Game Day AFL Grand Final 2019: Tigers v Giants...

[Geoffa32]

I watched Richmond again very closely on GF day.
Apologies to the poster because I can't find the post, but someone commented on Richmond's ability to score from turnovers while being the worst side in the competition at clearances. I imagine the instruction has gone something like this, and repeated week after week, session after session, break after break:
"1) CREATE loose ball. Tackle, block, harass until the oppo either spills the ball or no longer has the ball.
(1a) Imo, no side does this better right now. PA used the tactic to beat WC away, and to overwhelm us at AO after the bye; see also below. Other teams do it occasionally, but Richmond do it all the time. Their defensive pressure when they don't have the ball is peerless.)
2) Then, if you cannot take clean possession yourself to give out clean possession to a teammate, keep the ball moving --- tap it on, mongrel it on, grubber/soccer it on and out, away from the contest to one of our blokes outside. If you can't mark it, knock it to someone in space, or out-of-bounds.
There was a brilliant example of this (PF) when Riewoldt went up one-on-three for a mark, but tapped it down Martin's throat for a run-in goal.
(2a) this is an almost kamikaze method to take oppo players by surprise (because they are expecting Richmond to take possession), to keep the ball moving, to make sure their own players run to get that ball which has been mongrelled on/out. Oppo players in the contest are taken out of it and often left several metres behind when the ball is knocked out of a tight area. Think about it --- a Richmond player in a tight spot, eg outnumbered, will easily be tackled if he takes possession. However, if he knocks it out, those 2 or 3 oppo players in the contest are suddenly out of the contest, out of position, and Richmond's runners swoop and go forward.)
3) When he has clean possession, RUN, and keep running to move the ball forward by overlap-handball or short kicks to a man in space.
(3a) this requires supreme fitness and a willingness to run into space for their team even though they often do not receive the ball. They create multiple options for teammates and ensure that they have more outside players than their opponents. It also means that they have to be willing to run back quick-smart if the tactic doesn't work. Richmond's two-way running is the ultimate team-game.)".

It's not a new tactic. Clarko/Hawthorn have used it successfully but with an emphasis on team possession from marks by skillful foot-passing. Richmond have taken it to a level that has produced their last 3 years; 2 Flags and a PF.
In some ways, it reminds me of Jack Oatey's effect on Sturt and footy itself, especially 1966-1970 inclusive. Back then the game was more static; kick-mark, kick-mark, and handball was used as a get-out-of-trouble device. Oatey changed that to a much quicker, run-on overlap style, using handball much more effectively. What Richmond now do also works within the new 6-6-6 structure which has created more one-on-one contests. Richmond's willingness to run, run, RUN always gives teammates options away from/outside the ball, so that clean possession in contests is not as vital as it used to be.

Pretty good.observation.

A went.to the last.game.in 2017 where they beat St Kilda to make the top four. I was there with a mate who is also a footy coach.

He talked about a lot of things you have highlighted and said that the centre bounce, Ruckman and clearances are irrelevant if you can win the ball elsewhere and keep the ball fluid.

Exactly what Richmond do. It also works best at the G as you have more room to operate in.

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[CrowBloke]

Now I can't tell you how to combat it as only seen it once done in 2018 PF v pies and it seems to be a one off so far

How to combat it?
F'd if I k . This is all I can come up with:
Manning up on those loose outside Tigers would help, which would require some awareness, discipline and gut-running both ways. Try to avoid 2-on-one or 3 on-2 contests. One of those Richmond players will knock the ball on or out, changing those numbers to their advantage in a blink.
Precision possession is needed vs Richmond, especially kicks of 20-35m or so --- if they don't hit the mark Richmond will swoop on the turnover with a wave of runners. Tbh, I didn't pay much attention to the teams that beat Richmond this year. The Crows did at AO, but Richmond were badly depleted by injury.
NO-ONE beat them in their last 12 games at the G!

The Crows thumped Richmond in R6 2017 at AO, probably before Richmond refined their tactics. I've always lamented the fact that the Crows played their best footy in those first 6 rounds, apart from maybe the PF vs. Geelong. I'd much prefer it was in their last 6 games of a season, including Finals .

 

[CrowBloke]

He talked about a lot of things you have highlighted and said that the centre bounce, Ruckman and clearances are irrelevant if you can win the ball elsewhere and keep the ball fluid.
Exactly what Richmond do. It also works best at the G as you have more room to operate in.

I reckon it was Neil Craig who got the Crows to focus on what to do when the opposition has the ball (to create turnovers), but he went too far with zones (eg basketball) and structure which is where the 'Crowbots' thing came from.
In Netball, turnovers are crucial --- you could have a lower shooting % but if you take enough shots that will overcome it (eg 60 shots @ 90% = 53, but 80 shots @ 70% = 56 and you win. To GET those 80 shots, you have to get turnovers ie get the ball OFF the opposition when they have it. Netball possession alternates at Centre after each goal. Forcing turnovers after oppo players take possession from Centre bounces or Clearances in Footy is Richmond's forte).
Richmond's focus on turnovers takes Netball-style turnovers to a new level. Their pressure on oppo possession, plus keeping the ball moving out or forward, their way, plus their hard two-way running is (I hate to say it) brilliant.
In both their PF and the GF wins, I found myself thinking 3 or 4 times/quarter "Hell, that's clever". It's UNexpected. I don't expect them to do what they do, and neither do their opponents.

 

[Stan Judkins]

How to combat it?
F'd if I k . This is all I can come up with:
Manning up on those loose outside Tigers would help, which would require some awareness, discipline and gut-running both ways. Try to avoid 2-on-one or 3 on-2 contests. One of those Richmond players will knock the ball on or out, changing those numbers to their advantage in a blink.
Precision possession is needed vs Richmond, especially kicks of 20-35m or so --- if they don't hit the mark Richmond will swoop on the turnover with a wave of runners. Tbh, I didn't pay much attention to the teams that beat Richmond this year. The Crows did at AO, but Richmond were badly depleted by injury.
NO-ONE beat them in their last 12 games at the G!

The Crows thumped Richmond in R6 2017 at AO, probably before Richmond refined their tactics. I've always lamented the fact that the Crows played their best footy in those first 6 rounds, apart from maybe the PF vs. Geelong. I'd much prefer it was in their last 6 games of a season, including Finals .

Your 100% right and cannot agree more with the last couple of insights by yourself and Geoffa32
To stop it would require other teams to run,run,run and run some more to create space for effective kicks
The final kicks into the fwd line have to be well inside the fwd 50 say 15-20 metres out from goal
At other grounds (AO in particular) the game plan is not so effective, space wise fu#ks up the game style/plan
But at the MCG it borders on insane effective. the style is built for it and it alone
Much more space to work on and not get punished as much or not often enough to lose
Since 2017-2019 their game plan has won 34 lost 4 in H&A and won 6 lost 1 in Finals at the MCG

 

[matty p]

I watched Richmond again very closely on GF day.
Apologies to the poster because I can't find the post, but someone commented on Richmond's ability to score from turnovers while being the worst side in the competition at clearances. I imagine the instruction has gone something like this, and repeated week after week, session after session, break after break:
"1) CREATE loose ball. Tackle, block, harass until the oppo either spills the ball or no longer has the ball.
(1a) Imo, no side does this better right now. PA used the tactic to beat WC away, and to overwhelm us at AO after the bye; see also below. Other teams do it occasionally, but Richmond do it all the time. Their defensive pressure when they don't have the ball is peerless.)
2) Then, if you cannot take clean possession yourself to give out clean possession to a teammate, keep the ball moving --- tap it on, mongrel it on, grubber/soccer it on and out, away from the contest to one of our blokes outside. If you can't mark it, knock it to someone in space, or out-of-bounds.
There was a brilliant example of this (PF) when Riewoldt went up one-on-three for a mark, but tapped it down Martin's throat for a run-in goal.
(2a) this is an almost kamikaze method to take oppo players by surprise (because they are expecting Richmond to take possession), to keep the ball moving, to make sure their own players run to get that ball which has been mongrelled on/out. Oppo players in the contest are taken out of it and often left several metres behind when the ball is knocked out of a tight area. Think about it --- a Richmond player in a tight spot, eg outnumbered, will easily be tackled if he takes possession. However, if he knocks it out, those 2 or 3 oppo players in the contest are suddenly out of the contest, out of position, and Richmond's runners swoop and go forward.)
3) When he has clean possession, RUN, and keep running to move the ball forward by overlap-handball or short kicks to a man in space.
(3a) this requires supreme fitness and a willingness to run into space for their team even though they often do not receive the ball. They create multiple options for teammates and ensure that they have more outside players than their opponents. It also means that they have to be willing to run back quick-smart if the tactic doesn't work. Richmond's two-way running is the ultimate team-game.)".

It's not a new tactic. Clarko/Hawthorn have used it successfully but with an emphasis on team possession from marks by skillful foot-passing. Richmond have taken it to a level that has produced their last 3 years; 2 Flags and a PF.
In some ways, it reminds me of Jack Oatey's effect on Sturt and footy itself, especially 1966-1970 inclusive. Back then the game was more static; kick-mark, kick-mark, and handball was used as a get-out-of-trouble device. Oatey changed that to a much quicker, run-on overlap style, using handball much more effectively. What Richmond now do also works within the new 6-6-6 structure which has created more one-on-one contests. Richmond's willingness to run, run, RUN always gives teammates options away from/outside the ball, so that clean possession in contests is not as vital as it used to be.

Funnily enough I was watching this video of Caracella while reading this post:




He says at 3:23 "We've got a lot of quick players around the ground, and if we don't win the ball and use the ball away from the contest, we're looking to get the ball back as fast as we can." So essentially they want to create turnovers at all costs and then immediately get the ball away from the contest.

 

[CrowBloke]

Since 2017-2019 their game plan has won 34 lost 4 in H&A and won 6 lost 1 in Finals at the MCG

That's 89%, which is insanely effective, as you said. Geelong win 67% at home, and that's considered the benchmark of a fortress!
Oppo teams, especially those from Interstate, need to prepare/practice on grounds with similar dimensions to the MCG, clearly.

 

[CrowBloke]

Stan Judkins and Geoffa32 and matty p
WCE's home ground is Optus stadium (165 x 130m). The MCG is 171 x 146m, very close!
No doubt helped win the 2018 Flag ( + hard-running side, + elite midfield, + strong-marking forwards and defence + ... + ... + ...).

 

[CrowBloke]

He says at 3:23 "We've got a lot of quick players around the ground, and if we don't win the ball and use the ball away from the contest, we're looking to get the ball back as fast as we can." So essentially they want to create turnovers at all costs and then immediately get the ball away from the contest.

Great quote, very significant, and key to their game plan.

After the bye this year, the Crows adopted a weakly ineffective, passive, wait-and-see approach when they lost possession, did not run both ways, did not chase. Their scoring rate from turnovers in 2017 was elite, best in the Comp from memory. The Crows fall-off reflected player disenchantment, imho. Pyke and Co changed the game plan so often the players gave up.

 

[Stan Judkins]

Great quote, very significant, and key to their game plan.

After the bye this year, the Crows adopted a weakly ineffective, passive, wait-and-see approach when they lost possession, did not run both ways, did not chase. Their scoring rate from turnovers in 2017 was elite, best in the Comp from memory. The Crows fall-off reflected player disenchantment, imho. Pyke and Co changed the game plan so often the players gave up.

Will be hoping your team gets back up there as soon as possible as the AFL need all the states playing in the finals each year
QLD, NSW, WA all had one in this years, so I say go SA and all the best for the near future