Women's Footy AFLW and MFC Women’s team general discussion - Link Pg 39 - Winner gets a BF Platinum m'ship

WolfgangV

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Do you meet and greet every fan on their way in to the grounds at every game? I'm happy to admit I haven't attended, never will and am purely speculating, but you're not particularly forthcoming with what makes you a subject matter expert on the composition of AFLW crowds everywhere, and apparently "state level" football in general.

Allow me also to respond in kind - this isn't directed specifically at you WolfgangV but more so at those who think that being self-avowed AFLW supporters makes them fans who've transcended to a higher level of existence, shut the **** up yourselves and hop off your high horses. The only thing principally "different" about the women's game is the woeful standard. Are they not playing AFL football? Are they not also wandering around a big park (badly) kicking a Sherrin? What theoretical understanding am I missing here? What is it about women playing a sport that is so appealing to you? The only thing that we can agree on is that these women are being paid to play football at a significantly worse level than your average U16s competition. Until proven otherwise, you're all clearly sexists.

Also, you can't backdate the "cost" for the women's competition. You paid for a ticket to a game or membership to your club's AFL season... you got what you paid for. You want to go watch women play, go down to the local competition and watch them play. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference in standard anyway.
Never claimed to be an expert on the crowds at AFLW matches. But having been to at least one game most weeks both seasons (and re state level football, many VFLW, or it's equivalent, games over several years) I think I'm a better position than you to comment. Perhaps we leave that there then.

I can't speak for others of course, but I don't see myself on a high horse or having transcended to any higher level of existence simply because I hold the view that those who have more investment in, and knowledge of, the development and growth of women's football should be those who have the majority input into the future direction of the game. You stated that you don't think there should be any AFLW teams. I find it unfortunate that you hold that position (especially as a fellow Dees fan, in that regard we are both on a higher horse and have transcended fans from other clubs ;)), as by admitting as much, as I see it, you've excluded yourself from being able to make valid contributions to discussions concerned with the way forward for the AFLW. Why would anyone take seriously any health or medical advice from someone who wants them dead?

One more point, re your apparent concerns, frustration, annoyances with why anyone would want to attend a women's match. I know many people who love Aussie Rules, love the game. But they have real problems with the AFL and much of the crap that is unfortunately part and parcel of the men's game. For example, the idea of being able to go to a match, with or without kids, and have a reasonable expectation that it will be free of sexist, racist and homophobic abuse does have appeal. What happens on the field, the standard of play, is important. But it is not the only thing that is important to everyone.
 

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Cannon82

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Never claimed to be an expert on the crowds at AFLW matches. But having been to at least one game most weeks both seasons (and re state level football, many VFLW, or it's equivalent, games over several years) I think I'm a better position than you to comment. Perhaps we leave that there then.
Or you could answer the question. If I'm "wrong", presumably you have some idea what the crowd composition is from sitting in the outer at a few games. If you do share, I'm then curious as to what makes your opinion "right". I've watched a few short licks of the women's game on TV... I've probably seen more of the supporters than you have.

I can't speak for others of course, but I don't see myself on a high horse or having transcended to any higher level of existence simply because I hold the view that those who have more investment in, and knowledge of, the development and growth of women's football should be those who have the majority input into the future direction of the game. You stated that you don't think there should be any AFLW teams. I find it unfortunate that you hold that position (especially as a fellow Dees fan, in that regard we are both on a higher horse and have transcended fans from other clubs ;)), as by admitting as much, as I see it, you've excluded yourself from being able to make valid contributions to discussions concerned with the way forward for the AFLW. Why would anyone take seriously any health or medical advice from someone who wants them dead?
That'd be probably be a fair view to have if the AFLW was piloting its own ship instead of clinging onto the coat-tails of the men's game. You're acting as if these are two separate entities, yet the women's game is entitled to funding, exposure, facilities, etc that are due them... why exactly? The AFLW is a charity case that are now grumbling about the size of their handouts. If the NBA/WNBA is any indication of a similar parasitic sporting relationship, the AFLW has buckley's chance of standing on its own feet.

Equally, it's hard to pay your thoughts any mind when your view is that if someone doesn't like AFLW, their opinion doesn't count. If you don't like a football player on our list, does your opinion about him now not count?

One more point, re your apparent concerns, frustration, annoyances with why anyone would want to attend a women's match. I know many people who love Aussie Rules, love the game. But they have real problems with the AFL and much of the crap that is unfortunately part and parcel of the men's game. For example, the idea of being able to go to a match, with or without kids, and have a reasonable expectation that it will be free of sexist, racist and homophobic abuse does have appeal. What happens on the field, the standard of play, is important. But it is not the only thing that is important to everyone.
Women are wonderful, eh? I suppose you do get the odd or three heckler who goes to far at the big events - such is life when you have a lot of people walking through the gate. That one of the notable things you can say about the AFLW is that it attracts supporters with a moral superiority complex isn't much of a selling point for the game. If on the odd chance it does get more popular, guess who you'll get wandering through the gates? Then you'll be in that privileged group telling each other "its not what it used to be", "it never used to be this way", etc.

The standard of play can't be remotely important to you because you could watch VFL, VAFL, U18s, U16s, local park comps and watch a better standard. If you're not going to the game to watch the football, then it doesn't speak well of the product on offer. Again, if all you want is a more friendly atmosphere, you could go down and mingle with the people watching the kids play Auskick. If you want to watch decent football on the other hand...
 

WolfgangV

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Or you could answer the question. If I'm "wrong", presumably you have some idea what the crowd composition is from sitting in the outer at a few games. If you do share, I'm then curious as to what makes your opinion "right". I've watched a few short licks of the women's game on TV... I've probably seen more of the supporters than you have.
Yes, watching a bit of AFLW on television gives you more insight than someone who has been to around a dozen games and watched at least as many on television. :rolleyes: I could go into the multiple, lengthy discussions I've had fans on public transport after the games, I could talk about the new friendships I've made with people I've met at AFL matches, but there's no point, is there? It's clear that when you are confronted with a situation where someone has, by experience or effort, more knowledge on a subject, and that knowledge reveals your opinion to be ill informed, rather than accept that they most likely have more insight you fall back on the 'who made you an expert' tripe. I'll discuss anything with anyone provided I have sufficient knowledge to make an informed contribution, but I'm not wasting my time when knowledge and informed opinion is dismissed simply because it conflicts with someone's prejudices. I'm not one for pissing into the wind, so this will be my last post answering you.

That'd be probably be a fair view to have if the AFLW was piloting its own ship instead of clinging onto the coat-tails of the men's game. You're acting as if these are two separate entities, yet the women's game is entitled to funding, exposure, facilities, etc that are due them... why exactly? The AFLW is a charity case that are now grumbling about the size of their handouts. If the NBA/WNBA is any indication of a similar parasitic sporting relationship, the AFLW has buckley's chance of standing on its own feet.
Funny you should mention this, as what you are perhaps inadvertently advocating is maybe not such an unrealistic possibility. I've been coming around to the opinion that the worst thing that could have happened to women's football was the AFL getting it's hands on it, and it seems I'm not the only one. Have a read of the following;

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/07/is-it-time-for-womens-game-to-break-free-from-afls-shackles

As for your charity case argument, the figures would suggest this is overstated. The AFL last week released the competition membership figures for 2018. Based on their numbers of AFLW members at the eight current clubs, and assuming what the Dees charge for their AFLW membership is roughly equivalent to the other seven clubs, comfortably over one million dollars were paid in AFLW memberships this year. Not bad for a competition in only it's second year. Given what the women are paid, that would go close to paying half the salary bill for the entire comp. Throw in the sponsorships that the AFL and the individual clubs secured and it wouldn't be outrageous to conclude that the playing bill has been paid without a single AFL "handout". Now obviously there are more costs to running the comp than just the player payments, but the idea that the AFLW is totally parasitic on the AFL is a patently untrue.

Equally, it's hard to pay your thoughts any mind when your view is that if someone doesn't like AFLW, their opinion doesn't count. If you don't like a football player on our list, does your opinion about him now not count?
Don't intentionally misrepresent my view. I said no such thing. There is a world of difference between "not liking" AFLW and your position, that no AFLW teams should exist. I have plenty of friends who don't like the AFLW but are perfectly happy to let it run. My analogy stands.

Women are wonderful, eh? I suppose you do get the odd or three heckler who goes to far at the big events - such is life when you have a lot of people walking through the gate. That one of the notable things you can say about the AFLW is that it attracts supporters with a moral superiority complex isn't much of a selling point for the game. If on the odd chance it does get more popular, guess who you'll get wandering through the gates? Then you'll be in that privileged group telling each other "its not what it used to be", "it never used to be this way", etc.
It's a pity you see that someone who has a problem with racist, homophobic and sexist abuse is someone with a "moral superiority complex", not someone who believes in according everyone a decent and deserved level of respect regardless of their race, sexual preference and gender. Not everyone does things because it gives them a "moral superiority complex" - attempting to dismissing them as such I guess makes it easier to dismiss ideas of equal opportunity and thus dismiss the idea of an AFLW.

standard of play can't be remotely important to you because you could watch VFL, VAFL, U18s, U16s, local park comps and watch a better standard. If you're not going to the game to watch the football, then it doesn't speak well of the product on offer. Again, if all you want is a more friendly atmosphere, you could go down and mingle with the people watching the kids play Auskick. If you want to watch decent football on the other hand...
There are a lot of people who don't like a lot of things in this world, and find it hard to understand how others could. Me, I don't like basketball. However I do accept that some people enjoy it and want to watch it, and I have no belief that it shouldn't exist. That's called tolerance. Unfortunately you don't like AFLW, don't want to accept other people do for reasons other than some sense of moral superiority, and thus don't believe that it should exist. That's called intolerance.

And on that point, here's a final one to consider before I retire myself from our discussion. I'm sure most people would agree that it is a good thing that the AFL puts some if its revenue into junior football across the country. But how many people would argue that money should only go to boy's football, and girls be deliberately excluded? I would hope, and expect, not many. So, when those kids, boys and girls start playing, do we say to them "If you are fortunate enough to be sufficiently talented, and are prepared to train hard and dedicate yourself to football, you can aspire to play in a national competition. Oh, only if you are a boy, that is, you girls won't be given that opportunity." For those who think there should be no AFLW, that is precisely the choice you have - discriminate against girls right from the get go, or tell them they can only go so far and then be shut out. And if that is not sexist discrimination, I don't know what is.
 

jatz14

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Or you could answer the question. If I'm "wrong", presumably you have some idea what the crowd composition is from sitting in the outer at a few games. If you do share, I'm then curious as to what makes your opinion "right". I've watched a few short licks of the women's game on TV... I've probably seen more of the supporters than you have.



That'd be probably be a fair view to have if the AFLW was piloting its own ship instead of clinging onto the coat-tails of the men's game. You're acting as if these are two separate entities, yet the women's game is entitled to funding, exposure, facilities, etc that are due them... why exactly? The AFLW is a charity case that are now grumbling about the size of their handouts. If the NBA/WNBA is any indication of a similar parasitic sporting relationship, the AFLW has buckley's chance of standing on its own feet.

Equally, it's hard to pay your thoughts any mind when your view is that if someone doesn't like AFLW, their opinion doesn't count. If you don't like a football player on our list, does your opinion about him now not count?



Women are wonderful, eh? I suppose you do get the odd or three heckler who goes to far at the big events - such is life when you have a lot of people walking through the gate. That one of the notable things you can say about the AFLW is that it attracts supporters with a moral superiority complex isn't much of a selling point for the game. If on the odd chance it does get more popular, guess who you'll get wandering through the gates? Then you'll be in that privileged group telling each other "its not what it used to be", "it never used to be this way", etc.

The standard of play can't be remotely important to you because you could watch VFL, VAFL, U18s, U16s, local park comps and watch a better standard. If you're not going to the game to watch the football, then it doesn't speak well of the product on offer. Again, if all you want is a more friendly atmosphere, you could go down and mingle with the people watching the kids play Auskick. If you want to watch decent football on the other hand...
AFL is a not for profit, that has taken upon itself the role of guardian of the sport. It has also taken upon itself the role of social justice warrior. It has also taken upon itself, for its own reasons the role of promoter of women's footy.

Up until the decision to create a national league, the AFL did almost nothing for women's footy. The fact that women's footy had got to the point the AFL was interested in a national league is basically entirely down to local women's footy and not at all due to the AFL.

The decision to form a national league is also down to the fact they were persuaded it was in their own self interest.

So, explain then how the AFLW, entirely created by the AFL for its own purposes represents women's footy riding the coattails of the AFL?

If the not for profit, custodian of the game, seld interested founder of the national women's league, doesn't pay for the women's league, who should?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
 

Topkent

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I like AFLW. I think it's just as good as watching the VFL. I don't see why people are being such d|ck$ about it tbh.
You can't possibly think it's even close to the standard.

Jeez the entitlement of the women is something else, I can't think of any other example where a competition costs money to run, has free entry, has to run in a window so that people won't forget about it, and who's athletes are paid despite losing money for the competition and still bitch and moan and demand more.

They are ungrateful and entitled, been given an opportunity they don't financially deserve and they want more!

It's like they can't process business and finances
 

SuburbanMe

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You can't possibly think it's even close to the standard.

Jeez the entitlement of the women is something else, I can't think of any other example where a competition costs money to run, has free entry, has to run in a window so that people won't forget about it, and who's athletes are paid despite losing money for the competition and still bitch and moan and demand more.

They are ungrateful and entitled, been given an opportunity they don't financially deserve and they want more!

It's like they can't process business and finances
It's going into its 3rd season. Just let that sink in a little bit. 3. Not 100+ years, Simply 3. 1, 2, 3. Entry costs were waived to help it, does that really matter in these early stages?

It's really a case of support it, of stfu about it. It doesn't hurt you or anybody else. If you wanna bang on about financial viability, then I suggest you change your argument to focus more on GCS, than the AFLW, otherwise you (people in general) just come across as a whiney bitch that has nothing better to do than piss and moan about giving women the opportunity to participate in a sport that men have dominated for over a century.

Just think about that. Millions are being constantly pumped into the expansion teams, K.HUNT and I.FOLAU were given $4 million + each as token marketing ploys, yet there's this issue with a womens league that is actually pretty damn good, especially for only being 2-3yrs in, and has already seen a massive increase in young girls playing the game at junior levels.

Sorry if you think I'm being condescending, but these anti womens league posts are f'n stupid, shortsighted, bullshit.

It takes nothing away from the mens game, unlike the expansion teams, it has ZERO impact on your life, so why the dickish attitude towards it?

Why can't you just wish them well, and move on?
 

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Topkent

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It's going into its 3rd season. Just let that sink in a little bit. 3. Not 100+ years, Simply 3. 1, 2, 3. Entry costs were waived to help it, does that really matter in these early stages?

It's really a case of support it, of stfu about it. It doesn't hurt you or anybody else. If you wanna bang on about financial viability, then I suggest you change your argument to focus more on GCS, than the AFLW, otherwise you (people in general) just come across as a whiney bitch that has nothing better to do than piss and moan about giving women the opportunity to participate in a sport that men have dominated for over a century.

Just think about that. Millions are being constantly pumped into the expansion teams, K.HUNT and I.FOLAU were given $4 million + each as token marketing ploys, yet there's this issue with a womens league that is actually pretty damn good, especially for only being 2-3yrs in, and has already seen a massive increase in young girls playing the game at junior levels.

Sorry if you think I'm being condescending, but these anti womens league posts are f'n stupid, shortsighted, bullshit.

It takes nothing away from the mens game, unlike the expansion teams, it has ZERO impact on your life, so why the dickish attitude towards it?

Why can't you just wish them well, and move on?
Because you can't have a discussion and only accept one side of an opinion.

I Didn't come here to complain about the existence of the women's league, I pointed out the ridiculous situation where the women are complaining and screaming injustices when in all reality they have been given an incredible opportunity based on them having vaginas and not dicks. A bunch of the women just rocked in from other sports and now expect to be given everything on a silver platter.

The men played in a semi professional league for 120 years, the women need to pay their dues aswell.
 

SuburbanMe

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Because you can't have a discussion and only accept one side of an opinion.

I Didn't come here to complain about the existence of the women's league, I pointed out the ridiculous situation where the women are complaining and screaming injustices when in all reality they have been given an incredible opportunity based on them having vaginas and not dicks. A bunch of the women just rocked in from other sports and now expect to be given everything on a silver platter.

The men played in a semi professional league for 120 years, the women need to pay their dues aswell.
And now the women are getting their chance. That's why they have "Just rocked in from other sports". How are they asking for everything on a silver platter? By being pissed at the AFL already messing with their comp and trying to shorten their season, which in no way takes away from the premier competition?

That's a bit harsh. From my POV - they're asking for continued support to grow the competition, instead of the afl trying to switch priorities for this AFLX garbage. Listening to Daisy talk about it, she wants people to pay to go to the games, she openly said that in a few seasons, people will look at daisy and wonder how she got a game, because it'll develop so quickly due to the sheer amount of girls that have come on board at junior levels.

I can say from first hand experience, My nieces now play junior footy for the redlegs. They love Daisy, the love the womens game. the other kids involved feel the same way. Hell there is this one girl on their team that is f'n amazing. She runs hard, tackles properly, can kick way beyond her years, And i always laugh at how bloody good she is. I swear she must have older brothers or something, because she's bloody good. She's maybe 12 years old.

So try to understand that the AFLW is way more beneficial than you think it is. Think beyond what you are currently seeing. Go to junior level girls game and see how much these girls love the game and are now relishing the opportunity to one day be able to play at the top level like their new heroes in the AFLW. They're now getting the opportunity that you and I have had from birth.
 

Topkent

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And now the women are getting their chance. That's why they have "Just rocked in from other sports". How are they asking for everything on a silver platter? By being pissed at the AFL already messing with their comp and trying to shorten their season, which in no way takes away from the premier competition?

That's a bit harsh. From my POV - they're asking for continued support to grow the competition, instead of the afl trying to switch priorities for this AFLX garbage. Listening to Daisy talk about it, she wants people to pay to go to the games, she openly said that in a few seasons, people will look at daisy and wonder how she got a game, because it'll develop so quickly due to the sheer amount of girls that have come on board at junior levels.

I can say from first hand experience, My nieces now play junior footy for the redlegs. They love Daisy, the love the womens game. the other kids involved feel the same way. Hell there is this one girl on their team that is f'n amazing. She runs hard, tackles properly, can kick way beyond her years, And i always laugh at how bloody good she is. I swear she must have older brothers or something, because she's bloody good. She's maybe 12 years old.

So try to understand that the AFLW is way more beneficial than you think it is. Think beyond what you are currently seeing. Go to junior level girls game and see how much these girls love the game and are now relishing the opportunity to one day be able to play at the top level like their new heroes in the AFLW. They're now getting the opportunity that you and I have had from birth.
That's all fantastic and irrelevant.
They are demanding an extended competition, now daisy wants people to pay? Hope she will be happy when they play in front of crowds of 500 people.

They are simply ignoring the financial impact not benefit their competition has, who do they expect to pay for it? They need to build a competition that people are interested in before they get parity with men.
 

SuburbanMe

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That's all fantastic and irrelevant.
They are demanding an extended competition, now daisy wants people to pay? Hope she will be happy when they play in front of crowds of 500 people.

They are simply ignoring the financial impact not benefit their competition has, who do they expect to pay for it? They need to build a competition that people are interested in before they get parity with men.
So hang on, You're saying that Having a top level for junior girls to aim for isn't building the comp from the ground up?
It's growing the female aspect of the game all over - from junior to Pro! How is wanting 9 games over the summer period asking for everything on a silver platter, or asking for parity with the mens comp? That is one of the most ridiculous comments dude. You should listen to the interviews Daisy has done regarding the issue and come back and then comment. I think your opinion may change a tad.
 

Marc_Remillard

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It's really a case of support it, of stfu about it. It doesn't hurt you or anybody else.
i don't get this argument at all, it's a pretty big cost and along with the financial drain of the expansion clubs it's actualyl having a big impact on where money should be spent. Have a chat to anyone in local clubs and ask them about the ridiculous costs the AFL are subjecting them to with regards to coaching requirements.
 

Cannon82

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It's going into its 3rd season. Just let that sink in a little bit. 3. Not 100+ years, Simply 3. 1, 2, 3. Entry costs were waived to help it, does that really matter in these early stages?
If people aren't paying to see it, why should the performers be paid?

Does anyone have any non-wishy washy reasons that aren't plucked out of thin air as to why this competition should exist other than plumbing and drainage?
 

PerfectFooty

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If people aren't paying to see it, why should the performers be paid?

Does anyone have any non-wishy washy reasons that aren't plucked out of thin air as to why this competition should exist other than plumbing and drainage?
That isn't necessarily the players fault, it's more the AFL. I get they're trying to establish it, but it should have been selling tickets when it started
 

Cannon82

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That isn't necessarily the players fault, it's more the AFL. I get they're trying to establish it, but it should have been selling tickets when it started
And you'd have a lot less people attending. There's a reason there wasn't a women's footy competition, and it's the same reason there's not a men's netball competition.
 

Topkent

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That isn't necessarily the players fault, it's more the AFL. I get they're trying to establish it, but it should have been selling tickets when it started
The VFL, under 18s, SANFL etc hardly pull crowds. They want money and longer seasons but it can't be both it's simply not an will never be viable.
So hang on, You're saying that Having a top level for junior girls to aim for isn't building the comp from the ground up?
It's growing the female aspect of the game all over - from junior to Pro! How is wanting 9 games over the summer period asking for everything on a silver platter, or asking for parity with the mens comp? That is one of the most ridiculous comments dude. You should listen to the interviews Daisy has done regarding the issue and come back and then comment. I think your opinion may change a tad.
We aren't having the same argument, yours is 'don't you think women an my daughter's should be happy?' While mine is based around financial fact.
 

PerfectFooty

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The VFL, under 18s, SANFL etc hardly pull crowds. They want money and longer seasons but it can't be both it's simply not an will never be viable.


We aren't having the same argument, yours is 'don't you think women an my daughter's should be happy?' While mine is based around financial fact.
I disagree, and the argument can't go far from here between us because we'll just sling back and forward. But i enjoy AFLW, and it's not going to be a fad, but i think it can be viable.

From a simple stand point, if we're going to expand the league teams should play each other once
 

Proper Gander

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As an aside, Essendon came out and said they felt their bid would make a profit in year 1 with free attendance.

I think there’s an underestimation of just how much merchandise and how many memberships are being sold due to the AFLW.
I believe the girls merchandise has taken right off. Makes sense really. The bulk of merchandise is sold to people getting presents for kids and they’ve doubled their target group.
 

Cannon82

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As an aside, Essendon came out and said they felt their bid would make a profit in year 1 with free attendance.

I think there’s an underestimation of just how much merchandise and how many memberships are being sold due to the AFLW.
Interesting statement. Clubs make merchandising money, not teams. Must be expecting to sell a lot of AFLW merchandise to accommodate whatever the salary cap is alone. Of course, if someone buys an AFLW shirt, are they also going to buy the AFL equivalent? In most cases, unlikely. Probably will be some tragics out there who buy one of everything in the merchandise van, but not enough to float a new team. I'd be curious to see how much the overall merchandising sales went up, particularly once the shiny new tag has worn off and a large number of fans have already purchased the gimmick items.

Would guess they're not taking into account the insurance costs, administration, ground upkeep, coaching, equipment, logistics, etc that come with the team as well. I'm sure they're being firmly tucked under the "general" AFL club costs instead of being associated with the AFLW team. I went into this a bit in one of my other posts and you guys deleted it, so won't bother again.

How much do the memberships cost, out of curiousity?
 

LeverPuller

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Interesting statement. Clubs make merchandising money, not teams. Must be expecting to sell a lot of AFLW merchandise to accommodate whatever the salary cap is alone. Of course, if someone buys an AFLW shirt, are they also going to buy the AFL equivalent? In most cases, unlikely. Probably will be some tragics out there who buy one of everything in the merchandise van, but not enough to float a new team. I'd be curious to see how much the overall merchandising sales went up, particularly once the shiny new tag has worn off and a large number of fans have already purchased the gimmick items.

Would guess they're not taking into account the insurance costs, administration, ground upkeep, coaching, equipment, logistics, etc that come with the team as well. I'm sure they're being firmly tucked under the "general" AFL club costs instead of being associated with the AFLW team. I went into this a bit in one of my other posts and you guys deleted it, so won't bother again.

How much do the memberships cost, out of curiousity?
They don’t exist, expansion of sales of AFL memberships covering costs I believe
 

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