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sr36

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Interesting.

Even Alan Jones has recently had a rant saying that the right in Australia is f’ed. Apart from #scotyfrommarketing personal popularity (based on dodgy as fu** online polls), the liberals face decimation across Australia.

Yet the left is being abandoned?

Things that make you go hmmmm.

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Trump and Brexit have screwed the conservatives. They've run anti-establishment campaigns. But the conservatives are the ******* establishment - that's why they're called conservatives - becasue they don't want things to change - they want the structures that they benefit that protect their wealth to remain. That side of politics has just become a shambolic mess, who have no idea what they stand for anymore. It's become a hodge podge of discordant, contradictory ideas.
 

ExcitementMachine

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Interesting.

Even Alan Jones has recently had a rant saying that the right in Australia is f’ed. Apart from #scotyfrommarketing personal popularity (based on dodgy as fu** online polls), the liberals face decimation across Australia.

Yet the left is being abandoned?

Things that make you go hmmmm.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
How many federal elections have 'the left' won since Howard came into power?
 

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ExcitementMachine

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Too true. You might accept losing to Howard/Costello .... but Morrison/Dutton?? Not real flash.
And the guy i quoted who's too scared to engage with me thinks australias never been more 'egalitarian'.

Its 7 coalition to 2 alp by the way, the rich getting richer the poor getting poorer.

We did say sorry in 2007 though.
 

Black_White

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Yeah shows you how much a threat he is. If they take out the head the rest will scatter. Is what theyre hoping. Trump will have surely got his sh*t squared away, when youve got that sort of money, you can buy the best squirrelers. They all do it, Trump even bragged that he did, its legal.

Theyll keep this sh*t up, i think theres some land he donated too to avoid tax that theyre looking into as well.

Its just the estab, the institutions havent gone after any of their own. The Clinton Foundation had billions, then when HRC wasnt POTUS funny how it dried up? Wikileaks even found $1m from Qatar in the Foundation. It sat there for over a year, hadnt been recorded by Foundation. They said, "clerical error thanks"

Legally though US business, individuals, orgs etc arent allowed to take money from countries on US terror list.
Why do you think Trump was desperate to get his people into the Supreme Court?
His belief was that they would back him to the hilt.
The reality appears that they have their hands on the knife and it’s buried in his back to the hilt.
Once he got his people onto the bench he thought he didn’t need to do any squirrelling. But......
 

Markfs

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How many federal elections have 'the left' won since Howard came into power?
I think the Left won about all of them except Howard was the leftie in charge.... with middle class welfare and pumped up pensions for the oldies and fabulous tax breaks for the oldies doing super.... throwing money at the electorate left right and centre while the mining boom was bringing in the dollars..

just because howard was a "fuddy duddy stay at home until you're 40 with mum and then get a wife to take over the maternal duties" kind of guy, didnt make him right. He was basically in the Menzies mold.

And the last time the Left was in charge in Australia was when Jim Cairns took over the treasury and reigned with Junie Morosi... Kevin rudd left? Hawkie? Keating? The last two wound back the whole protectionist system and put tens of thousands out of work in suburbs close to the city in melb and syd...
 

Maggie5

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This thread is going to last longer than the bring back malthouse / dump bucks thread... so I think the main criteria should be that it's readable - either informative or entertaining.
I can close it if others want to.

about your question, the tradition left right thing doesn't seem to operate anymore..or perhaps it's better to say that it doesn't explain much these days. One example is the rep/democrat demographics where the middle class workers have left the democrats (at least many have) and many rich professionals have left the republicans. We've seen it here too with the professional lawyer types joining Labor and the battlers joining the Liberals... There's the mix of economic and social values on each side with social conservatives not just with the traditional right. Then you have unions in Labor who are dead set against the conservation/non-fossil wing of that party.

Invariably when people are talking left and right wing they are talking about the extremes of both parties, which ironically have a lot in common as a lot are anarchists. But the name calling has become meaningless
Exactly my point. I can truly say with my friends/associates none are on the so called extreme end in fact the line between opposite side of politics is often blurred as we can criticise some politicians and policies equally. I don't get the extreme end of politics at all.people loosing their cool and getting nasty.

The only consistent political line I am/have taken is my extreme dislike for all things The Loser (aka Donald Drumpf).
 

ExcitementMachine

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I can close it if others want to.


Exactly my point. I can truly say with my friends/associates none are on the so called extreme end in fact the line between opposite side of politics is often blurred as we can criticise some politicians and policies equally. I don't get the extreme end of politics at all.people loosing their cool and getting nasty.

The only consistent political line I am/have taken is my extreme dislike for all things The Loser (aka Donald Drumpf).
But your point is do as I say not as I do.
You are irked by left wing labels. But, ive seen you like and admire right wing labels.

You've never voted for the coalition or not for a long time, and tend to almost never like content from posters considered right. You vote for the alp/greens and will go in to bat for 'likeminded' posters.

If you are not left, you definitely identity with it.
 

Maggie5

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But your point is do as I say not as I do.
You are irked by left wing labels. But, ive seen you like and admire right wing labels.

You've never voted for the coalition or not for a long time, and tend to almost never like content from posters considered right. You vote for the alp/greens and will go in to bat for 'likeminded' posters.

If you are not left, you definitely identity with it.
How can you post this given that you are unable to tell me what 'left means'?:D
 

ExcitementMachine

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How can you post this given that you are unable to tell me what 'left means'?:D
Your definitely not a traditional lefty, more a modern day woke lefty, asking for a long winded philosophical post of my interpretation of what the left means when you know ive stated many times that I lead a busy life and work 50 hour plus weeks and dont have the privilege for such engagement.

Its interesting that the more unhinged modern day leftists have not seen this as an intersectional, and have not backed off, but rather scoured me with labels such as rwnj, moron, etc, and I dont nean you 8j that instance maggie.

Which actually leads to another interesting discussion as to why left wing governments may struggle to gain power in western nations and why traditional left wing voters have left in droves.
 

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Maggie5

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Your definitely not a traditional lefty, more a modern day woke lefty, asking for a long winded philosophical post of my interpretation of what the left means when you know ive states many times that I lead a busy life and work 50 hour plus weeks and dont have the privilege for such engagement.

Its interesting that the more unhinged modern day leftists have not seen this as an intersectional, and have not backed off, but rather scoured me qith labels such as rwnj, moron, etc.

Which actually leads to another interesting discussion as to why left wing governments may struggle to gain power in western nations.
That is not what I asking at all and yes I know you work long hours (said so many, many times), maybe if you do have a reply, just post when you have had time to think instead of the rest of your post.
 

ExcitementMachine

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I think the Left won about all of them except Howard was the leftie in charge.... with middle class welfare and pumped up pensions for the oldies and fabulous tax breaks for the oldies doing super.... throwing money at the electorate left right and centre while the mining boom was bringing in the dollars..

just because howard was a "fuddy duddy stay at home until you're 40 with mum and then get a wife to take over the maternal duties" kind of guy, didnt make him right. He was basically in the Menzies mold.

And the last time the Left was in charge in Australia was when Jim Cairns took over the treasury and reigned with Junie Morosi... Kevin rudd left? Hawkie? Keating? The last two wound back the whole protectionist system and put tens of thousands out of work in suburbs close to the city in melb and syd...
Sorry but Howard a lefty is such bullshit.

Ive lived and breathed how right coalition governments have been and it hasnt been nice.
 

ExcitementMachine

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That is not what I asking at all and yes I know you work long hours (said so many, many times), maybe if you do have a reply, just post when you have had time to think instead of the rest of your post.
But to be fair, to answer your question would take a thesis.

I dont have time for that but I think we have a fair idea as to what the left is certainly in relation to likeminded posters in this thread.

I know theres more diversity out there and yes political parties in Australia usually offer a much broader church.

I suspect those on the left in this thread swing closer to greens if not vote green.
 

Markfs

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But your point is do as I say not as I do.
You are irked by left wing labels. But, ive seen you like and admire right wing labels.

You've never voted for the coalition or not for a long time, and tend to almost never like content from posters considered right. You vote for the alp/greens and will go in to bat for 'likeminded' posters.

If you are not left, you definitely identity with it.
That line doesnt compute, excitable boy....
 

THE SALT

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Interesting.

Even Alan Jones has recently had a rant saying that the right in Australia is f’ed. Apart from #scotyfrommarketing personal popularity (based on dodgy as fu** online polls), the liberals face decimation across Australia.

Yet the left is being abandoned?

Things that make you go hmmmm.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
Ahh i saw the headline on youtube, didnt watch. Yeah good, piece of sh*t.

Not a lot of confidence in Albo but this IPA/Lib Nats worst government ever 👎👎
 

sr36

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Sheeple (of "sheep" and "people") highlights the passive herd behavior of people easily controlled by a governing power or market fads which likens them to sheep, a herd animal that is "easily" led about. The term is used to describe those who voluntarily acquiesce to a suggestion without any significant critical analysis or research.
That doesn't make sense. I think you must have it wrong. Conspiracy theorists don't call themselves sheeple. They call those who use critical analysis and research sheeple.
 

JB1975

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What difference does it make if i post off topic briefly? You dont read what i post anyway, so youre just powertripping.

Hypocritical? If its about Trump, why the hell do you spend so much time talking about me?

You go off topic all the time. Lazy 👎

The reason some additional topic is required to frame and triangulate (verifiable truth), a necessary paradign shift when communicating with Dogmatic Sheeple, whose belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty.

In the pejorative sense, dogma refers to enforced decisions, such as those of aggressive political interests or authorities. More generally, it is applied to some strong belief which its adherents are not willing to discuss rationally.

Sheeple (of "sheep" and "people") highlights the passive herd behavior of people easily controlled by a governing power or market fads which likens them to sheep, a herd animal that is "easily" led about. The term is used to describe those who voluntarily acquiesce to a suggestion without any significant critical analysis or research. Merriam-Webster defines the term as "people who are docile, compliant, or easily influenced: people likened to sheep".

Clearly born out of concern.🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑

I do trust through provision of quality information, strong & sound premises, and framing of alternative debate. I saw this thread and determined by the rot being dribbled that Magpie Supporters deserve to be exposed to significantly superior debate, over the epistemic bubble of negative consequentialism being propergated in this "About Trump" echo chamber.

The information I present is far more attractive and ethical approach because it provides clear and practical guidance – at least in situations where outcomes are easy to predict (Thats your cue to visit the UN, see Agenda 2030, Great Reset on their own website) to maximise benefit for the largest number of people, we must set aside our personal biases and self-interest to benefit others. The ends justifies the means. Side by Side.

What is an Epistemic Bubble & Eco Chamber????

An epistemic bubble is an informational network in which important sources have been excluded by omission, perhaps unintentionally. It is an impaired epistemic framework which lacks strong connectivity. Members within epistemic bubbles are unaware of significant information and reasoning.

On the other hand, an echo chamber is an epistemic construct in which voices are actively excluded and discredited. It does not suffer from a lack in connectivity; rather it depends on a manipulation of trust by methodically discrediting all outside sources.

According to research conducted by the University of Pennsylvania, members of echo chambers become dependent on the sources within the chamber and highly resistant to any external sources.

An important distinction exists in the strength of the respective epistemic structures. Epistemic bubbles are not particularly robust. Relevant information has merely been left out, not discredited. One can ‘pop’ an epistemic bubble by exposing a member to the information and sources that they have been missing.

Echo chambers, however, are incredibly strong. By creating pre-emptive distrust between members and non-members, insiders will be insulated from the validity of counter-evidence and will continue to reinforce the chamber in the form of a closed loop.

Outside voices are heard, but dismissed.


As such, the two concepts are fundamentally distinct and cannot be utilized interchangeably. However, one must note that this distinction is conceptual in nature, and an epistemic community can exercise multiple methods of exclusion to varying extents.




Baron Munchausen pulls himself out of a mire by his own hair.

In epistemology, the Münchhausen trilemma is a thought experiment used to demonstrate the impossibility of proving any truth, even in the fields of logic and mathematics. If it is asked how any given proposition is known to be true, proof may be provided. Yet that same question can be asked of the proof, and any subsequent proof. The Münchhausen trilemma is that there are only three options when providing further proof in response to further questioning:
  • The circular argument, in which the proof of some proposition is supported only by that proposition

  • The regressive argument, in which each proof requires a further proof, ad infinitum

  • The dogmatic argument, which rests on accepted precepts which are merely asserted rather than defended
The trilemma, then, is the decision among the three equally unsatisfying options.

The name Münchhausen-Trilemma was coined by the German philosopher Hans Albert in 1968 in reference to a trilemma of "dogmatism versus infinite regress versus psychologism" used by Karl Popper. It is a reference to the problem of "bootstrapping", based on the story of Baron Munchausen (in German, "Münchhausen") pulling himself and the horse on which he was sitting out of a mire by his own hair.

Like Munchausen, who cannot make progress because he has no solid ground to stand on, any purported justification of all knowledge must fail, because it must start from a position of no knowledge, and therefore cannot make progress. It must either start with some knowledge, as with dogmatism, not start at all, as with infinite regress, or be a circular argument, justified only by itself and have no solid foundation, much like Munchausen is only pulling on himself rather than some external handhold.


Infinite Regress (Closed Loop)

In the mode deriving from infinite regress, we say that what is brought forward as a source of conviction for the matter proposed itself needs another such source, which itself needs another, and so ad infinitum, so that we have no point from which to begin to establish anything, and suspension of judgement follows.

We have the mode from hypothesis when the Dogmatists, being thrown back ad infinitum, begin from something which they do not establish but claim to assume simply and without proof in virtue of a concession.

Assuming that knowledge is justified true belief, then:
  1. Suppose that P is some piece of knowledge. Then P is a justified true belief.
  2. The only thing that can justify P is another statement – let's call it P1; so P1 justifies P.
  3. But if P1 is to be a satisfactory justification for P, then we must know that P1.
  4. But for P1 to be known, it must also be a justified true belief.
  5. That justification will be another statement - let's call it P2; so P2 justifies P1.
  6. But if P2 is to be a satisfactory justification for P1, then we must know that P2 is true
  7. But for P2 to count as knowledge, it must itself be a justified true belief.
  8. That justification will in turn be another statement - let's call it P3; so P3 justifies P2.
  9. and so on, ad infinitum.


Socrates established the fact that one cannot depend upon those in "authority" to have sound knowledge and insight. He demonstrated that persons may have power and high position and yet be deeply confused and irrational. Socrates maintained that for an individual to have a good life or to have one that is worth living, he must be a critical questioner and possess an interrogative soul. He established the importance of asking deep questions that probe profoundly into thinking before we accept ideas as worthy of belief.

Socrates established the importance of "seeking evidence, closely examining reasoning and assumptions, analyzing basic concepts, and tracing out implications not only of what is said but of what is done as well". His method of questioning is now known as "Socratic questioning" and is the best known critical thinking teaching strategy.

In his mode of questioning, Socrates highlighted the need for thinking for clarity and logical consistency. He asked people questions to reveal their irrational thinking or lack of reliable knowledge. Socrates demonstrated that having authority does not ensure accurate knowledge. He established the method of questioning beliefs, closely inspecting assumptions and relying on evidence and sound rationale. Plato recorded Socrates' teachings and carried on the tradition of critical thinking. Aristotle and subsequent Greek skeptics refined Socrates' teachings, using systematic thinking and asking questions to ascertain the true nature of reality beyond the way things appear from a glance.

The U.S. National Council for Excellence in Critical Thinking defines critical thinking as the "intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.



Give it a crack!
Some might call your posts self-indulgent. I know I've said it a few times, scrolling down your walls of verbiage.

But it is a non-violent use of time, and I think that you should be commended for that.

And yet I ask that you spare a thought for the more time-poor among us, not least the industrious Excitement Machine, who would be serving up some ripe f****** wisdom if it wasn't for the fact that he's one of the few in this thread working a full-time job.
 

THE SALT

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Interesting.

Even Alan Jones has recently had a rant saying that the right in Australia is f’ed. Apart from #scotyfrommarketing personal popularity (based on dodgy as fu** online polls), the liberals face decimation across Australia.

Yet the left is being abandoned?

Things that make you go hmmmm.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
Labor used to be about jobs.

The republican party is changing under Trump, now theyre the middleclass working class/jobs party. Still some leacherous snouts but theres been huge shift.

I didnt mind Keystone Pipe getting axed, not that the decision effects me but if that really was built over largest fresh water acquifier in US, cant have that, fresh water crisis is a legit global crisis.

Feel bad for my mate, day 1, 11000 jobs axed in oil industry, he looking for new gig...he was ffrfkkn so proud of that job aye.

Frrkn never the politicians or hollywood celebs that lose their jobs when this sh*t goes down.

See the covid relief bill Biden wants to pass, has Bernie & AOC minimum living wage $15 bill in there. Apparenttly is gonna decimate these business struggling from covid. Estimated 1.4mill jobs will be lost as a result.

See thing is it sounds like good idea right? The US has some of best purchasing power, Bern was talking about Scandanavian socialist countries again. They get higher wages but pay huge tax. Apparently US has 55% to 70% on some things better purchasing power. Wages low but so is cost of living.

The big corps Maccas etc can afford, but the small medium gonna put em on their ass.

Hows Amazon? They agreed to $15 ph, but then removed their stock options, benefits they had, they will be worse off.
Also oldmate Bezos is trying to stop mail in voting for Amazon Union election haha why? Security fraud concerns haha


Think new Florida Governor Ron Desantis is gonna be a star for the GOP, no nonsense approach with media and moving to make election systems far more secure/transparent.

https://www.wlrn.org/local-news/2021-02-23/governor-desantis-pushes-for-florida-election-changes
 

THE SALT

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Leopold 3224
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Some might call your posts self-indulgent. I know I've said it a few times, scrolling down your walls of verbiage.

But it is a non-violent use of time, and I think that you should be commended for that.

And yet I ask that you spare a thought for the more time-poor among us, not least the industrious Excitement Machine, who would be serving up some ripe f****** wisdom if it wasn't for the fact that he's one of the few in this thread working a full-time job.
Takes awhile typing with my xbox controller, even when some cut and paste, again i jumped on to read pre season for supercoach but...got destracted again 👍
 

THE SALT

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Leopold 3224
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Tucker is wasted. He should be running the country or texas at least. Why does a system waste such an important resource by putting him a fox studio? We need to dig up more gas and oil in texas and go back to using the tried and true methods of generating electricty...and providing the same jobs ...this will empty the parks of the homeless. We should spend more of these utilities and increase the tax cuts to stimulate investment. Tucker knows what to do.
[/QUOTE]


How long you been living off the grid...?
 

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