- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
That is still youngish in aircraft terms.
Qantas’ 737’s are 12 years old and their A330’s are nearing 14 years old.
Business & Finance Airline Industry
- Thread starter BACCS
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Qantas’ 737’s are 12 years old and their A330’s are nearing 14 years old.
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
All those are happy to walk away and will be wiped out
The bond holders will be the ones that stand to lose the most.
Or were the current shareholders expecting Govt money. Are they party to the leases?
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
I think 4 of the 5 parties care about the business and would like Government money but probably realise that without major changes things weren’t going to improve. HNA is as good as dead so they probably couldn’t care less what happens to their share. I don’t know the legality of who is responsible for the leases as it’s not an area I have great knowledge in. The A330’s being leased are fantastic aircraft but it was a very poor lease arrangement and the administrators will find a way to either cut them completely or re-negotiate them. I would try to keep them as they offer a great product for Transcon service but with the amount of aircraft sitting idle I’m sure the lessors will take whatever they get for them
Not enough to stump up as yet.
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
And they probably won’t IMO
All are dealing with their own major financial difficulties and Virgin unfortunately is probably lowest on their list of priorities.
Best thing that could happen is if all are removed
Someone like TPG will probably buy it, sell off all the landing slots to airlines with no licence to operate in Australia yet, asset strip, and then do a slick PR campaign selling it off for heaps while being worth less than zero. Just as they did with Myer. And three months after the refloat, we'll have a monopoly airline again for 2-3 years while someone else gets licences sorted and operates main routes only.
- Jul 23, 2010
- 5,766
- 4,141
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
sounds about right - wouldn’t surprise me if macquarie ends up balls deep in it also
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
I personally don’t think that will be the case but who knows. It all depends with who buys them but I think Virgin will still continue but not sure what it will look like.
Except they are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them, which at the moment is scrap value
$2.3 B Secured $2 B Bonds $1.9 B Aircraft Leases $0.5 B Employees 0.25 B Trade and Leases. 6.9 Billion in total the creditors are getting a buzz cut shortly
Virgin Australia Mk II could launch in as little as three months
Virgin's administrators want to see a new owner in place by the end of June.
www.executivetraveller.com
A reborn Virgin Australia could be flying in as little as three months, with administrators seeking to lock down offers from potential new owners by the middle of June.
"This is not intended to be a long protracted process," Deloitte partner and administrator Vaughan Strawbridge said during a media conference call earlier this week.
"This is about working with a very sophisticated number of interested parties to map out and plan and get the restructuring through in the shortest amount of time... the intent is to run hard."
Under Deloitte's timetable for Virgin Mk II, as revealed by The Australian Financial Review, the shape of the new airline will be revealed to potential buyers in early May.
The administrators will then accept "non-binding indicative offers" through to the middle of May, while "serious, binding offers" must be lodged by mid-June, with the intention of signing contracts by the end of June.
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
Yeah I wasn’t having a go at you just hearing plenty of commentary from people saying VA have an ageing fleet when in fact it is still a pretty good darn fleet.
I agree there will be a decent buzz cut and I’d expect the bond traders to get 4/5ths of SFA and I’d guess they will try to re-negotiate or get out of some/all of the lease arrangements.
I would have thought that some of those are liabilities, for example I expect they dont owe $1.9B for aircraft leases but have to pay $1.9B going forward to comply with the current aircarft leases as per the current contracts.
Like wise with Stage Wages/Entitlements, it's a liability and only payable when due.
- Jan 18, 2015
- 4,883
- 12,192
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Not sure who owns Perth airport or who provides legal advice to them but as I understand it there are laws which determine the order in which creditors are looked after in the case of a company going bust. Creditors can't just go in free for all and start stealing assets to recover their debts.
Imagine you paid for a tradie to do some work on your house and they went bust before the work was finished. No worries I'll just pop round to the guys house and drive off with his truck.
Nothing
Norm Smith Medallist
- Jul 30, 2009
- 9,098
- 14,221
- AFL Club
- Fremantle
Pert Airport is privately owned (Hedge fund from memory). They are applying lien, which means they can hold assets in their control until their debts are settled.
In your situation, if the tradie left tools at your house, and you were owed money, you could apply lien similarly over those tools. You couldn't go to his house and steal his truck/tools.
- Apr 19, 2015
- 16,618
- 14,165
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Other Teams
- Manchester United, Juventus,
If any airport was going to do it then Perth would be it.
Qantas have been in dispute with them for years and had even been looking at other options. Perth airport isn’t well liked in the industry at all
- Jan 18, 2015
- 4,883
- 12,192
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Thanks for the clarification, do they at least need some sort of court order? What protects Virgin if the claim is contestable? Also especially if they need those assets to generate revenue (I know in this case the planes aren't doing anything so that's a moot point).
Assuming there's multiple creditors (other airports) it seems a bit of a free for all, especially if they try to trade out of their troubles when travel bans are relaxed. If Virgin owes more to Sydney airport than Perth but there's no planes on the ground, why does Perth get priority?
Seems like the wild west.
Nothing
Norm Smith Medallist
- Jul 30, 2009
- 9,098
- 14,221
- AFL Club
- Fremantle
Within reason everyone could try and do it. I believe you can only lien assets to the value of what you are owed. If Virgin move out of administration then Perth Airport, as a creditor, will be satisfied. It's not my area of expertise though.
- Jan 18, 2015
- 4,883
- 12,192
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
Cars, excavator used to impound Virgin planes at Perth Airport amid stand-off over 'significant' debt
Perth Airport is using heavy machinery and company vehicles to block a number of Virgin Australia aircraft from taking off over what it says are $16 million in unpaid debts.
www.abc.net.au
"Perth Airport says the debt-laden airline owes it $16 million in outstanding invoices for airfield and terminal use charges."
Must be pretty ordinary planes to be worth less than $16 mil in total. What are they, crop dusters?
Mindtraveller
Premium Gold
Veteran
St Kilda - Marcus Windhager Player Sponsor 2023
St Kilda - Marcus Windhager Player Sponsor 2022
St Kilda - Nathan Freeman Player Sponsor 2017
St Kilda - Nathan Freeman Player Sponsor 2016
St Kilda - Player Sponsor Nathan Wright 2015
St Kilda - Nathan Wright Player Sponsor 2014
St Kilda Saints - Tom Ledger Sponsor 2013
Any chance they could be rentals?
Cars, excavator used to impound Virgin planes at Perth Airport amid stand-off over 'significant' debt
Perth Airport is using heavy machinery and company vehicles to block a number of Virgin Australia aircraft from taking off over what it says are $16 million in unpaid debts.
"Perth Airport says the debt-laden airline owes it $16 million in outstanding invoices for airfield and terminal use charges."
Must be pretty ordinary planes to be worth less than $16 mil in total. What are they, crop dusters?
- Apr 2, 2013
- 10,981
- 16,393
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
It'll be like Ansett when it crashed it will float/glide a while during administration but with no bailout unless sold its crashing.
Difference with Ansett where virgin sprung overnight from is covoid means no credit is left as gov is in debt.
Don't understand the Chinese mindset here. If they recover from covoid they can set up here. People will be upset but Virgin essentially replaced Ansett and flights to Qld were no longer 400.
My point is I don't understand China picking over Virgin's carcass they are better off partnering local start afresh and expand when other countries open
Might be a good time to build the fast rail
The trade creditors and rent probably wont get paid , so I suppose it's worth a try, although it shouldnt work. Secured creditors and employees would be paid out I would think, I can't see anyone stumping more than 3 billion but who knows it may not even be that.
All those foreign shareholders knew they were stuffed, it will be interesting if the bond holders go after UBS, as the organisation may have been in trouble then.
- Apr 2, 2013
- 10,981
- 16,393
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Wouldn't it work the other way in this case? Tradie has provided the service but you've gone bust before you can pay. So the Tradie helps themselves to your car.
- Apr 2, 2013
- 10,981
- 16,393
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
Intersting to see if demand warrants airlines. Or it has become entrenched and is still a viable market. Growing up in the 80s 90s flights were expensive. You may get 1 interstate trip holiday a year and most people went overseas for one big holiday and a honeymoon.
Now with cheap airfares its a free for all. (Kind of the reverse of house prices). Some specials you can go i/state for $40 and if you have some in well paid jobs going to 30 countries by 30 where a mortgage while always hard is crippling for some.
Wonder which way it goes back or if houses go bust and no more airlines we revert back to people buying and sacrificing the trips. I make no judgement either way just be interesting to see how it turns.
Now with cheap airfares its a free for all. (Kind of the reverse of house prices). Some specials you can go i/state for $40 and if you have some in well paid jobs going to 30 countries by 30 where a mortgage while always hard is crippling for some.
Wonder which way it goes back or if houses go bust and no more airlines we revert back to people buying and sacrificing the trips. I make no judgement either way just be interesting to see how it turns.
