All Blacks' Squad-Player

[Dipper]

Player,
I see that the All Blacks have left out Wilson & Cullen, Wilson is a big shocker for me whilst I think Cullen has injury problems.Also Randell's out-what do you think of Mitchell as coach(can he use what he learned with the English )

 

[Player]

Jeff Wilson has looked a pale imitation of himself all season.

On attack he has lacked any real aggression to challenge opposition wingers one-on-one, and has even been reluctant to employ his usual tactic of the chip and chase, instead he favours just taking the tackle.

On defence he has been truly woeful and his front on tackling has been almost nonexistent.

Unfortunately he has had a mystery illness for two years and after the final of the local final he collapsed during the presentations.

He will not now get back as he has lost his passion for the game. Still I remember him fondly from destroying the Australian attack to win two consecutive one-dayers when both looked hopeless in 93? and his heroics in 94 All Black tour to South Africa that led to our only ever test series victory there.

Cullen is ditto with his form, although his knee needs rest I worry the tighter defensive patterns and that his massive step was only really one way has lessened his awesome attacking ability. If he has lost a yard of pace then he could struggle to reclaim his position because as much as I try to hate MacDonald he seems competent enough.

Randell absence surprised me, although Laurie Mains reckons he should have gone, and he is considered the most authoritative rugbyhead these days, even if he was his Otago, Highlanders, AB coach.

And as for Mitch, I love John Mitchell, not only was he the long time servant of my province (Waikato) from 1985 when we were relegated, but was the captain of the mighty team that twice upset the invincible Auckland teams of the late 80s till early 90s. Auckland had 14 All Blacks at the time and Waikato one, still we were National Champions in 1992, and successful Ranfurly Shield challengers in 1993.

I still remember the chant from 93

Wer'all part of Mitchell's army,
Wer'all part of Mitchell's team,
We will show 'em how it feels,
When we take away their Shield,
Waikato is the greatest rugby team.

Not to mention the only club he ever played for was my own, and this year he has taken time to run most of the main local senior club teams training sessions at least once.

His drills are both challenging and refreshingly interesting. His bible is a small, colourful but poorly selling rugby drills manual intended for teenagers that is only available in England, so they had better work.

 

[Dipper]

I dig the chant Player it's always good to stuff it up the big teams whatever the sport.

You said that Waikato were National Champions in 1992 & Ranfurly Shield challengers in 93 but I always thought that the Ranfurly shiled was the national championship? What's the difference?

How good a cricketer could Jeff Wilson have been?My memory is that he bowled briskish medium & was a hard hitting batsman, seemed as if he could have been a good 1 day player but did he have enough about him to be a test player.
It always interests me sportsman that could have been an international at another sport especially when that sport is cricket-Phil Neville at Man U was the youngest player to score a century for Lancashire 2nd II & a former bowler & coach there said that he was the 2nd best young batsman he ever bowled to behind David Boon.

There's a Scottish rugby commentator over here called Bill McLaren I don't know if you've heard of him but every Saturday in one of the papers he's selecting a player for his all time world XV & this week he picked his right winger from a pool of Ieuan Evans, Stu Wilson, John Kirwan, Gerard Davies & an English guy form the 50's whos name escapes me, well after your comment the other day about stu Wilson you'll be enraged to know that he didn't pick him but went for Davies instead.


cheers

 

[Player]

You dig that chant, pity I can not type the rabid anti-Auckland song, at the time I thought it was a real gem!

National Provincal Championship and Ranfurly Shield, is comparable somewhat in prestige to winning the premiership vs the FA Cup.

The NPC is obvious but the Shield (the 'log of wood', or just 'the log') is played for during the regular season. The holder must defend it against all challengers at all their home games. Semis/Finals do not count as shield games. The challenger must win the game, a draw means the defenders keep the shield.

Obviously the best teams can get long shield reigns. Auckland did not lose a shield game at Eden Park from 1986-1993, over 50 consecutive home wins (they also won all their away games) so you can imagine just how much they were hated.

When the Shield was first presented in 1908 by Lord Ranfurly he thought it was for the local football competition and the silver engraving in the middle was of a football match. A silversmith had to change the goals to posts.

You are right Jeff Wilson would never made it as a test player, still it is freaky talent to be a standout all-rounder in a one-day game and then take the shots at goal for the ABs next year.

I wish I had his kinds of delimmas and he has only just turned 28. Rumour is he now wants to play basketball in the local league and first class cricket, I kid you not.

I know there was an outstanding dual England international from the 1950s? Football and cricket, but I have no idea what his name is.

Those days are certainly gone forever.

With football booming in Europe I guess I would make the same decision as Phil Neville. It appears to me English cricket is starting to cocoon itself in the Asian community. Just thinking about recent crowd difficulties and ALL your up in coming batsmen. Is this right?

Personally I was a little disappointed when I heard Botham's son decided to turn his back on cricket, any idea how he is going in rugby?

 

[Dipper]

I think the guy you're talking about is Dennis Compton-he was one of England's greatest ever Test batsmen & probably the most entertaining & best loved.He also played for Arsenal (as did his brother) & I believe represented England, they reckon he could have been really good if he had just stuck to football.

Ian Botham played for S****horpe in the FA Cup as centre back & actually injured himself & had to miss a few Tests (Viv Richards trumped this by playing an a World Cup qualifier for Antigua).

Yeah I was gutted whe Liam Botahm opted for Rugby over cricket, he took a 5 for on his 1st class debut & actually got Mike Gatting out something his father had never managed to do in over 15 years!(strangly as a player I think he was probably pretty similar to Jeff Wilson-his action was an exact replica of his dad's but he's bit taller)His rugby career is going ok, he plays wing for Newcastle but he doesn't really have the pace, he used to play for Cardiff & the Wlesh wanted to pick him but he pledged allegiance to England & has played A internationals for us but he just isn't quick enough-I think he sometimes plays centre & this may be a better bet for him.
Interestingly Mike Gatting's brother played for Arsenal & I believe that Mike was a promising goalie, also Graham Thorpe was an England schollboy football international.Apparently Herschele Gibbs the South African opener was a top notch football prospect & one of the best junior fly halfs that they'd ever seen in South Africa & I think he could run pretty fast as well

Tho whole Asian cricket thing is strange as its obviously the most popular sport in their communities, whereas its dying a death with most young white kids.The thing is I reckon that about 95% of Asians in Britain don't support the England cricket team & I don't think they ever will, there seems to be a high number of Asian batsmen breaking into the England cricket team, I'm not sure if its totally on talent or whether the aim is to get Asian kids identifying with the England cricket team.The trouble is speaking personally there is a limit where if there are too many Asians in the England side then I won't be able to identify witht the side any more & I'll stop giving a stuff.


RE the ranfurly Shield is it like a boxing belt that if you play the holder (at home) & win then you become the Ranfurly Shield holders.Or is it just that you have to try & defend it for a season by remaining unbeaten at home?

 

[Player]

Yeah it was Dennis Crompton, didn't know he had a brother thou.
I remember Botham at S****horpe about 85 wasn't it, I thought he only played a couple of games for fun then retired, didn't know he managed to injure himself.

The shield is exactly like the boxing belt. The defender must win each home game if not on losing it passes to the successful captain.

A shield reign has lasted from as little as three days, or for seven l-o-n-g years. It predates the NPC (1908 to 1971) so it shows want a amateur and ad hoc sport rugby must have been.

Before the Super 12 it was huge, parades, massive crowds, etc, real provincial pride called shield fever now because only the big unions win it, it is starting to look more than a little tired.

In 1972 tiny Marlborough upset a Canterbury 'A' side (think S****horpe beating Arsenal at Highbury), and then only played second and third division teams for two years. Rules changed after that and the NZRFU decided there had to be a few 'friendlies' each year involving the shield team and first division teams.

Personally I value cricketing talent over other sports, I don't know how you feel but it is bowling talent that I think is really precious. Rugby has so much depth, and good batsman are great, but I value really good wicket taking bowlers. NZ cricket has so little depth or breath that losing any promising player like Botham would really annoy me. NZ bowlers break down so easily, can never run through a tail and struggle against top level batsman. None of our current tour would come close to making the Australian team, and a few might struggle to make a state team.

Seeing as you have the only test player in the world that can not bat, bowl or field in Edward Giddens I guess you would have to agree.

Any athlete can play rugby, but it takes a special individual to become a quality bowler. These bloody aussies do not realise how lucky they are.

PS In football do they still play for the Anglo-Italian cup? I haven't heard about it in years.

 

[The Hippie]

Originally posted by Player

Any athlete can play rugby, but it takes a special individual to become a quality bowler. These bloody aussies do not realise how lucky they are.

Mate, I do realise how lucky we are at the moment having guys like Warne, Mcgrath and Gillespie. I'm old enough to remember the shellackings we used to get from the WIndies not so long ago and can also remember when we lost to *gasp* England!!

Sorry Dip, it had to be done.

Seriously, you have to make the most of the time you have on top, because sometimes they're a long time returning.

 

[Player]

Originally posted by DIPPER

There's a Scottish rugby commentator over here called Bill McLaren I don't know if you've heard of him
cheers

Bill McLaren is a fair dinkum legend of the game. His wide spread knowledge, Scottish accent, and the verbose manner in which he liberally shows his approval of good entertaining rugby makes him my favourite commentator in any code or sport.

One of the best things about watching Scottish rugby is Bill McLaren's call. He is so popular in New Zealand that local television brought him out to be the commentator for the last Scottish tour to New Zealand.

If rugby has a hall of fame somewhere in this world he deserves to be in it. If Bill recognises that Davis is the best all round winger of all time, then thats good enough for me.


To Hippie:
Yeah that's a fair call. I'm obviously way to young to remember the 1948 Australian team but this would have to be my greatest cricket team of all time.

The only comforting thing is that next year is always a new season with new emerging talent, and this Aussie team isn't getting any younger. Despite the praise put on the structure of Australian cricket, AIS etc, I have not seen the same depth of talent emerging in the next generation, with preferred replacements all having been fringe test players for several years already.

Still it's a pity that younger supporters can not remember how competitive test cricket was in the 80s, especially from a kiwi point of view.

 

[Dipper]

I'm with you on bowling(esp really quick stuff) I love it & have to agree that its one of the greatest disciplines in any sport.I love to see the slow mo replays of the great fast bowlers' actions & watch in detail every breakdown of their action, you really get to appreciate the stresses put on the body & the strength & suppleness required, if you ever watch Thommo's action it's unbelievable.You blokes were definitely spoilt having the great R.J. Hadlee-I remember Gooch once saying of NZ it's like facing the world II at one end & Ilford 2nd's at the other.Although a lot of people rate Lillee as the best ever, Hadlee's wickets to games ratio is better than anyone's especially over hte last half of his career.

When you say that the NZ attack can't run through the tail & struggles against top line batsman it sounds so familiar although I 'm sure you've had a few Ed Giddins over the years.The England squad to face India this winter contains a few un knowns that I confidently guarantee won't make the rest of world cricket stand up & take note.

Hippie,
the difference between remembering the whippings off the Windies is at leasdt they were the top side going when you lost to England in the mid 80's it was 2 very poor sides slugging it out which was a shame as the Ashes was meant to be the pinnacle of world cricket.I don'tknow if we'll ever get it back at cricket I have my doubts but I'm always praying (I still harbour hopes of a test debut myself at the age of 29-hehe)


As for the Anglo Italia cup its gone now, I think they played it a number of years ago (60s or 70s) & then they brought it back a few years ago between teams from the English 2nd division (now 1st div) & teams from Serie B.The trouble was that big melees seemed to kick off nearly every game, there was something explosive about the mixture of English & Italian sides-there were loads of red cards & vicious challenges.I think it came about because the Italians didn't appreciate the gun ho Anglo Saxon approach of 2 footed tackles, high feet, constant harrying & hard tackling whilst the English didn't appreciate the Italian shirt pulling, diving,brutal off the ball challenges & play acting-a clash of cultures really.Doesn't happen so much now as the football played is much more similar.It was good fun while it lasted though

 

[Player]

Hey Dipp I just saw the first day of the test against Australia and it took a short overweight frumpy batsman (worst of all bowling just as quick as our so called attack) to make any inroads into the Australian batting.

This could be a long summer.

I remember when Gooch said that, because Richard Hadlee was unavailable for the next test but Lance Cairns took a seven-for in our first ever test match victory in England. Talk about your great karma.

Growing up I though the kiwi attack was awesome in the 80s, and took victory for granted, every test, every series, every summer we practically had the same bowlers.

Richard Hadlee. Hadlee was Hadlee. Immaculate line and length.
Lance Cairns. Bowled off the wrong foot but got massive banana swing. It was revelled after he retired he is virtually deaf.
Charlie Chatfield. Brisk Medium. Would bowl all day up hill, into the wind, whatever you asked.
And ever realiable Ian Smith keeping wicket. They all complimented each other so brillantly.

Spoilt with Hadlee? Just because your great had an Elvis diet, in between staring for S****horpe of course.

Then came the 90s. Ouch. Ed Gidden's were coming out from everywhere. We went to battle with an army of Ed Gidden's and got hammered all round the world. I had never seen so many innings defeats.

A New Zealand tourist watching a net session on a England tour gets a bowl, then plays 30 tests, that's how bad things got. He took all of fifty wickets for NZ to.

Even the poms thumped us regularly. Damn annoying when the bowler is Caddick and looks like a poor mans Hadlee

Australians think the Lille-Marsh combination was great I have always felt the Haddle-Smith one was better. Of course (insert windies great) and Dujon were probably better still.

We get the Channel Nine coverage from Australia here and some of the c rap they try and sell is unbelievable. Framed this and mounted that, sporting memorbralia is personal and collected during ones life time as a reminder, not conventianly limited to 5000 units and brought for $795 plus $25 postage every summer.

The only stuff like that pushed in NZ is overpriced junk from Hadlee's testimony. I hope the great man himself doesn't have a warehouse full of the stuff somewhere and creditors circling, cause I can not see to many impulse buyers now suddenly appearing.

Still I had to laugh when the EWCB threatened those that pulled out of touring India would be ineligible for selection to New Zealand. Things must be getting serious.

Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly and the spin of Kumble. Such an accurate facsimile of New Zealand cricket it is spooky.

PS any cricketers come from Wales? Ever? Why not?

What's going on with Wembley. I know they(?) abandoned a major renovation because of the cost, so now does it look like a construction site or just a half forgotten 70 year old sports stadium. I heard several years ago Arsenal were thinking of moving in what happened to that.

And why oh why isn't twickers being used for the football, surely it must be more convenient than going all the way out to Cardiff.

 

[Ms.Storm]

Good to see some cricket talk guys..

Go for it.

Good reading.

 

[Dipper]

Player,
I was happy that your blokes staged a comeback surprised to see McMillan get the wickets I always thought he was a pretty good batsman.He was always a bit of a dumpy looking sort.Personally I've always felt that Chris cairns could have been up there with the greats if he wasn't so injury prone-Atherton was once asked who was the quickest bowler he faced & he said that for a while CC was as quick as anyone.

Poor old Lance Cairns whenever I think of hi I rememebr him standing at quare leg when a little dolly catch loobed up to him at about 10mph & .................you guessed it he dropped it.The look on his face it was cross between embarassment & terror.

Yeah Elvis diet, that's the difference between the 2 of them, Botham at 25 had his best years behind him Hadlee at 30 still had his to come.Still I'd rate those 2 better than both Dev & Imran.

Cricketer's from Wales?.....well if it was down to me there wouldn't be any.
There is one at present & he's the cricketer I despise more than any other it's the man who's tried to revolutionise off spin bowling by not actually turning the ball...at all.....ever.Yes its Robert Croft, the worst spin bowler to play Test cricket.
There was also a guy called Steve Watkin a few years ago he was an honest journeyman fast medium bowler (sound familiar )& then there was Matthew Maynard a middle order batsmen who for some reason loads of people used to think was really talented & couldn't work out why he didn't do well at Test level-it may have something to do with the fact that he looked like a rabbit caught in a car's headlights everytime he went out to bat.


Wembley's gone I think for good, there still arguing about it, actually its worked out well with England playing all over the country, the fans have responded & the opposition don't get that lift that opposition cricket teams seem to get at Lords.The only reason to miss it is for the Cup Final but people don't seem to mind going to Cardiff.Unfortuantely it just looks like a disused 70 year old Stadium, the paint peeling & all that stuff-sad really.
Arsenal did try to buy it but they wouldn't let them as at the time it was felt that the new Wembley would be built there-in hindsight they could have let us have it but I'm glad they didn't our record in Europe when we played home games there was terrible.

As for Twickenham its in a residential area & they have enough trouble from the locals when they stage matches , there's a limit on the number of games each year & there's no way that they would stand for football fans pitching up there.They don't even put on concerts there or anything like that.Plus I think there's a feeling in the RFU that they would let football be played on the hallowed turf over their dead bodies.

BTW didn't the Kiwis not lose a home Test series for about 10 years or something in the 80's?Also didn't they inflict the only series defeat on the great windies side?

Finally I've got a little Sean Fitzpatrick story for you that made me chuckle, ina test versus Wales(I think before the last WC) he was on the bench & he came on jsut in time for a scrum, Robert Howley says that Fitzy has jogged on bound with his props looked at the referee (its a Wales put in) & said 'you can make sure that he(Howley) puts it in straight now'& then he's turned to Craig Dowd & said (& you....you can start pushing'.LOL-the king of phsycology & the only man to referee a game from hooker.

 

[Player]

Small world this is Matthew Maynard was our local first class teams overseas professional several seasons ago now, and showed some better than reasonable form, although of course he was facing armies of Ed Giddens.

Think he hanged around for several seasons. There may even have been talk of him playing for New Zealand at one stage.

Mind you we also had Hick for at least two years also (and he almost averaged 100 with the bat) it was hoped he would forget England and fall in love with the Kiwi lifestyle. Ha Ha, thank god he did not.

I can't even remember what Cairns fielding position was, couldn't tell me could you. The best (only) Lance Cairns catch recall I have was when the batsman drove the ball into the foot of silly mid on, and he caught it. Saw the Australians do the same thing a couple of years ago.

You're right about our home field advantage in the 80's. The media made alot about it when the team was in obvious decline near the end of the decade, and could they manage to remain undefeated. 90s was the opposite end of the spectrum.

Our 1980 series win over the Windies was famous with Croft (not Robert) running into the umpire. I don't actually remember that series, but I do in 1987 when in the last test needing 30 runs in the second innings to win and tie the test series we lost 5 wickets. The fiercest bowling spell I have ever seen. Very angry Windies bowlers that day I can tell you.

Fitzpatrick's name has been a bit in the mud over here recently. Norm Hewitt his long time deputy has released a biography. The "Bully, Drug Dealer, Alcoholic, All Black" says in the first scrum of his first AB trial Fitzpatrick broke his nose, old TV shows Hewitt coming off with blood everywhere, and apparently he would always taunt him as a reminder just who the number 1 hooker was. Has the tell all biography got any coverage over there? I doubt it as Hewitt was a glorified one test wonder, but his tell all book certainly breaks the what happens on tour says on tour tradition.