Expansion Alternate AFL World 1987

[footyfan1978]

For those of us that lived through the football in the 1980's and saw the transition of so much of football clubs and leagues in next couple of decades I wonder if we can imagine an alternate footy world where things took an alternate path as if two worlds branched off in reality.

Suspend every little detail of the time and how this came about, just imagine it did.
Somehow the leagues got together for the good of the overall game and things change which would not be to everyone's liking but it got decided for the good of the sport overall this was what is happening from 1987 onwards:


The VFL adopt it's name change to AFL for 1987 and it is to be a 14 club league for now on.

7 current VFL clubs stay as is. Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Richmond, Geelong, Melbourne and North Melbourne
The two worst historical clubs on premierships get told they can keep their identity as a club and their debts are cleared but have to go play in the VFA... St.Kilda and Footscray

Two clubs each, from WAFL and SANFL are added to the expanded AFL. Port Adelaide Magpies, Norwood, East Fremantle Sharks and West Perth Falcons
Hawks relocate to Tasmania as Hobart Hawks
Fitzroy relocate to Brisbane as Brisbane Lions and debt all cleared.

The AFL agree to that Sunday football is off limits except for Sydney Swans and all traditional state leagues including the VFA get the niche market of Sunday for them to get AFL free in their state. AFL games can be played Friday night to Saturday night on weekend but apart from Sydney Swans no other games can ever be programmed for a Sunday. Sunday is state league football day forever more.
SANFL becomes an 8 club league for Sunday's.
VFA gets Footscray and St.Kilda added to it and Sunday football market in Victoria.
WAFL has to decide if it runs as a 6 club league in Perth on Sunday's or invites two other suburban clubs to remain as 8 there for Sunday's.

TV broadcasts rights are advanced and all finances are underwritten to fix club and league finances in the late 80's.

Would we be in a better situation of the sport in such an alternative footy world timeline ?
Would all the fans have an AFL club they follow in first part of weekend and a state league club each Sunday ?

 

[scotty13]

In a real alternate AFL world, the VFL wouldn't be the basis of the AFL, rather a truely national competition would be formed which would include multiple sides from various states and territories, a 'fixture' where everyone plays each other twice (or a conference style fixture).
We would also have a 2-tier competition where the bottom sides in the top tier are relegated and the grand finalists of the 2nd tier promoted.
The MCG wouldn't be where every GF is played, 'State of Origin' wouldn't be Victoria vs everyone else, and teams would be rewarded or punished by their performances.

 

[footyfan1978]

Round One 1987

Friday Night: North Melbourne v East Fremantle

Saturday:
Norwood v Sydney Swans
Melbourne v Port Adelaide
Hobart Hawks v Collingwood
Brisbane Lions v Geelong

Saturday Night:
Essendon v Carlton
West Perth v Richmond


Sunday: State League Football
VFA in Victoria: Port Melbourne, Sandringham. St.Kilda, Williamstown, Footscray etc
WAFL in WA: Subiaco, South Fremantle, Swan Districts, East Perth. Claremont etc.
SANFL in SA: Glenelg. South Adelaide, Sturt, North Adelaide, West Torrens etc
etc etc.

 

[Monkey King]

We would also have a 2-tier competition where the bottom sides in the top tier are relegated and the grand finalists of the 2nd tier promoted.

I have no idea why anyone thinks this could work in Australia.

 

[EB&W Pieman]

In 1898, the interstate games would have been a real problem.

 

[Dazzler9]

In a real alternate AFL world, the VFL wouldn't be the basis of the AFL, rather a truely national competition would be formed which would include multiple sides from various states and territories, a 'fixture' where everyone plays each other twice (or a conference style fixture).
We would also have a 2-tier competition where the bottom sides in the top tier are relegated and the grand finalists of the 2nd tier promoted.
The MCG wouldn't be where every GF is played, 'State of Origin' wouldn't be Victoria vs everyone else, and teams would be rewarded or punished by their performances.

Definitely. Ideal world has Eagles, Dockers, Crows, etc, plus Tassie, and about 4 or 5 Victorian start-ups, all commencing circa 1987.

The 4 or 5 Victorian start-ups would've been just as loved and well-supported as Eagles, Crows etc. are.

That's not what happened obviously, so we are stuck with a Vic-centric comp, for better or worse.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

If there had been the money available, rather than needing the Bears and Eagles licence money to keep Collingwood alive; we probably wouldn't be a in a situation where it costs $40m to run a bare-bones club at the top level.

Instead there may well be some form of promotion/relegation, though not including the whole pyramid. Having much lower costs might have allowed this to occur.

All the VFL (including Sydney), SANFL, WAFL clubs would probably be there and selected stronger off-field clubs form other states (e.g. Southport, North Cairns, North Hobart, Glenorchy, St Marys, Ainslie). Maybe some VFA clubs.
Below the national tiers (either one or two levels) things would be regional due to the costs. Although as promotion/relegation happened, balancing the regional tiers could become an issue.

There probably would be no draft. And salary caps with promotion/relegation can be problematic, though the gap between the tiers (both on and off field) would be far less than currently exists between the AFL and the top state leagues.

 

[scotty13]

I have no idea why anyone thinks this could work in Australia.

There is no reason why it wouldn't. I agree, if the AFL turned around tomorrow and said a relegation system will be inplace from the 2021 season moving forward it wouldn't work. However, 30yrs ago if a truely national competition was created and a relegation/promotion system was set up then... no reason why it couldn't work.

Definitely. Ideal world has Eagles, Dockers, Crows, etc, plus Tassie, and about 4 or 5 Victorian start-ups, all commencing circa 1987.

The 4 or 5 Victorian start-ups would've been just as loved and well-supported as Eagles, Crows etc. are.

That's not what happened obviously, so we are stuck with a Vic-centric comp, for better or worse.

I don't like the idea of made up teams though. I would still have pre-existing clubs entering the competition rather than 'new' clubs.

 

[footyfan1978]

Definitely. Ideal world has Eagles, Dockers, Crows, etc, plus Tassie, and about 4 or 5 Victorian start-ups, all commencing circa 1987.

I do not think so. Did you live through it? Have you imagined the alternative as I presented where no new clubs need starting up and state league are not off the radar like they have become?
All those clubs in SANFL, WAFL etc. lost most of their community of fans. Where are all those hordes of Sharks supporters, Claremont supporters etc. It has just withered away as now most next generation people in those states could not care of those clubs anymore and only follow Eagles or Dockers.
In this alternate world maybe we have those clubs still have similar following or bigger following than they had in early 80s. New clubs from nothing have just taken new generation supporters away from those much older traditional clubs. Following of those leagues fell away massively. This alternate world may have seen VFA Sunday football and those other state league have a niche market on Sunday that most would have followed every Sunday after they got the AFL league fix in first part of weekend.

I think this alternate footy world would have been interesting to see how it played out.

 

[AndyD]

For those of us that lived through the football in the 1980's and saw the transition of so much of football clubs and leagues in next couple of decades I wonder if we can imagine an alternate footy world where things took an alternate path as if two worlds branched off in reality.

Suspend every little detail of the time and how this came about, just imagine it did.
Somehow the leagues got together for the good of the overall game and things change which would not be to everyone's liking but it got decided for the good of the sport overall this was what is happening from 1987 onwards:


The VFL adopt it's name change to AFL for 1987 and it is to be a 14 club league for now on.

7 current VFL clubs stay as is. Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Richmond, Geelong, Melbourne and North Melbourne
The two worst historical clubs on premierships get told they can keep their identity as a club and their debts are cleared but have to go play in the VFA... St.Kilda and Footscray

Two clubs each, from WAFL and SANFL are added to the expanded AFL. Port Adelaide Magpies, Norwood, East Fremantle Sharks and West Perth Falcons
Hawks relocate to Tasmania as Hobart Hawks
Fitzroy relocate to Brisbane as Brisbane Lions and debt all cleared.

The AFL agree to that Sunday football is off limits except for Sydney Swans and all traditional state leagues including the VFA get the niche market of Sunday for them to get AFL free in their state. AFL games can be played Friday night to Saturday night on weekend but apart from Sydney Swans no other games can ever be programmed for a Sunday. Sunday is state league football day forever more.
SANFL becomes an 8 club league for Sunday's.
VFA gets Footscray and St.Kilda added to it and Sunday football market in Victoria.
WAFL has to decide if it runs as a 6 club league in Perth on Sunday's or invites two other suburban clubs to remain as 8 there for Sunday's.

TV broadcasts rights are advanced and all finances are underwritten to fix club and league finances in the late 80's.

Would we be in a better situation of the sport in such an alternative footy world timeline ?
Would all the fans have an AFL club they follow in first part of weekend and a state league club each Sunday ?

Well it would certainly change the winners of the 88/89/91 GFs as there is no chance a relocated Hawthorn wins those flags.

In this timeline I don’t think the MCG gets the GSS Reno in 92 (and the added inventory of games to help pay for it) or Docklands is built. It also probably kills the SANFL by dropping it to number 3/4 quicker by losing its biggest club without the benefit of the Crows coming in 3 years later. The WAFL would also have a pretty big drop off by losing teams to this competition and having to replace them with lower revenue drawing teams.

Theoretically this league would also be without such stars as Locket, Lowe, Harvey, Hawkins, Libby, Wynd and Grant as they would now be playing in the VFA. If anything this would seem to lead to a bidding war and possibly kill of the VFA clubs by having them get into battles with financially superior clubs to try and retain their players.

If Sydney/Brisbane struggled in their early days financially (and still do to a degree), how much worse off would they have been having to host multiple low drawing Perth/Adelaide teams since 1987. I also assume under this system the AFLs equalisation measures aren’t really used eg COLA etc, which would place an even greater burden on those clubs.

In this hypothetical, does the league still expand to 16 and then 18 teams in the mid 90’s and mid 10’s? Would 15&16 be what was to become Crows & WCE and then 17 and 18 still GC and GWS?


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[Monkey King]

There is no reason why it wouldn't. I agree, if the AFL turned around tomorrow and said a relegation system will be inplace from the 2021 season moving forward it wouldn't work. However, 30yrs ago if a truely national competition was created and a relegation/promotion system was set up then... no reason why it couldn't work.

There’s millions of reasons why it wouldn’t work and they all start with $. This is even more so the case back then than it is now. At least now there’s heaps of money flowing, back then almost every state comp was struggling financially; running a second tier comp at national level wouldn’t have been viable in the slightest.

 

[footyfan1978]

I don't like the idea of made up teams though. I would still have pre-existing clubs entering the competition rather than 'new' clubs.

Exactly why I started to imagine the alternative history if there had been a different approach and clubs like Norwood, East Fremantle, Port Adelaide and West Perth had been allowed in as they were. It would not really take away from what existed to give to new clubs. Would just be existing clubs moving to the one premier league that was happening already.

 

[footyfan1978]

In this hypothetical, does the league still expand to 16 and then 18 teams in the mid 90’s and mid 10’s? Would 15&16 be what was to become Crows & WCE and then 17 and 18 still GC and GWS?

Nope, it only goes to 14 as was set out in 1987 to be forever more in this alternate footy world. The main idea is not to need made up things like Crows and Eagles that virtually ended the healthy followings the traditional clubs in those leagues had. This alternative is to try to get the best of both worlds for the premier and state leagues for the good of the sport overall. Have a high standard AFL but also have state league have a strong following each Sunday. I think it could have worked. It already kind of existed in Victoria before when Sunday football was VFA football and Saturday was the elite stuff of the VFL. Once Bears, Eagles and new clubs come along and the expanded league took over the whole weekend and demanded more and more players from other leagues to create more clubs the other leagues withered away to skeleton leagues they are now. It is sad those SANFL cliubs no longer have those followers each weekend and in WAFL too and the VFA here. The AFL with 18 clubs and the whole weekend has taken too much away that was good of the past.

 

[footyfan1978]

The old league zone systems would be getting phased out too with salary cap and draft era coming into being. In this alternate world the clubs from each state get first choice of players from their state into 1st two rounds of the draft each year. So example of the 7 Vic based clubs pick a Vic kid for round one and two and for WA clubs first couple of rounds the WA kids etc etc. After first couple of rounds it is open slather nationally. There would probably be a bidding system too where clubs can still bid on elite kids from other states live in those opening first rounds but advantage to match bid still is retained by home state clubs for such kids.
Reserves and curtain raisers for all 14 clubs would remain but under 19's would go away for Vic based clubs with old zone systems phased out. VFA clubs could have the best 17 year olds playing with them before they drafted in Victoria.

 

[Dazzler9]

There is no reason why it wouldn't. I agree, if the AFL turned around tomorrow and said a relegation system will be inplace from the 2021 season moving forward it wouldn't work. However, 30yrs ago if a truely national competition was created and a relegation/promotion system was set up then... no reason why it couldn't work.



I don't like the idea of made up teams though. I would still have pre-existing clubs entering the competition rather than 'new' clubs.

Every team is a "made up" team at some point.

 

[footyfan1978]

Out of the young West Aussie players of the time I wonder out of East Femantle or West Perth who would have got the better of them in this alternate footy world going forward. Jakovich, Kemp, McKenna, Worsfold, Sumich, Heady and they like. A few of them probably were with one of those clubs already at end of 1986 so one or two maybe not even needing going through draft system. Mark Bickey, Ben Hart and Modra would end up Norwood or Port Adelaide Magpie players in this alternate world going forward.

 

[Atomboy]

In an alternate world the WAFL and SANFL in conjunction with Kerry Stokes set up a new national competition in 1987 inviting four of the Victorian clubs plus new clubs in Sydney and Hobart.

Knowing that the VFL and lower ranked clubs are essentially bankrupt, these four clubs jump at the opportunity and leave the VFL. The remaining clubs are absorbed into the VFA.

AFL HQ is set up in Adelaide where the mouth breathers from Melbourne’s private school system are kept at bay and professional managers with ethics, capability and talent are employed. Andrew Demetriou runs the staff canteen.

The competition flourishes under professional management and by the year 2000 NRL and Union are relegated to second rung status. The AFL becomes a global phenomenon and funding of grass-roots programs around the world sees huge growth in participation, professional leagues and broadcast revenues.

Tony Lockett kicks 200 goals playing for a team that can put the ball on his chest.

By 2000 there are new teams in Brisbane, Darwin, Tokyo and Johannesburg. By 2010 games are regularly played in London, Tokyo and LA attracting large crowds and corporate sponsorship. LeBron James and David Beckham each buy 10% of a club due to their love for the game

In 2020 the Olympics is forced to change their schedule due to a clash between Australia and Japan. The Grand Final is held in Wembley between the Brisbane Lions and Joburg Flogknuckles.

Eddie McGuire still whines about anything that doesn’t go Collingwood’s way but is regularly told to sit down and shut up by CEO Bob Katter.

The game looks in good health.

 

[Cotchins Hair Piece]

Jim Stynes doesn’t run over the mark.

 

[AndyD]

Nope, it only goes to 14 as was set out in 1987 to be forever more in this alternate footy world. The main idea is not to need made up things like Crows and Eagles that virtually ended the healthy followings the traditional clubs in those leagues had. This alternative is to try to get the best of both worlds for the premier and state leagues for the good of the sport overall. Have a high standard AFL but also have state league have a strong following each Sunday. I think it could have worked. It already kind of existed in Victoria before when Sunday football was VFA football and Saturday was the elite stuff of the VFL. Once Bears, Eagles and new clubs come along and the expanded league took over the whole weekend and demanded more and more players from other leagues to create more clubs the other leagues withered away to skeleton leagues they are now. It is sad those SANFL cliubs no longer have those followers each weekend and in WAFL too and the VFA here. The AFL with 18 clubs and the whole weekend has taken too much away that was good of the past.

It is hard to assume the same wouldn’t have happened if established clubs from those leagues joined the AFL instead of the what did happen. It also ignores that you can’t assume the SANFL and WAFL would be as strong going forward after losing two clubs to the VFL. If anything, those leagues would be immediately weakened even further than what they were. By brining in entirely made up entities, the VFL actually gave the state leagues their best chance at surviving by not taking an established club.

Realistically the thing that killed the state leagues was the concept of national broadcasts and the fact that people in Melbourne could watch something live to air from Adelaide/Perth and vice versa. Once that happened, the public was always going to determine which of the available comps were the “premier” competition. And history has shown in world sport that once that determination happens in any market, it’s competitors will suffer and eventually fall off.



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[footyfan1978]

It is hard to assume the same wouldn’t have happened if established clubs from those leagues joined the AFL instead of the what did happen. It also ignores that you can’t assume the SANFL and WAFL would be as strong going forward after losing two clubs to the VFL.

I did not say they would. The idea is to imagine how it would play out. Does not sound like you have at all with your comments as the following shows..

 

[footyfan1978]

Realistically the thing that killed the state leagues was the concept of national broadcasts and the fact that people in Melbourne could watch something live to air from Adelaide/Perth and vice versa.

Hello, wakey wakey. You did not read the idea was for state leagues to be Sunday football. It is why the VFA had a good following when it had Sunday virtually to itself in Melbourne. If that was replicated across the traditional football states those clubs have a great opportunity to continue having a lot of fans that followed them before continue to follow them forever more every Sunday. That was what killed off the VFA when VFL encroached on Sunday's more than just every few weeks when Syfney played. Once Sunday football became every week in the premier league the VFA lost it's niche market time to have people able to follow it and not have it compete with AFL games on all the time.

That is why I included it in this imagined alternate path taken in 1987 by agreement by the AFL and state leagues.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Jim Stynes doesn’t run over the mark.

Wayne Harmes is called out of bounds and it's a boundary throw in.

 

[bluebob1]

One thing about the 'made up teams' is that they drew in new fans who did not attend wafl and sanfl games previously and sure we lost a few sanfl only supporters but it drew in more than it lost. If Norwood and Port came in it would not have attracted fans from Sturt, north adel etc in the same numbers. the players would have gone there because they would have been paid more to play in the AFL but it would not have drawn in as many fans.

 

[The Warlord]

Amazing we make it into this hypothetical world.

 

[Carringbush2010]

These thread are lol.

The op has one major flaw, it loses the Hawthorn fan base because of relocation (admittedly not the biggest at the time - still).

Also pulling big draw cards out of the WAFL and SANFL at the time and reducing clubs to 6 in a league is far from ideal.

One clear way to do this from an equity perspective was to actually create a national league with the drawcard clubs from each of the big 3 leagues at the time and add a drawcard Tas team and then franchise a Fitzroy > Brisbane, Sth Melb > Sydney.

The only problem with this is that you'll have a BIG collective of fan base across the 3 big leagues of the teams disregarded and you end up with split fan bases. With what we have now just about everybody watches the AFL.

I honestly don't think this could have been done any other way.