All Australian - 40 man squad on page 89

[Chewy]

Thats solid work right there Chewy You;re on fire, making s**t up as u go along hoping noone will notice.

If Cyril can make FP without playing there, that means Kieran Jack would be an absolute monty to make FP...u bewdy

Can i assume you'll be plugging K Jack for a FP slot ahead of Cyril ? If not... whynot ? Goals kicked arnt important for a FP are they ?

Jokes and sarcasm aside, please tell me (in English) how is it that you think Milne is worth a spot in the AA team when his own coaches think half of the St Kilda team had a better season


I reckon it's a bit misleading anyway to label Milne and Betts as forward pockets. It implies they play alongside a big strong-marking full forward who kicks all the goals and they feed off the crumbs.

It simply isn't the case. Both Milney and Betts are their teams' de-facto full forwards. They get a lot of the forward play directed their way. That's why they always kick 50 goals a season. The Saints have Nick Riewoldt as their hit up CHF. Carlton have Jarrad Waite as their CHF (when fit) or a stop gap like Hampson or Kreuzer. Both teams clear it out in front of goal and rely heavily on their little fellas to kick their score.

West Coast were the same when they were on the bottom of the ladder and their main scoring threat was Mark LeCras. (with Q-stick hitting up to the 50m arc and Kennedy still developing)

Compare those teams to Hawthorn goalkickers in 2012 (Rds 1-23)

Buddy Franklin - 59 goals
Jarryd Roughead - 40 goals
Luke Breust - 39 goals
Cyril Rioli - 35 goals
Jack Gunstan - 33 goals
Jordan Lewis - 27 goals
Paul Puopolo - 23 goals
David Hale - 20 goals

Do you seriously think if Hawthorn didn't have all these scoring options and Cyril Rioli was forced to play as a de-facto full forward that he wouldn't kick also kick 50-60 goals a season just like Milney or Betts?

 

[Bollox]

So you've done a complete backflip now...nice, and you want it to look like everyone else in here is the dill.

You're going well matey Backing yourself into a corner didnt work out too well did it.

If you dont like the way they regularly pick the odd midfielder on flanks, nor the way they treat goals kicked as fairly important for a pocket, then i reckon you should fire off a quick memo to Vlad telling him all about your concerns.

Cant have Cyril missing out simply because others might have been better...surely we can find a spot for him down back somewhere, or maybe in the ruck

Did Cyril have many "hitout assists" ?

 

[Bollox]

How about flogging Mitchell for awhile instead ? He's got competition too yanno, no cert thats for sure.

 

[Chewy]

Come on Bollox, you've been hammering that same joke for more than a week

Rioli gets a half forward flank - that has been established already
If you want K Jack in the fwd pocket, that's your choice (I think had him on my back flank )

1. Please explain how Milne gets in the AFL's best 22 when he can't make St Kilda's Top 10
2. Yes, goals are important, so I would also like an explanation why Jack Riewoldt and Travis Cloke aren't in your side
3. Please also respond to my point about Hawthorn's plethora of scoring options and St Kilda's lack thereof and the effect this would have on their goalkicking stats

Thanks in advance

 

[Chewy]

So you've done a complete backflip now...nice, and you want it to look like everyone else in here is the dill.

You're going well matey Backing yourself into a corner didnt work out too well did it.

Hardly

I said there had been a couple of occasions when the AA selectors named defenders from top teams who didn't figure in the B&F votes
Ron The Bear surprised me with 7 such occurrences, 6 of them from top teams, but only 1 from a shitty team

(Okay, I should've known the AA committee had made other mistakes, no biggie... )

But my point is the same. Nothing changes
Craig Bolton made the 2009 AA team after having an ordinary year for the 12th placed Swans
Poor choice... Bad decision by the AA committee. Will they make a similar stuff-up by naming Milne?

 

[Bollox]

Christ...look i got no interest in yet more silly circular arguments that suggest more about YOU than the players.
You're just plucking even more s**t out and running with it like its somehow meaningful.

Hey maybe its because they hate Milne as much as everyone else does There ya go.

Time you moved on from Cyril...its not healthy this obsession u have. He's a chance like others are.

basis the stuff you're now coming out with, how about this ?
...how the hell could they justify Mitchell being an AA midfielder ?...afterall there's at least 7 i can see, and god knows just how many other midfielders named ahead of him in the MVP the other day.

Would Mitchell be in the top 10 midfielders in the AFL if they dont vote for him in that award ?

 

[Bollox]

My opinion is that too many midfielders make AA...and probably will again.
I like the idea of picking a proper TEAM to win a game of footy, rather than just stacking in those that got the most ball upfield for their clubs and working around that.

I'd choose Cox in a pocket to help strengthen the list overall, plus a #1 ruck, maybe 2 mids on the bench and a couple of attacking wildcards like Rioli and Jetta for example to come off the bench for impact. They wont tho..betcha they pick about 9 plain vanilla midfielders.

 

[robstewart23]

If you had to do a all Australian team now... Who would be in it?

Richards McPharlin Glass
Waters Taylor Reilly
Selwood Watson Swan
Dangerfield Franklin Cotchin
Pavlich Hawkins Riewoldt
Cox Beams Ablett
Jack Kennedy Mitchell Thompson

 

[saintsrfreak]

Yeah, it will be interesting to see if the AA selectors make the same mistake as all the numbnuts in this thread

Please tell me, how is Rioli a better FP than Milne?

 

[Falchoon]

If Stephen Milne is selected in this season's All Australian team, then he will make history. No All Australian has ever failed to crack the top 10 of the Best & Fairest for a team that missed the finals. I think it's happened once or twice before that a defender from one of top teams has finished outside his club's Top 10, but made the All Australian team on reputation.

Missing games is often a reason for unexpected low placings in club B&Fs, but Milne played every game. You can't accuse the St Kilda coaches of favouring their midfielders either. Nick Riewoldt finished 4th, while three defenders polled well: Dempster 3rd, Geary 6th, Fisher 8th

2012 Trevor Barker Award Top 10:

1. Lenny Hayes, 124 votes
2. Leigh Montagna, 121 votes
3. Sean Dempster, 112 votes
4. Brendon Goddard, 96 votes
5. Nick Riewoldt, 81 votes
6. Jarryn Geary, 80 votes
7. Nick Dal Santo, 79 votes
8. Sam Fisher, 69 votes
9. David Armitage, 66 votes
10. Jack Steven, 65 votes

I believe he finished highest of St Kilda's small forwards

 

[Falchoon]

It is one of life's mysteries how Craig Bolton was a dual All Australian (same as Dustin Fletcher and Glen Jakovich)

Really, as a Saints supporter he was always Riewoldt's toughest opponent

 

[Falchoon]

Please explain how Milne gets in the AFL's best 22 when he can't make St Kilda's Top 10

He isn't in the AFL's best 22, but he's the best forward pocket

Yes, goals are important, so I would also like an explanation why Jack Riewoldt and Travis Cloke aren't in your side

Did they kick 60% more than the next in line ?

Please also respond to my point about Hawthorn's plethora of scoring options and St Kilda's lack thereof and the effect this would have on their goalkicking stats

Fair point

Milne kicked 16% of his teams goals, Rioli only 9%.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Milne finished 5th in the B&F last year though with a really similar season. The new coaches and B&F voting set up is why he finished outside the top 10, his year has been every bit as good as his AA season last year.

 

[Plugger35]

We may as well just name the whole Hawthorn team as the AA team just to keep Chewy happy.

How dare people name Milne in their AA teams based on his performances as a small forward this season, he didn't finish top 10 in St Kilda's B&F goddamnit!!!!

I didn't realise a top 10 finish in their clubs B&F was a prerequisite for players gaining AA selection but according to the football oracle Chewy it seems to be so he must be right.

 

[Scotland]

I really hope that Lewis, Mitchell, Suckling, Gibson, Sewell, Burgoyne, Hale, Roughead, Birchall, Schoenmakers fill the top 10 spots in the Hawthorn B&F...

 

[Partridge]

We may as well just name the whole Hawthorn team as the AA team just to keep Chewy happy.

How dare people name Milne in their AA teams based on his performances as a small forward this season, he didn't finish top 10 in St Kilda's B&F goddamnit!!!!

I didn't realise a top 10 finish in their clubs B&F was a prerequisite for players gaining AA selection but according to the football oracle Chewy it seems to be so he must be right.

Any straw they can grasp to get their favourites in. Milne must make as a forward pocket. I hate the little worm, but with LeCras injured he's the best small forward in the competition by a mile. Yet again he actually kicks goals - a fairly important thing for forwards. Even these days.

 

[Partridge]

We may as well just name the whole Hawthorn team as the AA team just to keep Chewy happy.

How dare people name Milne in their AA teams based on his performances as a small forward this season, he didn't finish top 10 in St Kilda's B&F goddamnit!!!!

I didn't realise a top 10 finish in their clubs B&F was a prerequisite for players gaining AA selection but according to the football oracle Chewy it seems to be so he must be right.

Any straw they can grasp to get their favourites in. Milne must make as a forward pocket. I hate the little worm, but with LeCras injured he's the best small forward in the competition by a mile. Yet again he actually kicks goals - a fairly important thing for forwards. Even these days.

 

[Chewy]

Milne finished 5th in the B&F last year though with a really similar season. The new coaches and B&F voting set up is why he finished outside the top 10, his year has been every bit as good as his AA season last year.

Can you please elaborate on what this means?

How is it that Milne can finish 12th in B&F voting this year (5th last year) and be "every bit as good" ?

I can see he has kicked the same number of goals, but St Kilda have been more attacking under Scott Watters than Ross Lyon. They've kicked 2347 points in 2012 compared to 1891 points last year. That's a 24% increase! So on goals alone, Milney's relative productivity has decreased. He kicked 20.4% of St Kilda's goals in 2011 and 16.2% of their goals in 2012

His tackles are down 20% from last year. This has been noticeable. A forward's job is to kick goals, create scoring opportunities, apply pressure, tackle and keep the ball locked in the forward line. Maybe his coaches weren't as thrilled as you were by all those games where Milne kicked a couple of goals and gave up the chase several times.

• 12th in the best and fairest
• 10th in the Best Player voting on the BigFooty St Kilda Board
• 9th in the Saintsational POTY voting

You blame the new St Kilda coaches for Milne's "surprisingly low" placing in the B&F votes, but it's a view which seems to be shared by the Saints fans as well.

 

[mufassa]

Petrie over Roughead is staggering IMO

If you were stagged he made the 40 man sqaud what was your reaction to top 10 in the MVP voting?

 

[Talentman]

Can you please elaborate on what this means?

How is it that Milne can finish 12th in B&F voting this year (5th last year) and be "every bit as good" ?

I can see he has kicked the same number of goals, but St Kilda have been more attacking under Scott Watters than Ross Lyon. They've kicked 2347 points in 2012 compared to 1891 points last year. That's a 24% increase! So on goals alone, Milney's relative productivity has decreased. He kicked 20.4% of St Kilda's goals in 2011 and 16.2% of their goals in 2012

His tackles are down 20% from last year. This has been noticeable. A forward's job is to kick goals, create scoring opportunities, apply pressure, tackle and keep the ball locked in the forward line. Maybe his coaches weren't as thrilled as you were by all those games where Milne kicked a couple of goals and gave up the chase several times.

• 12th in the best and fairest
• 10th in the Best Player voting on the BigFooty St Kilda Board
• 9th in the Saintsational POTY voting

You blame the new St Kilda coaches for Milne's "surprisingly low" placing in the B&F votes, but it's a view which seems to be shared by the Saints fans as well.

Do you think the transformation from a rolling maul style of play to a freer flowing brand of football may have led to a fall in tackle numbers across the board not just with Milne?

 

[saintsrfreak]

Can you please elaborate on what this means?

How is it that Milne can finish 12th in B&F voting this year (5th last year) and be "every bit as good" ?

I can see he has kicked the same number of goals, but St Kilda have been more attacking under Scott Watters than Ross Lyon. They've kicked 2347 points in 2012 compared to 1891 points last year. That's a 24% increase! So on goals alone, Milney's relative productivity has decreased. He kicked 20.4% of St Kilda's goals in 2011 and 16.2% of their goals in 2012

His tackles are down 20% from last year. This has been noticeable. A forward's job is to kick goals, create scoring opportunities, apply pressure, tackle and keep the ball locked in the forward line. Maybe his coaches weren't as thrilled as you were by all those games where Milne kicked a couple of goals and gave up the chase several times.

• 12th in the best and fairest
• 10th in the Best Player voting on the BigFooty St Kilda Board
• 9th in the Saintsational POTY voting

You blame the new St Kilda coaches for Milne's "surprisingly low" placing in the B&F votes, but it's a view which seems to be shared by the Saints fans as well.

How does being more attacking as a side make Milne's goals less valuable? Watters brought in more scoring avenues like Saad, Milera and Wilkes, as well as Riewoldt getting into better form because of the treatment he received on his knee.

So it seems like your only arguments are that he laid less tackles and a B&F finish. You're seriously obsessed with him, accept the fact that he's been the best small forward this year and move on.

 

[Partridge]

Please tell me, how is Rioli a better FP than Milne?

Greater output of Bruce McAveney's bodily fluids. I'm starting to think Hawthorn supporters actually use his squeals as some sort of guide.

They fail to see that both can be selected - there are two forward pockets. Plus four spots on the bench. But if you were picking a forward pocket right now, I'd pick Milne (whom I loathe far, far more than Rioli) every day of the week.

 

[Chewy]

He isn't in the AFL's best 22, but he's the best forward pocket. Milne kicked 16% of his teams goals, Rioli only 9%.

I think Rioli had a far better season than Milne, but if you want to ignore actual performances and make this a statistical argument between 2 forward pockets, then by all means, let's do so.

Betts - 22 games, 48 goals, 30 behinds, 25 assists (73 goals + assists)
Milne - 22 games, 56 goals, 38 behinds, 19 assists (75 goals + assists)

Betts had a hand in 24.4% of Carlton's total goals and kicked 15.2% of Carlton's total score
Milne had a hand in 21.7% of St Kilda's total goals and kicked 15.9% of St Kilda's total score
Betts's accuracy is 61.5%, Milne's accuracy is 59.6%




Betts - 285 possessions, 182 kicks, 103 handballs, 153 contested possessions (54%)
Milne - 274 possessions, 218 kicks, 56 handballs, 106 contested possessions (38%)

They played the same number of games and got roughly the same number of possessions.
Betts was 1.5 times more likely to win his own ball and twice as likely to handball to a teammate in better position


Betts - 62 tackles, 22 one-percenters, 26 frees for, 14 frees against, 1759 Supercoach pts (av 80.0)
Milne - 47 tackles, 17 one-percenters, 22 frees for, 29 frees against, 1527 Supercoach pts (av 69.4)

Betts tackles more, works harder, chases harder, does more team oriented things and is more likely to draw a free kick. Milne is twice as likely to give away a free kick and his lesser contribution is reflected by his consistently low Supercoach points totals, as irrelevent as these may be to some people.

----


Eddie Betts is superior to Milne in every statistical category, except for being a hog. Milne has kicked 8 goals more and Betts has given away 6 more. He is superior to Milne in all the team aspects, right across the board (and I don't need to use stats to say that)

Of course, you will say none of this matters because you've decided that "goals kicked" is the only relevant measure. You've got nothing else to hang your hat on. It's the only way you can make a case for Milne, despite me posting dozens of examples from previous years when "goals kicked" was clearly not a determining factor in many AA selections.

Jack Riewoldt won the Coleman, but most people have left him out because he wasn't one of the best key forwards. Likewise, Mline should be left out because he was not best forward pocket.

 

[Falchoon]

Betts was 1.5 times more likely to win his own ball

lol

Betts is 1.5 times less likely to lose his opponent

 

[Blue and Silver]

lol

Betts is 1.5 times less likely to lose his opponent

...what?

Eddie dives onto balls at the bottom of packs and feeds them out, it's not his opponent, it's half the defence