All Australian 2000-09 vs 2010-present Hindsight Cup

[PhatBoy]

Just so we're clear I'm guessing the answer is Scarlett wasn't on Buddy in the following games:

Round 17 2008
Round 1 2009
Round 17 2009
Round 15 2010
Round 12 2011
QF 2011

But he was in all the other games they played?

I honestly don’t know that he actually played on him that much at all. Tom Lonergan usually got the job on him and usually beat him.

At any rate, the only side he’s fared worse against in goal terms is Hawthorn themselves, and the difference is about 0.2 goals per game. Between Scarlett and Lonergan they must have done something right

 

[big_e]

Don't take any of it too seriously, it's just some random journalism student who was 8 years old in 2000 and his mates. He wouldn't even remember the majority of the careers of half the players.

Just a heads-up to any other journalism students out there (and I am an ex-journalist, by the way).

The way to get a gig in the footy media isn't to write pointless opinion pieces like this, it's to get out there and be a ******* reporter. Get in touch with a newsroom and volunteer to give them a VFL report each week, go out and watch the game in person, interview the players and coaches before and after the game. Do community radio.

Newsrooms are under-resourced but they need content, real content not this pub argument dressed up as something useful.

 

[PhatBoy]

Since he's been captain Geelong are 2w 8l in finals, should be 1w 9l thanks to Isaac Smith missing a goal. His past two AA selections were also extremely dodgy, the AA threads went into meltdown both times his name was called out.

Actually we are 3-8 if you want to get into semantics.

If you keep finishing top 4, you will keep playing top 4 opponents in week one, bottom 4 opponents in week 2, and top 4 opponents in week three if you’ve won.

If we were 3-8 because we continually kept finishing 1-4 and then going out in straight sets, it would be a knock on everyone from the captain down. We don’t, though. That’s happened once.
Last year we lost to the two grand finalists.
The year before we lost one, and it was to the runners up. 2013 we lost to the two grand finalists. 2014 was the exception, where we went out in straight sets.

 

[Bardo State]

This looks like a really odd way of looking at things. Forwards tend to be bigger names, so they'll win out.

Roughead over Fletcher and Betts over Hodge are just weird choices.

Also putting Dal Santo in the modern team despite winning most of his awards pre 2010 despite the rules. Spelling Jarryd Roughead's name wrong (Jarrod).

There's no reasoning or explanation as to the selections, which might have made the thing worthwhile. How would a forwardline of Lloyd, Pavlich and Brown fared against Rance, McGovern and Taylor?

It's a pretty amateurish piece.

 

[Captain_Bender]

Luke Hodge > Joel Selwood as captain

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Actually we are 3-8 if you want to get into semantics.

If you keep finishing top 4, you will keep playing top 4 opponents in week one, bottom 4 opponents in week 2, and top 4 opponents in week three if you’ve won.

If we were 3-8 because we continually kept finishing 1-4 and then going out in straight sets, it would be a knock on everyone from the captain down. We don’t, though. That’s happened once.
Last year we lost to the two grand finalists.
The year before we lost one, and it was to the runners up. 2013 we lost to the two grand finalists. 2014 was the exception, where we went out in straight sets.

3 and 8 is bloody disgraceful, how on earth can the captain of the decade have a 27% win record (should be 18%) in finals. All those hawthorn chokes (and almost chokes), losing to North and expecting to win vs Freo. Selwood is a fierce competitor but also a sore loser ala when he refused to shake Pendleburys hand when Pendles took him to the cleaners.

 

[Blackas87]

Melbourne the only club without a player in either team. Geez we've been good this millennium.

 

[Acinath]

Luke Hodge (2005,2008,2010) vs Eddie Betts (2015-2017) – Betts 2–1

This is the best

 

[Ron The Bear]

Selwood's finals record as captain is not deplorable.

It's actually the worst record of any player who's been captain in more than eight finals. Not that I think there's anything wrong with his leadership.

 

[PhatBoy]

3 and 8 is bloody disgraceful, how on earth can the captain of the decade have a 27% win record (should be 18%) in finals. All those hawthorn chokes (and almost chokes), losing to North and expecting to win vs Freo. Selwood is a fierce competitor but also a sore loser ala when he refused to shake Pendleburys hand when Pendles took him to the cleaners.

Reality is in that period we just haven’t been that good. We’ve been premiership quality in one of those years - 2013. And if Travis Varcoe kicked straight we probably make the grand final.

All the Hawthorn chokes - what does that even mean? We are 1-2 against the side who won 3 straight flags. Unsurprisingly the two defeats were in their premiership years. In fact if you want to go deep into it , in 2013 Hawthorn did everything the could to choke - they had a third more scoring shots than us and still won by less than a kick. The north game was a disgrace, and the 2012 loss to Freo - though we were never going to win anything that year anyway. The rest have all been against sides who had every right to think they could beat us.

 

[Acinath]

3 and 8 is bloody disgraceful, how on earth can the captain of the decade have a 27% win record (should be 18%) in finals. All those hawthorn chokes (and almost chokes), losing to North and expecting to win vs Freo

I don't buy this s**t, yeah Joel is 3-11 as captain, no hiding from that. He's the sort of captain who leads from the front, and guys generally follow.

Out of those 11 games he's captained in finals, he's been named in the best for 8 and the 3 he wasn't named in the best for were:
Freo 2012 (Lost)
Richmond 2018 (Lost, but he was coming back from a month out with an ankle injury)
Sydney 2018 (Won convincingly, and didn't have to do much - returned to the best the next week in a loss to Adelaide)

Geelong's final issues are not on Selwood.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don't buy this s**t, yeah Joel is 3-11 as captain, no hiding from that. He's the sort of captain who leads from the front, and guys generally follow.

Out of those 11 games he's captained in finals, he's been named in the best for 8 and the 3 he wasn't named in the best for were:
Freo 2012 (Lost)
Richmond 2018 (Lost, but he was coming back from a month out with an ankle injury)
Sydney 2018 (Won convincingly, and didn't have to do much - returned to the best the next week in a loss to Adelaide)

Geelong's final issues are not on Selwood.

Came back to post exactly this. He’s not a particularly prolific ball winner and in 4 of the 8 defeats he has had 30+ (in the last two PF defeats he’s had 38 and 39) and in another defeat he had 28. As you point out in the Richmond loss last year he was first game back from a month on the pine (still managed 5 tackles, 6 clearances, and two thirds of his touches were contested).

In the loss to North he had 24, 16 contested, 8 tackles and 11 clearances.

Seriously, is that sort of defeat somehow because of his leadership?

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Luke Hodge (2005,2008,2010) vs Eddie Betts (2015-2017) – Betts 2–1

This is the best

Both overrated footballers. Betts has excelled at his position more than Hodge has at his though.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

I don't buy this s**t, yeah Joel is 3-11 as captain, no hiding from that. He's the sort of captain who leads from the front, and guys generally follow.

Out of those 11 games he's captained in finals, he's been named in the best for 8 and the 3 he wasn't named in the best for were:
Freo 2012 (Lost)
Richmond 2018 (Lost, but he was coming back from a month out with an ankle injury)
Sydney 2018 (Won convincingly, and didn't have to do much - returned to the best the next week in a loss to Adelaide)

Geelong's final issues are not on Selwood.

I agree they are not all on Selwood (e.g. on the run rebuild with average picks, Chris Scott playing Danger forward in the prelim last year), but he has to take some responsibility especially for that piss weak Freo game on their home turf. That was Geelongs to lose and clearly the players went into the first quarter thinking it was going to be a cakewalk, a sign of poor leadership.

Again he is a sore loser and is the 8th best midfielder in that team. 3 and 8 still stands regardless. Give me Rance over 3-8 Selwood.

 

[PhatBoy]

I agree they are not all on Selwood (e.g. on the run rebuild with average picks, Chris Scott playing Danger forward in the prelim last year), but he has to take some responsibility especially for that piss weak Freo game on their home turf. That was Geelongs to lose and clearly the players went into the first quarter thinking it was going to be a cakewalk, a sign of poor leadership.

Again he is a sore loser and is the 8th best midfielder in that team. 3 and 8 still stands regardless. Give me Rance over 3-8 Selwood.

Yeah like all players in their second final as a captain, I’m sure it will remain a particular source of disappointment for him that he could only manage 20-odd touches, 13 of them contested, 6 1%ers (his next best that year was 3), 5 clearances, 5 inside 50s, 4 tackles.

The work of someone not having a go and destined to haunt his legacy.

Oh, and how did they ‘clearly go into the first quarter thinking it would be a cakewalk’?

Do you base that on the fact that we led at quarter time? The fact that we were never behind by more than a kick or so until the final stages? The equal amount of scoring shots for the game?

If I didn’t know better I’d almost think we expected a close game and got it.

 

[Acinath]

I agree they are not all on Selwood (e.g. on the run rebuild with average picks, Chris Scott playing Danger forward in the prelim last year), but he has to take some responsibility especially for that piss weak Freo game on their home turf. That was Geelongs to lose and clearly the players went into the first quarter thinking it was going to be a cakewalk, a sign of poor leadership.

Again he is a sore loser and is the 8th best midfielder in that team. 3 and 8 still stands regardless. Give me Rance over 3-8 Selwood.

Plenty of other leaders quite capable on that 2012 team that didn't stand up against Fremantle when they could of

Selwood - 28 disposals (13 contested), 78% DE, 9 clearances
Bartel - 26 disposals @ 61% DE (9 clangers)
Kelly - 15 disposal @ 53% DE
Chapman - 20 disposals @ 55% DE
Scarlett - 10 disposals @ 30% DE
Hawkins - 9 disposals @ 55% DE, kicked 0.2

That's 6 of their most senior players at the time, yet only Selwood's leadership gets questioned with that one?

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Don't take any of it too seriously, it's just some random journalism student who was 8 years old in 2000 and his mates. He wouldn't even remember the majority of the careers of half the players.

The omissions of Chad Fletcher and Adam McPhee were telling. Clearly knows nothing.

 

[PhatBoy]

Plenty of other leaders quite capable on that 2012 team that didn't stand up against Fremantle when they could of

Selwood - 28 disposals (13 contested), 78% DE, 9 clearances
Bartel - 26 disposals @ 61% DE (9 clangers)
Kelly - 15 disposal @ 53% DE
Chapman - 20 disposals @ 55% DE
Scarlett - 10 disposals @ 30% DE
Hawkins - 9 disposals @ 55% DE, kicked 0.2

That's 6 of their most senior players at the time, yet only Selwood's leadership gets questioned with that one?

He didn’t even pick the right match. The KP match was in 2013 and it was game on until Stephen Hill kicked a goal with 8 minutes to play to take the margin beyond 9 points.

2012 was at the MCG, his first game as captain, we got ambushed and as you rightly point out, he was ridiculously better than the rest of the guys on his team.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

Plenty of other leaders quite capable on that 2012 team that didn't stand up against Fremantle when they could of

Selwood - 28 disposals (13 contested), 78% DE, 9 clearances
Bartel - 26 disposals @ 61% DE (9 clangers)
Kelly - 15 disposal @ 53% DE
Chapman - 20 disposals @ 55% DE
Scarlett - 10 disposals @ 30% DE
Hawkins - 9 disposals @ 55% DE, kicked 0.2

That's 6 of their most senior players at the time, yet only Selwood's leadership gets questioned with that one?

They were not mentally prepared enough against Fremantle on their home deck and that falls on the coach and captain.

And forget the other players, I am just holding the position of captain of the decade to very high standard and I dont want someone who has captained 3 wins from eleven games.

 

[PhatBoy]

They were not mentally prepared enough against Fremantle on their home deck and that falls on the coach and captain.

And forget the other players, I am just holding the position of captain of the decade to very high standard and I dont want someone who has captained 3 wins from 8 losses in finals

So one match, his first finals match as captain, in which he was probably CLEARLY our best player, at 24 years old, somehow makes him garbage because he’s supposed to have given some amazing pre-game speech that magically makes everyone play better.



Ok.

Convenient that you’ve neglected to mention that on the back of Selwood’s game we came back from 46-1 down to get within 3 goals with about 7 minutes to play.

 

[Jcpdragonx]

So one match, his first finals match as captain, in which he was probably CLEARLY our best player, at 24 years old, somehow makes him garbage because he’s supposed to have given some amazing pre-game speech that magically makes everyone play better.



Ok.

Convenient that you’ve neglected to mention that on the back of Selwood’s game we came back from 46-1 down to get within 3 goals with about 7 minutes to play.

What does probably clearly mean?

I'm sorry I can't give you these honorable losses.

 

[PhatBoy]

What does probably clearly mean?

I'm sorry I can't give you these honorable losses.

You’re judging one player on the performances of 22 and disregarding the fact that, in a sport where the captain has virtually no tactical input, he’s been about as inspirational as he can possibly be in basically all those performances. It is like saying that, imagining for a moment that a cricket captain doesn’t pull the strings onfield and a coach does, Steve Smith is to blame for Aus losing in India because his centuries didn’t result in a series win.

I could pretty much s**t on my screen and it would make more sense, even allowing for the contradictory adjectives I posted a moment ago.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

00-09 has 5 key forwards, two time AA Brown shouldn't be in the time. I'd take Gehrig or Fevola over him anyway. Would drop him and put 8 time AA Ricciuto on the flank, leaving a spot on the bench.

For 10-19, I'd give the captaincy to Rance. If Mitchell was a premiership captain after 2010 then I'd give it to him. Selwoods finals record as captain is deplorable.

Surely Goddard gets a spot over Birchall at HB, not even close there.

Josh P Kennedy over Dal Santo. Dal was better pre 2010, deserves a bench spot in the 00-09 team.

Brown out. Either Pavlich or Tredrea to CHF and Paul Chapman to the flank.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

• Mark Ricciuto (2004,2005) Scott Pendlebury (2010–14) – Pendlebury 2–1

Argument on whether I think Roo is better or not aside, he was AA in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005. and captain in 2004 and 2005

Also selwood shouldnt be captain if he is on the bench

Bruce Montieth was a premiership captain from the bench.

It's not 1980 anymore where you might get a quarter if you started on the bench. These days you can be on the ground inside the first minute.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Just a heads-up to any other journalism students out there (and I am an ex-journalist, by the way).

The way to get a gig in the footy media isn't to write pointless opinion pieces like this, it's to get out there and be a ******* reporter. Get in touch with a newsroom and volunteer to give them a VFL report each week, go out and watch the game in person, interview the players and coaches before and after the game. Do community radio.

Newsrooms are under-resourced but they need content, real content not this pub argument dressed up as something useful.

It’s all about clicks. Absolutely everything in media now is about clicks.

About 3 people will click on a VFL match report.