for no free when it is actually clearly a free. The bias weighs against them, not for them

 

[Mr Meow]

I’d say your assessment means you shouldn’t be as sure as you think you are. They happily take frees when paid, who wouldn’t and they are usually well deserved when paid, but they play the ball on and generate ops
Regardless of ten whistle.

The funny thing to me is Moore gets less hate and more frees than he should while ginnivan and Watson actually get less frees than they should for all the times they get their head ripped for no free when it is actually clearly a free. The bias weighs against them, not for them
Ten ti

Disagree with the first part.

Agree with the second about Moore: he is a shocker. Gets people less angry as they are usually around 55 to 75m out.

 

[MinerBoy]

Disagree with the first part.

Agree with the second about Moore: he is a shocker. Gets people less angry as they are usually around 55 to 75m out.

My like isn’t an agree as such as a respect for your countering opinion

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It's really not. There's a fair amount of hypocrisy coming from you by accusing me of miscomprehending. So, time for both of us to move on. Unless you want to just paraphrase the same few hundred words back to each other another couple of dozen times. I can do so, but just let me know so I can shuffle some other things around.

Definitely not hypocrisy when you’re blatantly missing my point.

Hahahahhaha nah I am good