Roast AFL Draft and Equalisation Polices collectively are an embarrassing disgrace.

[kaiserchief13]

Ah yes.

We fought all the big clubs off to land the big fishes like Chol, D'Ambrosio, Frost, Impey, Ginnivan and Meek.

Crow's got their first pick knocked back when they bid on JUH (probably a blessing in disguise). They had Darcy and Daicos taken ahead of their first pick in the following year.

Again, skill issue.

WC tried to recruit Meek from Freo but he preferred Hawthorn even though he was already living in Perth

 

[bzparkes]

Ah yes.

We fought all the big clubs off to land the big fishes like Chol, D'Ambrosio, Frost, Impey, Ginnivan and Meek.

A third of your team playing tonight were originally brought in from other clubs, including your 2 key defenders just last year.

It's clearly a hell of a lot easier for a club like Hawthorn to bring in outside players than it is for others and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

 

[archereleven]

The Lifecyle of an 18 team league should be

• 6 years at the bottom
• 6 years in the middle
• 6 years at the top

Sorry but Westcoast & Richmond won premierships and had their time at the top, this is just a regular down cycles they are experiencing. North Melbourne.....yes, the system isn't working for them but everyone else wanting Priority Picks should be told to GTFO of here.

The priority picks rant is rich, considering North got a few shitty 2nd rounders and a 3rd (a couple we had to trade for spuds) whilst Geelong got an afl endorsed priority pick when they traded for Bowes and pick 7 for a future 3rd lol
But, but, it was a salary dump!

The AFL should have stomped on that trade, straight up.

 

[DanA]

The priority picks rant is rich, considering North got a few shitty 2nd rounders and a 3rd (a couple we had to trade for spuds) whilst Geelong got an afl endorsed priority pick when they traded for Bowes and pick 7 for a future 3rd lol
But, but, it was a salary dump!

The AFL should have stomped on that trade, straight up.

I feel like it's a long bow to draw there trying to equate a lopsided trade to a priority pick. And it turns out Geelong actually did pretty terrible out of it's trades that year with Clark, Henry, Bruhn and Bowes coming into the team and none of them in the best 23 right now.

North have some systemic issues outside there control going against them. Gold Coast on the other hand just made a kind of terrible trade (that worked out for them).

 

[SSSSSS]

A third of your team playing tonight were originally brought in from other clubs, including your 2 key defenders just last year.

It's clearly a hell of a lot easier for a club like Hawthorn to bring in outside players than it is for others and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

We added two key defenders at the end of last season when we were no longer a basketcase and had well and truly turned the corner of our rebuild (finals). We could realistically sell the dream that we're ready and can start to hunt for success.

Freo last weekend had 6 players brought from outside the club playing in the Derby. Jackson & Bolton are much higher drawcards than any player Hawthorn has picked up under Sam Mitchell.

How come Freo can do it but the lowly Eagles can't? What is their excuse?

Skill issue.

 

[bzparkes]

We added two key defenders at the end of last season when we were no longer a basketcase and had well and truly turned the corner of our rebuild (finals). We could realistically sell the dream that we're ready and can start to hunt for success.

Freo last weekend had 9 players brought from outside the club playing in the Derby. Jackson & Bolton are much higher drawcards than any player Hawthorn has picked up under Sam Mitchell.

How come Freo can do it but the lowly Eagles can't? What is their excuse?

Skill issue.

Freo have always been highly active and have lost a lot of players also. It's taken them way longer than it should to get back into finals contention again.

They're pretty much all returning players and history suggests one WA side will be up when the other is down, so those players almost always want to go to the club that's on the up, leaving the other to struggle to bring any talent in.

Guess we'll see what happens with the new LM strategy but regardless, it's a far easier sell for Vic clubs, with the lack of travel, than WA clubs to recruit talent from interstate.

 

[archereleven]

I feel like it's a long bow to draw there trying to equate a lopsided trade to a priority pick. And it turns out Geelong actually did pretty terrible out of it's trades that year with Clark, Henry, Bruhn and Bowes coming into the team and none of them in the best 23 right nonow.

Bow drawn none the less... Its the most lopsided trade in AFL history and the AFL are supposed to step in. Maybe their 'integrity' unit should have had a look lol

What does it matter that it was a shit draft for you? For pick 17 and **** all, a cotton on franchise and a block of land got you Smith the year after, whilst we are trading pick 25 for a bloke who cant kick over a jam tin...

As I said, a bit rich...

 

[Scotland]

We added two key defenders at the end of last season when we were no longer a basketcase and had well and truly turned the corner of our rebuild (finals). We could realistically sell the dream that we're ready and can start to hunt for success.

Freo on the weekend had 9 players brought from outside the club in the Derby.

How come Freo can do it but the lowly Eagles can't? What is their excuse?

Skill issue.

You also brought in O'Meara, Mitchell, Vickery, Wingard as part of your post flag "rebuild" and had a crack at getting Scully and Patton rehabbed who were high profile but low price recruits. Those guys didn't join because they like the colours.

WC recruited Tim Kelly off the back of a successful era. Lewis Jetta, Jack Redden, Elliot Yeo, even the two old recruits in Sam Mitchell and Drew Petrie that came over at the end of 2016. Part of that was due to post playing opportunities and existing relationships (Adam Simpson, Darren Glass etc.) but I doubt they would've uprooted after playing their whole careers in Melbourne if we were a 1 win side.

The WC side at the weekend still had 5 players in it from other clubs. 6 if you include Brock who was on a list but never played and was an SSP pick up. Yeo is out injured. I don't count 9 for Freo but I also don't think they are where they are currently because of O'Meara and Oscar McDonald being on the list.

I think a lot of this stuff comes down to timing. We would have loved to get Luke Jackson but even if he was in play we didn't have the assets. Best case it's Jackson or Hewtt + Ginbey, worse case it's our pick 3 and more. Shai Bolton for multiple mid to late firsts is not what we need. He's another Wingard that is a piece you add to a contender, not a player that will lift you out of the bottom 4.

WC and Freo have different histories when it comes to list management. Judd left in 2007, Brad Ebert in 2011, Tom Barrass last year at age 29. We are generally a lot less active in chasing stars from other teams which is why the Tim Kelly trade was such a big deal, and our players don't leave. Which is usually a good thing, but a few got too comfortable under Simpson. Freo on the other hand have brought in more big name recruits and had more players leave. Brad Hill, Jesse Hogan, Rory Lobb, Blake Acres and others have all asked to be traded to Freo then asked to be traded back out. Lachie Neale, Lachie Schultz, Adam Cerra, Liam Henry, Griffin Logue, Ed Langdon, Lachie Weller etc. have all left for various reasons. Some of those moves worked out well in the end, some didn't. Let's not pretend it was a deliberate strategy to trade out Cerra to draft Amiss. If Luke Jackson did actually want to leave this year that would be a disaster and would really set them back.

I think Adelaide are a good comparison. Since they have been shit they haven't brought in a lot of players of note. Jordan Dawson is the best, but he has elevated his game a lot since he moved from the Swans. Ben Keays has been great but was a discard. Getting Rankine in 2023 was huge but the stars aligned for an OOC player from SA and them having an early pick to get a trade done. After a couple of almost years they've built up enough experience in their younger core of players to top up and this year brought in ANB, Peatling and Cumming via FA and sensible trades. All things being equal those guys probably don't come across if the Crows are where they were 3-4 years ago. Port brought in more players in that period.

Our time will come. If there was another Luke Jackson on offer this year we'd be in the box seat. But there isn't so too bad so sad. Wasn't that long ago Hewett, Cerra, Docherty, M McGovern, Saad, Williams all wanted to go to the Blues. Who in their right mind would do that now?

 

[Obeanie1]

It seems you can't move past your Eagles situation, it is their turn at the bottom primarily the result of some poor internal decisions in the early 2020s.

Poached, settle with the emotive language.

Well run clubs attract players, poorly run clubs lose players. It happens all the time.

It is the Eagles turn at the bottom after some poor decisions in the early 2020s after a successful period.

The entire point of compensation is to balance the ledger.

If you lose a 26-27 year old but then bring one in via the same FA mechanism, why should either side be entitled to compensation?

They should just directly trade with each other.

The compensation mechanism encourages teams like WC to be happy for a guy like Allen to leave, as being able to bring in pick 1 and 2 plus their other picks will help set them up for success in 5 years (IFF they pick wisely).

It won't help the Eagles in 2026, but that isn't the aim of FA compensation...it is to ensure they aren't permanent basket cases who just become feeder development style clubs that never actually rise to the top.

The ladder doesn't really agree with your rant, the equalisation cycle works pretty well.

Teams who were dominant in the 2010s are now down the bottom, meanwhile teams who were battlers are enjoying some success.

Equalisation measures are not a guarantee of success, see North...you still need to make smart decisions with the advantages you are given and select the right players.

But FA compensation is about strength of team...

Buddy leaves HAwks get pick 19 as FA compo
Frawley leaves Melbourne get pick 3 FA compo

Solely because Melbourne were rubbish and the Hawks were premiers.

As posted earlier forget about the colours of the clubs involved.

You seem to be focused on tribal rivalry between clubs.

Not the issue being discussed.

When you grow up enough to do that feel free to post an opinion.

 

[Elixuh]

No, he wants a longer contract than WCE are offering but Brisbane are. He could just sign the contract WCE are offering today and stay, if that's what he wants.



Western Australia has just as much, if not more, of an issue with this than the Northern states.

AFL shit the bed because a bunch of kids left a basket-case Brisbane a decade ago and nobody wanted to play for Gold Coast until recently.

What retention issues do the Northern clubs currently have that requires them to have advantages the WA & SA clubs don't get?



The small Vic clubs have already had these problems for decades and nothing's improved for them. A clean, uncompromised draft puts everyone on an even starting line.



And how are the inequities being 'balanced' out exactly?

By giving 4 clubs draft concessions nobody else receives, whilst big Vic clubs continue to raid smaller clubs than them? Blind Freddie can see the current system is beyond cooked.

Yes. WCE is preferring the compensation pick and could easily match Brisbanes offer. His preference has always been to stay at wce.

So you’re saying that for say GCS who have always basically been a feeder club for the VFL, you turn mechanisms off and on depending on where they sit in the comp? Despite all these grand advantages GCS have never played finals in their existence. Yeah things have been going real good for them.

It’s almost as if retention becomes a bit easier when greater than 1 or 2 players actually come from the area you’re located.

My view is the AFL needs to spend a lot more on talent pathways nation wide. They especially need to actually fund the academies and fund them well. Then you can get rid of matching.

The talent pool in the comp cannot sustain 18 teams let alone 19.

The problem is, reading between the lines of what I’ve been told, if the AFL did that the VFL clubs would crack the sads because they want academies abolished.

 

[Scotland]

For 9000th time no one wants academies abolished.

People just want players from all states and territories to enter the draft. And actually be available to 18 clubs.

 

[Elixuh]

For 9000th time no one wants academies abolished.

People just want players from all states and territories to enter the draft. And actually be available to 18 clubs.

Yes they do. Fred Bassett from St Kilda is on record from a matter of weeks ago calling for their abolishment. Eddie routinely called for their abolishment when he was president. They want them gone not changed.

 

[bzparkes]

Yes. WCE is preferring the compensation pick and could easily match Brisbanes offer. His preference has always been to stay at wce.

Why would WCE match? They've offered him a contract they're comfortable with. Brisbane are the ones who have to offer the big deal to get him to actually move out of the club.

As I said, Allen could sign a contract right now and stay where he is, he'll still be on very good coin. Brisbane are simply offering more in money and years because they have to to get him to move.

So you’re saying that for say GCS who have always basically been a feeder club for the VFL, you turn mechanisms off and on depending on where they sit in the comp? Despite all these grand advantages GCS have never played finals in their existence. Yeah things have been going real good for them.

So turn the mechanisms off for them then. They've been able to attract good players to move there now and they're doing a good job retaining talent. The only players who have left recently have done so due to lack of opportunity, not because there's been an 'exodus'.

Essendon have won as many finals as them in GC's existence, going back to 10 years before GC entered the AFL. They've also had a number of their better players leave the club for more opportunity.

It’s almost as if retention becomes a bit easier when greater than 1 or 2 players actually come from the area you’re located.

There's 5 Qld players in the Suns team tonight, Davies is having his 2nd game for the year and is apparently on other clubs' radars for more opportunity.

Probably the last big name they lost would be Rankine. Lukosius was a high pick but has never really looked up to it and they're better with the replacements.

Then there's the fact they kicked Qld-born Jack Bowes out of the club due to salary cap issues.

So I'd say bad list management and sub-par coaching would've had a far bigger impact on player retention than not having enough Qld players ever has.

My view is the AFL needs to spend a lot more on talent pathways nation wide. They especially need to actually fund the academies and fund them well. Then you can get rid of matching.

Yep, 100% agree on this. WA has only had 11 top 10 picks in the draft since 2015 and of the ones taken, only Naughton has really justified his pick to date and he's from Victoria originally anyway. Gold Coast are projecting to have 5 top 10 picks from Qld in the last 3 drafts alone and Brisbane have Annable this year. According to many phantoms, 3 of the top 5 picks this year will be from Qld.

I haven't even looked at SA for a comparison to WA but the 'heartland' states are struggling because clubs are expected to fund the development pathways for little to no benefit.

Yes, the NGA rules changed last year but the access is still less than what the northern academies provide.

The talent pool in the comp cannot sustain 18 teams let alone 19.

Agreed, unless the AFL actually pull out the chequebook and start funding non-Vic pathways properly.

The problem is, reading between the lines of what I’ve been told, if the AFL did that the VFL clubs would crack the sads because they want academies abolished.

The AFL needs to realise they are no longer the VFL and act appropriately. Maybe things will finally start to change with Swann, Harley and Nisbett now all joining AFL house.

 

[Scotland]

Yes they do. Fred Bassett from St Kilda is on record from a matter of weeks ago calling for their abolishment. Eddie routinely called for their abolishment when he was president. They want them gone not changed.

Way to just read the headlines.

Saints call for end to NSW, Qld Academies as part of draft overhaul

St Kilda officials have ramped up their push for draft reform in a submission to the AFL Commission

www.afl.com.au

The Saints put forward multiple recommended changes, including:

• The "abolition" of Northern Academy zones ahead of the 2025 draft
• The inclusion of Queensland, NSW and the ACT in the redistribution of NGA zones under the League's current NGA review
• Clubs be only able to match one bid in each draft on any Academy or father-son pick
• Clubs that finish in the top four be blocked from matching a bid on an Academy or father-son pick in the first round of that year's draft

It's just northern state fans that live in a weird binary where the only options are the 4 AFL clubs develop players and bypass the draft, or there is no player development in Qld and NSW at all.

 

[Mat Mann]

- As I understand it, Allen’s first preference is to stay at WCE but the WCE want the compensation pick over keeping him. So your reasoning is entirely flawed there.

- The unencumbered draft (ie if you removed FA compo, academy matching, nga and fs) is not an equal mechanism due to the concentration of talent coming from the VFL. This is especially problematic for the Northern clubs who routinely cannot pick best available talent due to players not wanting to move interstate. We also have to manage all of these interstate players within the same welfare budget that every other club gets. How do you address that?

- if you remove fa compo, fs, nga and academy matching then watch everything get real unequal real quick for some teams. I think it would be a disaster for the small vfl clubs who struggled to retain and recruit talent.

- the aim of the game is balancing out inequalities. If you listen to what the vfl clubs want, all they want is removal of anything which doesn’t advantage them and preservation of everything that does. BORING.

fact is the Northern Academy clubs don't want to pay face value for those players, they are very happy paying late 2nd and 3rd rounders for top 5 picks. GREEDY

 

[Mat Mann]

The favoritism for QLD/NSW teams is ruining the league. What's more important? Losing youngsters to another sport because they might have to move after a draft? Or having a fair competition? AFL should fund the academies

they do already

 

[Mat Mann]

Yes they do. Fred Bassett from St Kilda is on record from a matter of weeks ago calling for their abolishment. Eddie routinely called for their abolishment when he was president. They want them gone not changed.

and Matthews from GWS is on record saying that academy kids should be free, and not even enter the draft, so you take form one, add to the other, and find a middle ground. It's called negotiation and politics; most clubs use it to try and get what they want

 

[Scotland]

they do already

On average the AFL distributes +$8m to each Northern state club compared to the league average.

The clubs fund the academies though.

 

[Elixuh]

fact is the Northern Academy clubs don't want to pay face value for those players, they are very happy paying late 2nd and 3rd rounders for top 5 picks. GREEDY

You see old sport, as much as the mighty Sainters would like to believe it is, this isn’t a charity. We fund and run the academies and need an incentive to do so. It is our GOD GIVEN RIGHT to match and pay a little less.

If the Saints want a piece of the pie maybe do something to actually help the system instead of whinging. Help us help you.

 

[Elixuh]

and Matthews from GWS is on record saying that academy kids should be free, and not even enter the draft, so you take form one, add to the other, and find a middle ground. It's called negotiation and politics; most clubs use it to try and get what they want

I think in negotiation though you generally need some kind of leverage to get what you want. I might need a refresher, what is St Kildas leverage?

 

[Mat Mann]

Agreed, unless the AFL actually pull out the chequebook and start funding non-Vic pathways properly.



The AFL needs to realise they are no longer the VFL and act appropriately. Maybe things will finally start to change with Swann, Harley and Nisbett now all joining AFL house.

only replying in regards to funding, the AFL has also massively slashed the pathway funding in Vic. There has been alot of talk the last few years that the funding isn't enough

and you can be sure that if Vic fails to continue to produce the numbers they traditionally have, then the comp is going to have issues. ofc WA and SA need appropriate funding, just pointing out that VIC isn't immune to the underfunding as well

 

[Mat Mann]

On average the AFL distributes +$8m to each Northern state club compared to the league average.

The clubs fund the academies though.

Ex president of GCS tony Cochrane is on record saying AFL contributes $2m to the suns academy, not to hard to see them doing the same for the others.

If given the chance I’m sure WC could fund an academy 5x over what others could. imagine how much Hungary Jacks would chuck in to help out. Pies, Richmond, a few other clubs in the same boat.

We have a draft, a salary cap, soft cap. All these equalisation measures. Except the afl says **** it, you guys don’t have to follow any of those

Equalisation is just a word. Not a philosophy in the AFL

 

[Scotland]

Ex president of GCS tony Cochrane is on record saying AFL contributes $2m to the suns academy, not to hard to see them doing the same for the others.

If given the chance I’m sure WC could fund an academy 5x over what others could. imagine how much Hungary Jacks would chuck in to help out. Pies, Richmond, a few other clubs in the same boat.

We have a draft, a salary cap, soft cap. All these equalisation measures. Except the afl says **** it, you guys don’t have to follow any of those

Equalisation is just a word. Not a philosophy in the AFL

I was being facetious. The amount of money generated primarily in Victoria but also in WA and SA that is spent in Qld/NSW is astronomical.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. The AFL run an 'equalised' competition the same way the USSR ran an 'equalised' state. Dissent not permitted.

If they were serious about equalising performance, restrictions on recruiting players would be way lower. WC have enough money to sign say Chad Warner, Angus Sheldrick and Brandon Starcevich this year who are/were all out of contract. We do that it makes a difference straight away. But actually doing it means sorting out two trades, possibly 3 given current free agency rules. Get rid of FA compo and we could just keep Oscar Allen (or not) and get those guys. So if those guys actually want to come we are giving up cap space and wiping out our draft hand.

This is purely theoretical of course, but we would be using just cap space to sign players from other teams. We lose cap space and get better, Sydney for example gain cap space and get worse. But they could then trade for contracted Harry McKay with the cap space or sign someone else out of contract instead. Etc. That is a form of actual equalisation. We can't keep doing it forever like Man City because that's why the cap exists. Then when it's Harley Reid or whoever else out of contract if our cap is 90% full because we've signed players to be less shit then someone else with more cap space can make an offer. And round and round it goes. If 45 players want to play for Collingwood for $400k a year great have at it. But when there is $1m+ on offer it's amazing how quickly talent is spread around.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Hopefully the new system goes a long way to fixing a few of the issues. I heard the other day that Brisbane would have to have come up with the equivalent of pick 1 over the 22,24 drafts under the new point system that’s about 5-6 second round picks.
Now just get rid of the 10% discount and maybe add a tax on them after they match a certain amount of players over a specific timeline.

 

[Scotland]

Discounts and live bids are a bit of a gag really.

Just extend draft night trades to include players already selected. Would make the draft go longer but anyone who watches the draft needs to get out more.

WC reportedly rejected picks 6 and 11 (possibly a future pick also) for pick 1 in 2023. That ended up being Windsor at 7 and Tholstrup at 13. Do we take those 2 over Reid? No. I don't know what our draft board looked like other than Reid 1, but maybe we were really keen on players that slid.

Say for example we really wanted Curtin and Darcy Wilson:

WC: pick Reid, expecting Curtin to go top 5
Melb: pick Curtin (7) and Tholstrup (13)
St Kilda: pick Wilson (18) and Collard (28)

Melbourne agree to trade Tholstrup to the Saints for Wilson and Collard and a future pick. We then trade Reid for the three players. Same end result as a 3 way pick swap, but with the selections already locked in. Alternatively with the draft order as is we get on the phone to the Saints and them to do what they have to do to get Curtin and we'll trade with them. Etc.

As it stands, Reid was only open to the team who had pick 1 and pick 1 is only available for trade to the highest bidder if they are willing to part with it. The first bid player was pick 3 who wasn't really available to anyone except Gold Coast. What is so bad about North picking him at 3 and then Gold Coast having to satisfy North if they really want him? If someone is pick 3 and the best you have is 20 you don't deserve to get them.