AFL statement on alternative strips

[Rob]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
Rob, if you understand what the word pedantic means, I think that sums up your arguement. Hot air!! There is no substance to your arguement. You wouldn;t by chance be a Port supporter?? as they also get stuck on trivial issues because they can;t rise above their pathetic little gripes.

Of course it's pedantic. But IMO, so is showing so much hostility towards wearing a jumper with the colours inverted once or twice a year. No-ones forcing you to wear pink and orange.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

But why are people so insistent on making people do something that is against there wishes. It is a very important issue for some clubs and is paramount to what the club stands for. To just discard everything that it stands for shows that many do not understand what football means to some people.

It is a religion, not a sport. and for those who say it is, you will never understand and I pity you for that.

 

[JF_Bay_22_SCG]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
good luck trying aFL. Essendon must have its members vote, and they aint gunna vote that way.

Make Essendon forfeit, I wold laugh at that. the number of lawsuits that would arise.

Those who want to change do so, those who don't, don;t.

Stop trying to force s hit on other clubs.

Nah, let em forfeit the points if their beloved sash is so scared.

I cannot believe the preciousness from some of the clubs here.

All a storm in a teacup, Geelong and Carlton have had the same colours.

Eddie's squawking has raised an issue that was not an issue until he brought it up.

Now it has bitten him on the bum. And his club is the one most likely to "lose" out of it.

My heart bleeds for Essendon and Collingwood, I tell you.

JF

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
But why are people so insistent on making people do something that is against there wishes. It is a very important issue for some clubs and is paramount to what the club stands for. To just discard everything that it stands for shows that many do not understand what football means to some people.

1) Essendon is not an island. It shares the league with 15 other teamsand the fans of those other teams as well as neutral viewers. It has to realise that what it wants is not always what everyone else wants, or what it is going to get (I wish to go 150kph down the freeway, but others don't approve of that and hence I don't get to. Welcome to real life.).

2) You are not 'discarding everything' when you wear a different jumper for at most a handful of games each year. That's ridiculous and melodramatic in the extreme. Do you realise it's quite possible that Essendon could adopt an alternate jumper and then not wear it for a whole year if the fixtures fell its way? Essendon's first jumper - and it's most iconic jumper - would remain its black with red sash. Young Essendon fans will still grow up loving red and black. They will still want to wear red and black to every game they go to. Everything the club merchandises will still be dominated by red and black. Essendon will still be Essendon and no alternate jumper will ever change that. As I said to a Collingwood poster on this topic before: "No matter what colours you wear, we'll all still hate you for being Collingwood."

The only thing MacMahon's anti-alternate jumper stance is doing is making it that much harder for the club to get the concept accepted by the members when the AFL eventually gets off its arse and enforces the thing. It would be better for the Dons if the board were to encourage acceptance of the idea, and work towards developing an acceptable alternate jumper rather than constantly having a ****ing contest with the AFL that isn't actually going to achieve anything.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
Simple solution: Those clubs whose guernsey is sacred should keep it.

No. Clubs who clash with another team, and are the away team should change. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
And those who have no sense of tradition change.

Just because a team changes their jumper doens't mean they don't value tradition. Take Liverpool (the Reds.) They have worn a green "clash" jumper in the past, and their history is as cherished and well-known as any sporting club on the planet. You can't change history, it has already happened. To suggest that if a team changes their jumper, that they don't value their history is blinkered and absurd. It's also plain wrong.

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
The guernsey is the club

Haha. No. The CLUB is the club. If Australia change their flag, we don't magically turn into a different country. Red and black will always be our officials colours, but it doesn't mean we should wear them when there is a clash. It doesn't reflect badly on the club at all if we change. Instead if reflects of a progressive mindset, who is not afraid to be bold.

Our club is 30 years behind ther time. in this issue. We should have been the first club to do this. Sadly, we look like becoming the last.

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
Ever heard the expression that when you put the guernsey on, you have a repsonibility to play with pride and give it your all.

What the f**k has that got to do with changing your jumper? Do you think that when ManU run out in a whote top, that they dont play with pride and give it their all? You play for the club not the material on your chest.

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
Not everything people do in other countries is great.

Agreed. But with this issue in particular, they have got it right. Doesn't the fact that 99% of sporting teams (including many the dwarf Essendon) do this indciate that maybe, just maybe they have a point?

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
How often I hear about how bad we are for adopting americanisms, and this whole topic wreaks of it.

Having a jumper to avoid a colour clash, is not an "Americanism." Colours exist outside the USA and when we look through our eyes, we see colours, even in countries like Australia and England. Believe it or not.

It is not "good" that Essendon hasn't changed their jumper. Good things are playing with pride and winning games. Refusing to change a jumper, even when it would benefit the players is not something to be proud of. The club doesn't gain anything by refusing to do something common-sensical. And I don't want to hear any crap about tradiiton either. I love our tradition, but the fact we have never altered our jumper for "clash" games is a meaningless part of the tradition. Premierships are the important part. Red and Black will always be our official colours and we we always wear them for the vast majority of games, so if we change once or twice I fail to see how this impacts negatively. Suppose, over the last 100 years, that we had worn the red and black for 90% of games and had altered it for away games against St.Kilda and Melbourne. Would our history have become poorer? Would our 16 premierships magically disappear? Would our ability to win games be affected? No, no and no.

We are a progressive club. It is almost embarassing, that such a simple, common-sensical, and obvious solution has not been considered by a club as great as Essendon.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Dan26
We are a progressive club. It is almost embarassing, that such a simple, common-sensical, and obvious solution has not been considered by a club as great as Essendon.

Maybe they didn't become great by being sheep.

 

[Dave]

Troglodyte

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by MarkT
Maybe they didn't become great by being sheep.

Gee. Way to mount an argument there, Mark.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Dan26
Gee. Way to mount an argument there, Mark.

Gee. Way to mount a rebuttal there, Dan.

And no ? You're slipping.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Mr Eagle
1) Essendon is not an island. It shares the league with 15 other teamsand the fans of those other teams as well as neutral viewers. It has to realise that what it wants is not always what everyone else wants, or what it is going to get (I wish to go 150kph down the freeway, but others don't approve of that and hence I don't get to. Welcome to real life.).

2) You are not 'discarding everything' when you wear a different jumper for at most a handful of games each year. That's ridiculous and melodramatic in the extreme. Do you realise it's quite possible that Essendon could adopt an alternate jumper and then not wear it for a whole year if the fixtures fell its way? Essendon's first jumper - and it's most iconic jumper - would remain its black with red sash. Young Essendon fans will still grow up loving red and black. They will still want to wear red and black to every game they go to. Everything the club merchandises will still be dominated by red and black. Essendon will still be Essendon and no alternate jumper will ever change that. As I said to a Collingwood poster on this topic before: "No matter what colours you wear, we'll all still hate you for being Collingwood."

The only thing MacMahon's anti-alternate jumper stance is doing is making it that much harder for the club to get the concept accepted by the members when the AFL eventually gets off its arse and enforces the thing. It would be better for the Dons if the board were to encourage acceptance of the idea, and work towards developing an acceptable alternate jumper rather than constantly having a ****ing contest with the AFL that isn't actually going to achieve anything.

Great post. Don't you just love those melodramatic posters who, claim that something is "lost" if we change for one or two games a year. It's almost as if they think we are discarding our jumper forever.

You're right about McMahon too. We all know these changes are going to happen. Therefore he should be encouraging an acceptance of the idea. For what its worth, I think we should replace black with silver for clash games. It avoids clashes and is extremely marketable. Essendon are the Bombers, right? What colour are fighter jets? Grey/silver/metallic. As a clash jumper it would look sleek, and in tune with "Essendon." I wonder if someone could do one and post it

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by Dan26
For what its worth, I think we should replace black with silver for clash games. It avoids clashes and is extremely marketable. Essendon are the Bombers, right? What colour are fighter jets? Grey/silver/metallic. As a clash jumper it would look sleek, and in tune with "Essendon." I wonder if someone could do one and post it

Great in theory, but trust me: I saw a sporting team wearing silver with red on the weekend. It looked utterly crap

 

[gPhonque]

Originally posted by Dan26
Red and black will always be our officials colours, but it doesn't mean we should wear them when there is a clash.

I don't understand why it is neccesary to introduce new colours when the problem could be solved by simply rearranging the current - traditional - colours?

Essendon = RED and BLACK.

Why must that change?

Essendon are the Bombers, right? What colour are fighter jets? Grey/silver/metallic. As a clash jumper it would look sleek, and in tune with "Essendon."

"In tune with Essendon" ????

Using that logic, we should expect to see Geelong running around in pussycat brown, and maybe a splash of ginger here and there just for effect.....

Last time I checked, silver was not a part of Essendon's club colours.

I've come around to the fact that we probably should have a 'clash' guernsey.

But it is NOT neccesary for us to introduce any new colours to our guernsey in order to avoid clashes with other teams.

And besides, silver went out of fashion 10 years ago.

(or maybe it's just catching on in Werribee....)

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Mr Eagle/1) Essendon is not an island. It shares the league with 15 other teamsand the fans of those other teams as well as neutral viewers. It has to realise that what it wants is not always what everyone else wants, or what it is going to get (I wish to go 150kph down the freeway, but others don't approve of that and hence I don't get to. Welcome to real life.).

What a great comparison. Why don;t you bring in armed robbery, or how about assault.

Mr Eagle/2) You are not 'discarding everything' when you wear a different jumper for at most a handful of games each year. That's ridiculous and melodramatic in the extreme. Do you realise it's quite possible that Essendon could adopt an alternate jumper and then not wear it for a whole year if the fixtures fell its way? Essendon's first jumper - and it's most iconic jumper - would remain its black with red sash. Young Essendon fans will still grow up loving red and black. They will still want to wear red and black to every game they go to. Everything the club merchandises will still be dominated by red and black. Essendon will still be Essendon and no alternate jumper will ever change that. As I said to a Collingwood poster on this topic before: "No matter what colours you wear, we'll all still hate you for being Collingwood."

And if one of those games is the grand final. I don;t think so.

It is you who are trivialising the argument. Just cause some newbies and bandwagon jumpers think it is a good idea, doesn;t mean it is.

Dan26/Just because a team changes their jumper doens't mean they don't value tradition. Take Liverpool (the Reds.) They have worn a green "clash" jumper in the past, and their history is as cherished and well-known as any sporting club on the planet. You can't change history, it has already happened. To suggest that if a team changes their jumper, that they don't value their history is blinkered and absurd. It's also plain wrong.

We haven;t changed our guernsey, difference is that soccer is all about money. Why don;t we adopt soccers approach and then no one can watch any, ANY football on free to air tv. Yes lets follow in other codes footsteps, lets not make a stance. Let's listen to the Worst CEO of the AFL ever.

Dan you're not a traditionalist - so go watch soccer and stop trying to split our great club.

I guess you would all be for a merger too. Just cause you don;t mind bending over doesn;t mean others do.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by gPhonque


...

I'd now be in favour of Essendon using a new "away" guernsey, but it must be red and black (obviously more red than black) and must look like a VFL footy jumper, and not a mess of fancy little patterns with flames and what have you......

Just a footy jumper.

...

This has been pretty much my line for a number of years too!

I hate us wearing white shorts. Our colours are YELLOW and BLACK (as the song tells us). I've checked over it a few times and there is no mention of white whatsoever. I really don't care what the jumper is as long as it has our 2 colours.

I've often thought if we could have a yellow jumper with a big black 'claw' mark running from shoulder to hip (like our pre-season jumper but bigger) with black shorts and black socks.

The only possible team this would clash with would be Hawthorn in which case we would wear our 'black' home uniform.

If our black socks clashed, then it would be a simple matter of changing to the home hooped ones.

 

[riccardo]

As a St Kilda member, I personally applaud the AFL for showing the guts to stand up and deal with this problem. We have changed our gurnsey for 'clashing colour' matches, I think it looks great, very much stands out. I saw so few mistakes at the game Vs Collingwood when we wore the yellow, as opposed to Vs Carlton, who refused to change, when mistakes were everywhere.
The game has changed forever from 100 years ago, or even 50 years ago. New material for the jumpers, the addition of sponsers, and the shrinking in size of the shorts (remember when they covered the legs down to the knees?) have meant that white shorts = away and black shorts = home dosen't really cut it anymore. Changing the design of the strip will not help, I think, because, for a clash strip to work, the colours have to not clash! That's the whole point! I hope the AFL forces those teams mentioned to at least consider the idea of alterenate colours, they can be a boon financially (I've seen several yellow St Kilda gurnseys, I will soon own one, and my brother already does!) with the possibility of alternate colour flags, beanies, scarves, socks, shirts, etc. as well as jumpers. It can also rekindle opposition supporters intrest in a club. I have been asked - "what do you think of the yellow?", and it gives me an opportunity to tell people about the history of the club - when the yellow was used before.
Don't dissmiss a good idea just because you are attached to old traditions - I love the red, black and white with my whole heart, but I cheer just as loud with the yellow. If it helps the game look less amaturish with limited turnovers and clangers, it can only help. It's just for a week or two, and after all, it's still St Kilda, whatever they wear!

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
What a great comparison. Why don;t you bring in armed robbery, or how about assault.

Alright, a non-criminal comparison then. I'd like to play my music nice and loud when I'm at home, but that ****es everyone else in the house off, so I don't. Just because there is a TV show I want to watch doesn't mean I can if everyone else wants to watch another show. I notice that you're not actually denying what I say.

And if one of those games is the grand final. I don;t think so.

Don't think so what? You think playing a single important game in an alternate jumper will collapse every last inch of tradition that the Bombers hold dear? You think kids will stop wearing red and black because of one GF? You think everyone will suddenly want to stop wearing the sash jumper as the main jumper? You think the club will suddenly want to rebadge itself as magenta and cyan stripes? Get a clue. It won't make any difference, for the very reasons I outlined. Essendon will still be Essendon whatever it wears on the odd occasion, and if your passion for the club is wholly defined by what they wear on any given day, then that's pretty ****weak. I always loathed the Eagles' bastard away jumper of 00-02, but they were still the Eagles and I still supported them wholeheartedly.

 

[mantis]

Originally posted by Mr Eagle
Alright, a non-criminal comparison then. I'd like to play my music nice and loud when I'm at home, but that ****es everyone else in the house off,

Or another way of looking at it.

Say I decide to share my house with borders, so when they come to the interview, I tell them all the rules that I have & that I like to play my music loud, so if they want to move in, then they have to put up with my music & rules.

If they agree to the rules, but after a couple of months they start bitching about my music & other rules, I tell them to p**s off, because they knew the rules & agreed to them, before they moved in.

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by mantis
Or another way of looking at it.

Say I decide to share my house with borders

And here is the fundamental fault of the argument - it's not "Essendon's" house. It's everyone's house, or in the alternative it is the AFL's house. Essendon is a tenant/boarder just like the rest of us. Same rules apply to all.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

Yet we aren;t the only ones arguing this point. There are two sides to every arguement, and considering you're a weagles supporter, well you prob. don;t understand about the jumper because it's significance won;t truly be recognised ever due to your club changing it every 2nd week.

This has been our guernsey for over 100 years, not 16 or 17, 100+

 

[milo]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend

This has been our guernsey for over 100 years, not 16 or 17, 100+

So what.

I enjoy a good debate, and you're losing this one.

 

[Mr Eagle]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
Yet we aren;t the only ones arguing this point. There are two sides to every arguement, and considering you're a weagles supporter, well you prob. don;t understand about the jumper because it's significance won;t truly be recognised ever due to your club changing it every 2nd week.

Yes, someone like me who ran a website dedicated to getting our classic jumper design back clearly has no interest in a good traditional jumper I recognise the value of a good iconic jumper just as much as you. But I also recognise that a strong icon's power is immune to its not being worn twice a year. Essendon is far bigger than the occasional wearing of a backup jumper, and I'm surprised you treat the Bomber legacy as so fragile that it could be otherwise.

 

[Philj]

Hi, not wanting to butt into a friendly exchange of viewpoints but didn't Australia change its colours a few years back from blue and gold to green and gold. Strange I haven't noticed much reduction in passion for the Australian Olympic team, cause they still seem to be Australian.

Side note, national rugby teams swap jerseys when there is a clash. Funny thing is teh home country changes not teh away.

Anyway just talking as someone who does have difficulty differentiating jerseys, has nailed a pass to an opposition player with a similar jersey and teh sun behind him, and am colour-blind.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by gPhonque
I don't understand why it is neccesary to introduce new colours when the problem could be solved by simply rearranging the current - traditional - colours?

Essendon = RED and BLACK.

Why must that change?

It isn't changing. Our official colours will always be red and black, even if we wear pink with green spots for a "clash" game. Liverpool's official colur hasn't changed from red, just because they wore a green clash guernsey.

I am of the opinion that simply reversing the colours and having more red than black, wouldn't help a great deal against Melbourne and St.Kilda. The field would still be a mixture of dark and red in games against Melbourne.

Originally posted by gPhonque


"In tune with Essendon" ????

Using that logic, we should expect to see Geelong running around in pussycat brown, and maybe a splash of ginger here and there just for effect.....

Last time I checked, silver was not a part of Essendon's club colours.

The Kangaroos have introduced silver into their jumper for some of their games this year, and it hasn't become one of their "official colours. Nothing magically bad has happened to their history. West Coast introduced orange for away games, even though it is not one of their "official" colours.

I think variations of black and white (i.e silver, grey, and black and white themselves) are acceptable, because they are universal. They are not colours but shades. White isn't one of our official colours is it? But we wear white shorts for all away games, and have doen for 100 years. Where is the outcry over that? We'd never wear green shorts, but white is okay, because shades like that are acceptable. You'll notice that silver has been incorporated inot Essendon's new logo. It's not just black and red.

I'd like to see us develop a guersney that is different and doesn't clash, but is still Essendon. I think a silver jumper with a red sash satisfies those aims.

The most important thing is the club - not the colours we wear for two games a year. As long as we win and we are called Essendon I don't care what we wear as a clash jumper, as long as it doesn't clash.

Getting emotional about colours when the official colours arn't changing (and never will) is overly melodramatic.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by MarkT
Maybe they didn't become great by being sheep.

Originally posted by Dan26
Gee. Way to mount an argument there, Mark.

What I meant was that followers don't become great they become nearly as good as those they follow if they are lucky. Just because some clubs want alternate strips and the AFL want all clubs to raise money for themselves and the AFL by selling more than 1 jumper, it does not follow that it is either necessary or even desirable.

As for your reply, Dan, I've said my bit on this more often than I can remember. However since you refrained from the sarcastic smiley as Dave pointed out I’ll do you the cutesy of a long winded and boring reply. This is how I see the issue from my perspective:

In a nutshell, I only care about Collingwood's jumper. Your club can do what it wants on whatever basis it wants. From my club's perspective I have never had a problem detecting Collingwood players from opposition players either on TV or live and I have one eye by birthright. IMO Collingwood's jumper does not clash so alternative strips do not revolve around jumper clashes for my club. The fact that some clubs want alternate strips is their business, not mine.

I have heard some Port supporters say their strip clashes wit ours. IMO if it clashes with any strip we have gone to since their introduction then we should be forced to change not just for games v them but forever. If it clashes with the strip we had on their introduction they the error made in allowing them to have a clashing jumper should require them to change. IMO there is no need for either. Geelong and North are the only other possible clash jumpers IMO. While I really don't think there is a substantive issue I would be happy to alternate the white or black background with them on whatever basis they want (home team dark seems fair) in order to placate either their fans or the impartial viewers sense of frustration. In all honesty I cannot see anything else necessary.

Hypothetically, if our jumper was a problem from a players perspective I would want it fixed one way or anther because I don't want Collingwood players passing to opposition players. I am not anti change but I am against jumper change for my club in the absence of reasons other than profit. I don't want to sell the basis of the jumper and I don’t want to lose the tradition in any event.

You can personally judge tradition on whatever basis you want but to me it is important and thankfully to the great majority of Collingwood supporters it is very important. That is part of our strength. Yes it is mere emotional attachment but frankly that is all that football is.

To say, as some have, that we have already changed jumper or that we stick sponsor logos on the *** or the back is really a furphy. I am talking about the fundamentals of black and white stripes and that is a huge part of what Collingwood means to me. A logo or inverse of the background v the strip of change in fabric technology or whatever is not a fundamental change. That argument is just irrelevant.

To say, as some have, that tradition can't be important because we left our spiritual home is another argument of convenience. Yes we did and it bloody kicking and screaming. It was and is a great shame IMO. Unfortunately we had to move away. We wanted and tried to stay but unfortunately the AFL didn't want us to play footy there so the place could not be maintained. Additionally, the thrust of technology passed Vic. Park by so it was not up to scratch as a training venue so we had to le it go. All sad for the faithful but proof that we can move on. As it stands now these matters of necessity simply do not apply to our jumper.

My last and repeated point is quite simple. Football and football clubs run only on emotion - nothing else. On field and off the emotions all there is that is worth a zac and all there is that raises a single cent. Every player, every board member, every member, every supporter, every detractor - all emotion based contributors in one way or another. Thankfully my club has long run strong on emotion. Sometimes it has cost us dearly but over the long history of Collingwood it has stood us in good stead and sees us for better or worse where we are today. If all the black and white stripes are is emotion then thank Christ for emotion.

Originally posted by Dan26
Great post. Don't you just love those melodramatic posters who, claim that something is "lost" if we change for one or two games a year. It's almost as if they think we are discarding our jumper forever.

To tell you the truth Dan I do love them. Especially the ones who cry when we lose – players, coaches, supporters, unpaid orange cutters – all of ‘em. Yes they are silly emotional little people but by God they are all that our great clubs owe their existence to. I’ve seen a lot of great players wear the black and white stripes and none of them would have been in a Collingwood jumper had these melodramatic types not been there in 1897 when we left the VFA for unchartered waters, when we won our first spoon in 1976, when we lost 3 GF’s by less than 3 goals in total to break Bob Rose’s heart, when we played 5 GF’s in 5 years for no result to break Tommy Hafey’s heart and every year in between and since. Yes Dan that is all a little melodramatic but it is fact.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
We haven't changed our guernsey, difference is that soccer is all about money.

Listen here buddy Liverpool wear red, ManU wear red. They play each other there a clash so one of them changes. That is not about money - it is about avoiding a clash They make money as a bonus, and exploit it for what they can. But if you think it is about money and money only then you are a fool. Maybe you'd like to see ManU play Liverpool with both wearing thei traditional jumpers. It would be a joke. One HAS to change.

Originally posted by Pevers-Legend
You are not a traditionalist. I guess you would all be for a merger too.

I have been following Essendon since I was 5 years old in 1981. I was given the first copy of our club history titled "Flying Higher" in 1983 as a present. When the next edition was available in 1994, I bought it the first day it was released by the club. I own the video "Bombers - the history of the Essendn Football Club" and can list for you all of our 16 flags (I can name the years) and also the years of every one of our 29 Grand Final apearances. In fact I can tell you every one of the 59 years we have made the finals. I live for Essendon. So, don't start preaching to me, buddy.

Essendon's history will not be affected by something as minor and insignificant as a jumper altertation (to avoid a clash) for one or two games a year. We will always wear red and black for the vast majority of games, and that will never change.

You are making a big deal about changing the jumper when it is not a big deal. You are getting all "over-emotional." Read the quote from Mr Eagle again. I will post it again, so you can read it, because it hits the nail on the head.

"Essendon is far bigger than the occasional wearing of a backup jumper, and I'm surprised you treat the Bomber legacy as so fragile that it could be otherwise."

Read that and let it sink in. Read it again, and again. Print it out, and carry it in your pocket and read it every day.