Alien/UFO Aliens

[TheKanga]

When I read a post that says other life in the universe is a given accept it as fact...what am I supposed to say...? ...its insulting..I dont want to discuss this subject with people that have that mindset...sorry i dont.

It irks me that I Have to accept that something that is not a given to even begin this discussion....I said i wouldnt argue it but dont tell me i must accept it as a given....its like telling me to accept a diety because its a given because the story has lasted 1000s of years and has billions of followers so probability is high its true

Apoligies kanga you made decent attempt at a proper discussion

I'm not trying to force my beliefs down anyones throat.
If you don't believe that's fine, I would love to know why if you can answer?
However if you are right I'd definitely have my money on a supreme being/god.

 

[TheKanga]

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I'm not trying to force my beliefs down anyones throat.
If you don't believe that's fine, I would love to know why if you can answer?
However if you are right I'd definitely have my money on a supreme being/god.

I will go 1 reason at a time so you can address each point as you like easier...

point 1....

law of physics....

the laws of physics would have to be broken....

if aliens were to be able to concur interstella travel they would be bound by the same laws of physics we have...

if you believe otherwise you are believing in
Science fiction
the supernatural
religious natures

therfore i cannot argue any of these with scientific reasoning.

 

[Duritz]

I will go 1 reason at a time so you can address each point as you like easier...

point 1....

law of physics....

the laws of physics would have to be broken....

if aliens were to be able to concur interstella travel they would be bound by the same laws of physics we have...

if you believe otherwise you are believing in
Science fiction
the supernatural
religious natures

therfore i cannot argue any of these with scientific reasoning.

He didn't ask about contact, he asked about existence. Contact is the question up for debate, given the numbers existence is not. It's a certainty.

 

[Gibbke]

It's like me going fishing and catching one fish and then stating that it is the only fish that has ever existed because it's all I can see.

...hmmm...that would explain a LOT...

 

[Gibbke]

The most important thing in the entire debate is to make a clear distinction between:
1) the concept of life on other planets - if they find microbes on Mars, then this fits the definition, and that's all that is needed...
2) the presence of intelligent life elsewhere - it may be that we pick up a signal one day, proving other civilisations are arguing over the same shit we are...
3) actual contact. This is a BIG jump...a little like knowing a certain fish lives in the Great Lakes of the USA, and expecting it to make its own way with no help to Lake Tinaroo up here...and all about as difficult. There is nothing in our science to suggest this is realistically possible, just conjecture, so you have to forgive people if they say to prove it can be done with everything suggesting presently we can't...

I'm absolutely a believer in (1)...certain elements combine in certain ways, and if you've got trillions of opportunities on trillions of planets in trillions of galaxies for these to combine and create the intricate patterns that create DNA, then surely Earth isn't the only place that's done it. The others become conjecture, with (3) a real longshot...

 

[Kram]

3) actual contact. This is a BIG jump...a little like knowing a certain fish lives in the Great Lakes of the USA, and expecting it to make its own way with no help to Lake Tinaroo up here...and all about as difficult. There is nothing in our science to suggest this is realistically possible, just conjecture, so you have to forgive people if they say to prove it can be done with everything suggesting presently we can't...

So much this.

 

[Duritz]

The most important thing in the entire debate is to make a clear distinction between:
1) the concept of life on other planets - if they find microbes on Mars, then this fits the definition, and that's all that is needed...
2) the presence of intelligent life elsewhere - it may be that we pick up a signal one day, proving other civilisations are arguing over the same shit we are...
3) actual contact. This is a BIG jump...a little like knowing a certain fish lives in the Great Lakes of the USA, and expecting it to make its own way with no help to Lake Tinaroo up here...and all about as difficult. There is nothing in our science to suggest this is realistically possible, just conjecture, so you have to forgive people if they say to prove it can be done with everything suggesting presently we can't...

I'm absolutely a believer in (1)...certain elements combine in certain ways, and if you've got trillions of opportunities on trillions of planets in trillions of galaxies for these to combine and create the intricate patterns that create DNA, then surely Earth isn't the only place that's done it. The others become conjecture, with (3) a real longshot...

Yes, this is what I'm suggesting. To be honest, 1 & 2 are certainties, but 3 is far from it.

To argue that we are the only intelligent life anywhere in the universe is ridiculous, or at the very least ignorant of the vastness of the numbers.

To argue 3 is a certainty is nearly equally ridiculous.

 

[Taylor]

Life outside Earth isn't a certainty, it's a statistically extremely high probability.

 

[TheKanga]

The most important thing in the entire debate is to make a clear distinction between:
1) the concept of life on other planets - if they find microbes on Mars, then this fits the definition, and that's all that is needed...
2) the presence of intelligent life elsewhere - it may be that we pick up a signal one day, proving other civilisations are arguing over the same shit we are...
3) actual contact. This is a BIG jump...a little like knowing a certain fish lives in the Great Lakes of the USA, and expecting it to make its own way with no help to Lake Tinaroo up here...and all about as difficult. There is nothing in our science to suggest this is realistically possible, just conjecture, so you have to forgive people if they say to prove it can be done with everything suggesting presently we can't...

I'm absolutely a believer in (1)...certain elements combine in certain ways, and if you've got trillions of opportunities on trillions of planets in trillions of galaxies for these to combine and create the intricate patterns that create DNA, then surely Earth isn't the only place that's done it. The others become conjecture, with (3) a real longshot...

Well said, I agree with you in many ways.
Our universe is so spread out and massive, I read it would take 20+ years to travel from the sun to pluto using current tech.
Interstellar travel is hard for our human mind to fathom but to a species billions of years more advanced it could be child's play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapteyn_b
This planet and it's solar system are very old at 11.5 billion years old, nearly as old as the universe itself.
Imagine what an intelligent species could accomplish in that time...
Look at what we have accomplished over the last millennia, I think FTL travel is in our future we just can't fathom it yet.
Just like a person 1000 years ago couldn't fathom the curiosity rover, smartphones, cars, etc.

 

[Taylor]

If we didn't have the dark ages where science was heresy then we would be 800 years ahead of now.

My PS3 is more powerful than a supercomputer from the 90s.

I don't think it's a matter of if we develop faster than light or faster than light relative to our starting location and end with a spacial shrinking technology, I think it's a matter of when.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I dont really want argue about life on other planets but here is my reasoning why I dont believe...

1. We dont know how life began here on Earth.

how are supposed to know for sure if we dont even know what happened in our own backyard?
How can we say alien life exists if we dont know how it began
every equation of the probabilty of life is flawed for this very reason alone...

how can say life is a given because of this

2. The drake equation is flawed

How can equation predict the ability that life forms? ...it doesnt...

high probabilty of earth like planets =/= life....i cant believe how this equation is so accepted in the scientific community let alone in beliefs of such things.
This is the best we can come up with...this is it...our readoning for other life existing...

Sorry i personally need more than this to be convinced

3. In experements scientist cant create life that has happened here on Earth.

in a controlled in environments ...different extremities....life doesnt create itself....

4. The science law....you cant create something from nothing. My main one

this is why the big bang theory is so flawed.....this is why the science theories behind life are just theories...

You can have 1000's of exact copies of our earth in the goldilocks region scattered through the universe..they all can have water air food etc..they can have our peferct sun. They can have our perfect moon...they can have Jupiter protecting them....everything needed to harbour life.
but that "something" that created life may never ever occur on any of those planets...whether you believe that "something" is a meteorite ..or the hand of a god...or just some fluke coincidence....we just dont know what it is but whatever it is it seems like a long shot.


this is by no means evidence....just my reasoning.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

If we didn't have the dark ages where science was heresy then we would be 800 years ahead of now.

My PS3 is more powerful than a supercomputer from the 90s.

I don't think it's a matter of if we develop faster than light or faster than light relative to our starting location and end with a spacial shrinking technology, I think it's a matter of when.

You do know if we do break the speed of light we are supposed to move in time .

Which then should show we have never broken the speed of light.

 

[CountryRace]

In regards to point one

My understanding is of the two most popular theory on how life started on earth at the present. One of them is it came here from space, ie. We are aliens.

On crystals. On asteroids.

The other being primordial soup theory.

So if this is true. And life on earth, started from space. Then there must of or must be aliens outside earth.

I suppose its possible also, that asteroid. Was the only thing where there was life in the universe. And got there or started, somehow. Seems unlikely. Maybe god was taking the piss.

I dont really want argue about life on other planets but here is my reasoning why I dont believe...

1. We dont know how life began here on Earth.

how are supposed to know for sure if we dont even know what happened in our own backyard?
How can we say alien life exists if we dont know how it began
every equation of the probabilty of life is flawed for this very reason alone...

how can say life is a given because of this

2. The drake equation is flawed?

How can equation predict the ability that life forms? ...it doesnt...

high probabilty of earth like planets =/= life....i cant believe how this equation is so accepted in the scientific community let alone in beliefs of such things.

3. In experements scientist cant create life that has happened here on Earth.

in a controlled in environments ...different extremities....life doesnt create itself....

4. The science law....you cant create something from nothing. My main one

this is why the big bang theory is so flawed.....this is why the science theories behind life are just theories...

You can have 1000's of exact copies of our earth in the goldilocks region scattered through the universe..they all can have water air food etc..they can have our peferct sun. They can have our perfect moon...they can have Jupiter protecting them....everything needed to harbour life.
but that "something" that created life may never ever occur on any of those planets...whether you believe that "something" is a meteorite ..or the hand of a god...or just some fluke coincidence....we just dont know what it is but whatever it is it seems like a long shot.


this is by no means evidence....just my reasoning.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

In regards to point one

My understanding is of the two most popular theory on how life started on earth at the present. One of them is it came here from space, ie. We are aliens.

On crystals. On asteroids.

The other being primordial soup theory.

So if this is true. And life on earth, started from space. Then there must of or must be aliens outside earth

Yes I have heard them all...

Which one do you believe is most probable to happen anywhere else in the universe?....thats if it is the reason why life exists.

 

[Taylor]

You do know if we do break the speed of light we are supposed to move in time .

Which then should show we have never broken the speed of light.

You don't have to break the speed of light to travel between the Earth and the sun in under 5 minutes.

You just need that space to be 5/8th as long.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

You don't have to break the speed of light to travel between the Earth and the sun in under 5 minutes.

You just need that space to be 5/8th as long.

Yeah but i have no real doubts about our abilty to travel to the distance of the sun

Since its only 8 mins of light speed away.

 

[CountryRace]

Yes I have heard them all...

Which one do you believe is most probable to happen anywhere else in the universe?....thats if it is the reason why life exists.

I think about it and I sort of think that a god-type must be real. Cause, IMHO, all the abiogenesis theories sound far fetched. But it seems we are indeed alive now. So it must have had a beginning somewhere along the lines. (Life)

But, in the 'god discussion' thread, I get called an idiot often. So better not ask me

 

[Taylor]

Yeah but i have no real doubts about our abilty to travel to the distance of the sun

Since its only 8 mins of light speed away.

Well if I can rustle up the technology to warp the spacetime between the stern of my spaceship and the target star system then it's really just a matter of moving forward. The observer on Earth would see the ship disappear and it would appear at the other end having moved the light years but not in time, at least not in the perspective of those on board. They would beat a signal from Earth by a significant time.

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

I think about it and I sort of think that a god-type must be real. Cause, IMHO, all the abiogenesis theories sound far fetched. But it seems we are indeed alive now. So it must have had a beginning somewhere along the lines. (Life)

But, in the 'god discussion' thread, I get called an idiot often. So better not ask me

Well i for 1 welcome any opinions....

Its how I learn about the subject

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

Well if I can rustle up the technology to warp the spacetime between the stern of my spaceship and the target star system then it's really just a matter of moving forward. The observer on Earth would see the ship disappear and it would appear at the other end having moved the light years but not in time, at least not in the perspective of those on board. They would beat a signal from Earth by a significant time.

Hmmmmmm

What you should of said is if we could develop the tech to fold the distance between point a and point b ...

 

[Taylor]

Well if I can rustle up the technology to warp the spacetime between the stern of my spaceship and the target star system then it's really just a matter of moving forward. The observer on Earth would see the ship disappear and it would appear at the other end having moved the light years but not in time, at least not in the perspective of those on board. They would beat a signal from Earth by a significant time.

Actually, if I can generate a gravity well ahead of the ship in that warped space then I don't even need a propulsion system, the ship will literally fall into the well and carry through the warped space.

 

[CountryRace]

I dont really want argue about life on other planets but here is my reasoning why I dont believe...

1. We dont know how life began here on Earth.

how are supposed to know for sure if we dont even know what happened in our own backyard?
How can we say alien life exists if we dont know how it began
every equation of the probabilty of life is flawed for this very reason alone...

how can say life is a given because of this

2. The drake equation is flawed

How can equation predict the ability that life forms? ...it doesnt...

high probabilty of earth like planets =/= life....i cant believe how this equation is so accepted in the scientific community let alone in beliefs of such things.
This is the best we can come up with...this is it...our readoning for other life existing...

Sorry i personally need more than this to be convinced

3. In experements scientist cant create life that has happened here on Earth.

in a controlled in environments ...different extremities....life doesnt create itself....

4. The science law....you cant create something from nothing. My main one

this is why the big bang theory is so flawed.....this is why the science theories behind life are just theories...

You can have 1000's of exact copies of our earth in the goldilocks region scattered through the universe..they all can have water air food etc..they can have our peferct sun. They can have our perfect moon...they can have Jupiter protecting them....everything needed to harbour life.
but that "something" that created life may never ever occur on any of those planets...whether you believe that "something" is a meteorite ..or the hand of a god...or just some fluke coincidence....we just dont know what it is but whatever it is it seems like a long shot.


this is by no means evidence....just my reasoning.

In regards t0 2:

Why, would you think it's more likely stats wise, that life is unique to earth?

3:

Science not being able to create life doesn't mean anything

Life does create itself according to the leading abiogenesis theory

We have found life in places we didn't think it was possible: nuclear power stations that explode, deadsea vents, very high up in sky/space etc

4:

Remember science laws = Big Bang

= nothing, bang, everything

Agreed its a strange theory. What's your alternative

Maybe life on another planet didnt get something to start but something else

 

[BIG MATTY WHITE]

In regards t0 2:

Why, would you think it's more likely stats wise, that life is unique to earth?

3:

Science not being able to create life doesn't mean anything

Life does create itself according to the leading abiogenesis theory

We have found life in places we didn't think it was possible: nuclear power stations that explode, deadsea vents, very high up in sky/space etc

4:

Remember science laws = Big Bang

= nothing, bang, everything

Agreed its a strange theory. What's your alternative

Maybe life on another planet didnt get something to start but something else

2. I have no idea...i honestly dont know...but if thats the best we have I need to have more meat on the bone before I start entertaining the idea we are not unique...which brings me back to looking at our own backyard it brings me to another question what makes us so unique on Earth....? Out of the billions of species here on Earth why are we the only ones who have developed to a level of conciousnous that dwarfs the next smartest species.

But if your looking for an alternative answer... is a book thats lasted 2000 years with ability to control billions of people anymore of statistical evidence that god created the Earth

3. As i said its not evidence just reasoning.. If science doesnt grasp the idea of how life is formed ....how can it even begin to fathom life on other planets....how does it even begin to make equations to the probability of life...do I start at A skip B to get to C.....its faith not science ...if you have that faith i wont argue.

4. I have no alternative which is why i keep searching for answers...and question everything put in front of me...

but from all the theories they all require an ounce of luck ...an ounce of magic...or more popular a touch of god

 

[CountryRace]

Something is not faith, just cause science doesn't understand it. Ie. life started somehow. Fact, not faith.