Alien/UFO Aliens

[Duritz]

^^^ sooo many weather balloons these days.

 

[Shane Hird]

This one is awesome!



To stop in its tracks straight after the Jet goes by and then hover in its jet stream is unreal. Great footage and seems authentic which was only captured yesterday or very recently. Video has gone a bit viral on Youtube and Twitter.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/569658/20141015/ufo-sighting-trailing-jet-amsterdam.htm#.VD4wSRb9kjo

You wonder what they are doing flying around jet streams...but maybe the pilot is a rogue smartarse alien.

Maybe there's loads of smartarse aliens flying around doing stunts over cities for the fun of it.

 

[Play by Numbers]

If aliens are visiting this planet then there are things to consider:

This is one of the things about alien agency, it is wrong to project values and infer purpose. Concepts like "study" or even the ability to experience, and how an alien race may go about this, or it's value system and what it considers the appropriate use of time and resources, or even how it perceives these things, could be fundamentally different to how humans might.

Posted elsewhere:

My guess, if Aliens visit earth most are unlikely to do so in their own bodies, or they will have evolved past the reliance on a body programmed and grown according to a set hereditary code.
Much like the movie avatar, I think any alien species would be best served exploring new and unusual terrain, either via proxy, or using a host body. Likewise, if they can travel vast distances, so might they be able to communicate or operate vehicles or replacement bodies at vast distances.

As for not being bound to a particular physical form, humans are at least technologically laying the ground work for such an evolutionary leap now. Experience sharing, is one such small step, likewise advancements in regenerative medicine, which may allow us to grow replacement human tissue.

My greater point I guess is, that if we have met and interacted with aliens and this is disclosed, the full scope of their existance, what they are and what kind of being they represent may either not be readily apparent, or will change and alter our understanding of life more fundamentally, than just confirmation of intelligent life in the wider universe.

Finally, what if the life we encounter is not only artificial, so a grown, engineered or designed entity, but also unaware of it's function as a host organism? Is our programming and mental hardware compatible with such an entity or capable of recognition and interaction?

So lack of disclosure may be as much about choice, as it is simply about our inability to recognise, relate and interact with such life in any meaningful fashion.

The reasons 'why' I always find problematic. The 'program' might simply be the extraterrestrial equivalent of a puppy farm. After all, what can we offer a species that can master space/time and build things that fly really, really fast? The 'why' is invariably, and not unreasonably, completely constructed from our perspective, both with humans at the centre of the narrative and the narrative framed in our terms of understanding. What I mean by this is we're like the chickens and they the farmers. We're talking like chickens, from the chicken's perspective. We simply cannot frame the narrative in something we have no idea about.

So basically, if they exist, we may not be able to perceive their existance, or at least not in totality. If we can make contact however, could we even communicate. If we do communicate, are we even doing so with independant beings, ie. the agency behind the alien presence and finally, could we even perceive motive.

The idea of alien human interaction is so problematic, outside of unnasociated physical risks, because they are just that. For a species as competitive as humans, such contact poses real danger, even if the aliens do not, because our behavior and response is often fundamentally self destructive. Human evolution, has still not caught up with our environment and social condition. We are still the short term thinkers of prehistoric past, where life was shorter and social groups were smaller. We don't do "momentous" or long term planning and strategic thinking well, which is what such occasions, or complex modern societies require

As for my personal beliefs, I think it is probable there is other intelligent life in the universe. Has it traveled to earth, I am unsure. It could be from earth, another planet, another dimension or a parallel earth. Heck, we might have even been coexisting and not even known it.

What I do know is, is that such an encounter could not and should not be taken on face value. The liklihood of using a proxy to explore earth would be high, it would be the safest method. Therefore, motive might be difficult to establish and it is less the physical interaction that is meaningful and more the greater experience and what such life forms may represent that holds true value. Our view of what constitutes life, perception and purpose could radically change if we adapted and stayed always curious about the experience.

 

[van peebles]

So basically, if they exist, we may not be able to perceive their existance, or at least not in totality

play by numbers
Exactly.ufo sightings may be actually real brain visions of something thats happening but only "picked up" by a certain brain at a certain time.

 

[Sublime]

So basically, if they exist, we may not be able to perceive their existance, or at least not in totality

play by numbers
Exactly.ufo sightings may be actually real brain visions of something thats happening but only "picked up" by a certain brain at a certain time.

So would that make mass UFO sightings most likely something easily explainable or human made?

That said, if they're brain visions as you call them, wouldn't it also be just as possible that they only exist in that persons brain rather than in any physical form?

This is getting super confusing now. Why can't they just be little green men with big eyes coming to make contact?

 

[van peebles]

So would that make mass UFO sightings most likely something easily explainable or human made?

That said, if they're brain visions as you call them, wouldn't it also be just as possible that they only exist in that persons brain rather than in any physical form?

This is getting super confusing now. Why can't they just be little green men with big eyes coming to make contact?

The real answer is thus.
Imagine you are driving your car in space.
You put the headlights on.
1/Do they shine forward?
2/do they get polarised backwards?
3/Do they work at all?
All assignments to be handed in by next monday.

 

[brahj]

The real answer is thus.
Imagine you are driving your car in space.
You put the headlights on.
1/Do they shine forward?
2/do they get polarised backwards?
3/Do they work at all?
All assignments to be handed in by next monday.

1. Due to a lack of air-proof seals on your car doors, you have died in the vacuum of space. Your headlights can't help you now.
2. See above.
3. See above.

 

[van peebles]

1. Due to a lack of air-proof seals on your car doors, you have died in the vacuum of space. Your headlights can't help you now.
2. See above.
3. See above.

Fail.
The key word was "imagine".
Resit exam and do extra study.

 

[brahj]

Fail.
The key word was "imagine".
Resit exam and do extra study.

1. John Lennon failed to fit air-proof seals to your car doors, you have died in the vacuum of space. Your headlights still can't help you.
2. See above.
3. See above.

 

[Play by Numbers]

So would that make mass UFO sightings most likely something easily explainable or human made?

That said, if they're brain visions as you call them, wouldn't it also be just as possible that they only exist in that persons brain rather than in any physical form?

This is getting super confusing now. Why can't they just be little green men with big eyes coming to make contact?

Well, here is a pretty scifi hypothesis, though some detail to begin. Humans right now, are slowly but increasingly outsourcing cognitive function to third party devices. Think google effect but larger. Our memories, problem solving, streamlining creativity, all sorts of things. It is creating, for lack of a better explanation a proto shared digital subconscious.

Our thoughts, as repsented by likes, interests, purchases, uploads and activities, exist in digital form, these create trends which are interpreted by analytics, and lead to targeted products and advertising, services or changes to the online landscape. This in turn effects the behavior and thoughts of consumers or users. An interesting phenomena. So how is this relevant. An advanced humanoid species is likely to have experienced such a progression naturally, if similar enough to ours, where progression in communication may eventually lead to a kind of shared technological super-consciousness.

Such a state is both hard for us to understand and perceive. If self aware, such an intelligence may have a completely different level of cognition interpreting events, the subtlety or profundity of it's influence on the surrounding universe, or the sums of it's parts in a completely different fashion to even a hyper intelligent human like species.

How could we possibly understand it, or possibly even perceive it as an existent entity. Likewise, how or why would it want to communicate. I mean sure, it may be able to, but what if it did so by creating a certain sequence of events, rather than using direct language. Sure it may shape us, or our experience in a certain way that made us arrive at an insight or conclusion, however we still might not be able to pinpoint direct agency, instead thinking it chance or "fate".

Anyway, my hypothesis is, imagine we meet aliens, say grey aliens, or even something as simple as an alien that appeared to be human, but couldn't possibly be. Now our inclination would be to take circumstances on face value, but what if that alien was really an avatar or proxy for a being we couldn't really understand or interact with. What complications could arise, or even if we eventually came to understand the situation, would it completely reshape our view of ourselves, intelligence and even the universe.

See to me this makes sense. Any hyper intelligence interested in another more primitive species or planet would surely use proxies to interact or observe. Firstly, it is safer for both parties. All sorts of complications could form from lifeforms interracting with a alien environment . Secondly, if you wanted to observe a species, without changing its behavior, limiting exposure would be absolutely essential. A physical or technological avatar similar enough to not cause catastrophic reaction, when the species is advanced enough to discover it and well hidden enough that it stays secret till the species is capable of dealing with the situation. More intriguingly though, imagine if such a being to not effect the integrity of the hosts, or because such a process was in tune with it's nature, wrote itself in as kind of a subconscious, that manifested as feelings, or ideas, or in dreams. The aliens likely don't even know it is there, or may not even know they are aliens at all.

lol

 

[Sublime]

Well, here is a pretty scifi hypothesis, though some detail to begin. Humans right now, are slowly but increasingly outsourcing cognitive function to third party devices. Think google effect but larger. Our memories, problem solving, streamlining creativity, all sorts of things. It is creating, for lack of a better explanation a proto shared digital subconscious.

Our thoughts, as repsented by likes, interests, purchases, uploads and activities, exist in digital form, these create trends which are interpreted by analytics, and lead to targeted products and advertising, services or changes to the online landscape. This in turn effects the behavior and thoughts of consumers or users. An interesting phenomena. So how is this relevant. An advanced humanoid species is likely to have experienced such a progression naturally, if similar enough to ours, where progression in communication may eventually lead to a kind of shared technological super-consciousness.

Such a state is both hard for us to understand and perceive. If self aware, such an intelligence may have a completely different level of cognition interpreting events, the subtlety or profundity of it's influence on the surrounding universe, or the sums of it's parts in a completely different fashion to even a hyper intelligent human like species.

How could we possibly understand it, or possibly even perceive it as an existent entity. Likewise, how or why would it want to communicate. I mean sure, it may be able to, but what if it did so by creating a certain sequence of events, rather than using direct language. Sure it may shape us, or our experience in a certain way that made us arrive at an insight or conclusion, however we still might not be able to pinpoint direct agency, instead thinking it chance or "fate".

Anyway, my hypothesis is, imagine we meet aliens, say grey aliens, or even something as simple as an alien that appeared to be human, but couldn't possibly be. Now our inclination would be to take circumstances on face value, but what if that alien was really an avatar or proxy for a being we couldn't really understand or interact with. What complications could arise, or even if we eventually came to understand the situation, would it completely reshape our view of ourselves, intelligence and even the universe.

See to me this makes sense. Any hyper intelligence interested in another more primitive species or planet would surely use proxies to interact or observe. Firstly, it is safer for both parties. All sorts of complications could form from lifeforms interracting with a alien environment . Secondly, if you wanted to observe a species, without changing its behavior, limiting exposure would be absolutely essential. A physical or technological avatar similar enough to not cause catastrophic reaction, when the species is advanced enough to discover it and well hidden enough that it stays secret till the species is capable of dealing with the situation. More intriguingly though, imagine if such a being to not effect the integrity of the hosts, or because such a process was in tune with it's nature, wrote itself in as kind of a subconscious, that manifested as feelings, or ideas, or in dreams. The aliens likely don't even know it is there, or may not even know they are aliens at all.

lol

Interesting take on it.

Say it is like in the movie Avatar, would it be of more benefit to be look exactly like humans to attempt to 'fit in' without humans realising in order to learn about them? Or do you think it would be more beneficial for them to make themselves more known so that they can share and create a bond/partnership with us?

 

[Play by Numbers]

Interesting take on it.

Say it is like in the movie Avatar, would it be of more benefit to be look exactly like humans to attempt to 'fit in' without humans realising in order to learn about them? Or do you think it would be more beneficial for them to make themselves more known so that they can share and create a bond/partnership with us?

No idea.

I suppose it depends on the purpose. If the idea is direct observation then human like aliens that don't know they are alien. If it's simply to interract with alien environments, it may be an all purpose species, something like the greys. But this is just me being both literal and superimposing my values

Anyway, it's just a hypothesis is all, though one I believe worthy of discussion. If we meet an advanced alien species who has travelled here, it is likely the physical beings we meet are avatars of sorts. Either directly controlled or indirectly. Also that, if there really is an advanced species interested in hummanity, we either a) couldn't perceive or understand it, even if we realised it was here, or b) could be interacting with proxy beings and not even realise it.

It seems odd I know, but just like human views on artificial intelligence they are often distinctly human. We imagine a being with similar needs, though also hardwired for competition, more advanced but not abstractly so and vaguely menacing. There must be truly bizzare forms life could take, likewise surely levels of intelligence and perception, that render interaction or even the ability to comprehend another being difficult

 

[Duritz]

Sure there's likely truly bizarre versions of life out there, but in order to travel through space etc they'd need to be sentient, mobile and intelligent. This rules out every form of life on this planet except one. It's therefore likely to rule out every form of life everywhere except for a tiny %. Therefore, to travel through space there's very strict criteria a species needs to meet. This immediately means all space travelling species out there have many things on common. For eg - I don't think triffids are going to lob on your doorstep, but humanoids with guns may. Immediately you'd say "that's imposing humanistic pre conditions on any space travel capable being", but what I'd say is in order to be space travel capable you're more likely humanoid than triffid.

 

[TheKanga]

Imagine if our first contact with intelligent life from another world was synthetic life forms (Robots or Mechas)
Maybe something like the Geth in the video game series Mass Effect.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Sure there's likely truly bizarre versions of life out there, but in order to travel through space etc they'd need to be sentient, mobile and intelligent. This rules out every form of life on this planet except one. It's therefore likely to rule out every form of life everywhere except for a tiny %. Therefore, to travel through space there's very strict criteria a species needs to meet. This immediately means all space travelling species out there have many things on common. For eg - I don't think triffids are going to lob on your doorstep, but humanoids with guns may. Immediately you'd say "that's imposing humanistic pre conditions on any space travel capable being", but what I'd say is in order to be space travel capable you're more likely humanoid than triffid.

Who says they need to travel themselves. Far easier to send send something else.

 

[Norwood1878]

 

[Duritz]

Who says they need to travel themselves. Far easier to send send something else.

Same thing. To evolve to that stage requires you pass those same rules.

 

[little graham]

Who says they need to travel themselves. Far easier to send send something else.

 

[Catfish Alley]

Looks fake

 

[little graham]

Looks fake

 

[Play by Numbers]

Same thing. To evolve to that stage requires you pass those same rules.

What rules though?

 

[Duritz]

What rules though?

The ones I mentioned in the earlier post.

 

[Play by Numbers]

The ones I mentioned in the earlier post.

They were assumptions, not rules. Not trying to be overly critical, more I am interested on you detailing the why and whatfores of your position. I'm not sure there would or is a scientific basis for any hard and fast rules.

 

[Present Not Past]

Sure there's likely truly bizarre versions of life out there, but in order to travel through space etc they'd need to be sentient, mobile and intelligent. This rules out every form of life on this planet except one. It's therefore likely to rule out every form of life everywhere except for a tiny %. Therefore, to travel through space there's very strict criteria a species needs to meet. This immediately means all space travelling species out there have many things on common. For eg - I don't think triffids are going to lob on your doorstep, but humanoids with guns may. Immediately you'd say "that's imposing humanistic pre conditions on any space travel capable being", but what I'd say is in order to be space travel capable you're more likely humanoid than triffid.

You shouldn't put down the humble plant. Plants have been until very recently more successful on Earth than humans in terms of spreading their influence over the globe.
Your point about being sentient, mobile and intelligent is valid in terms of space travel. However, I think it's a bit of a lottery in terms of what species is going to reach these goals on other planets. Humans won the lottery here on earth. Intelligent plants may have won it else where.

 

[Duritz]

The position of a plant is to spread it's spores as far as it can to protect it's species and survive. A plant doesn't have a brain, and therefore cannot be sentient. I would argue that if plants with brains developed on other worlds we couldn't call them plants, not by our current definition. One of the factors I mentioned was mobility. Anything that dies if it uproots itself is not going to build a spaceship.