Amazing teams that could have been...

[Dave]

Carlton weren't as good in '99 and you know it. If you want to talk about adjoining years then about about '01 when we beat you twice, and you threw the Round 22 game because you were too chickenshit to face us in a QF?

As I said already, the Round 20 game was a good indicator - the teams were practically neck and neck in a finals atmosphere game yet Carlton could not keep up because they had 2 down on the bench in the final quarter. Things may have been different if the injuries didn't happen.

You can say it til' the cows come home, doesn't make it any less incorrect. Carlton not keeping up had nothing to do with injuries, interchange rotations in 2000 were far lower than today and had far less impact on the game. That game was, like the prelim, an indication that Carlton could keep up for a while but weren't good enough to match it for 120 minutes.

You are lying if you are going to claim to not be the least nervous if Carlton were fielding a fit team for the GF.

Wasn't the slightest bit worried. Faced and defeated a fit Carlton earlier in the year, and it's not like facing Carlton in a GF held any great fear for many of that team.

They were much better than Melbourne for most of the year. Carlton were the only team that year anywhere near capable of stopping Essendon in the big dance. Someone mentioned earlier than in a 49 game stretch, you guys only lost 6 games. In 3 of those games, it was Carlton who beat you.

Yes, those matches in 2001 had significant relevance to what occurred a year earlier.

Do you know how hard it is to win a game of football with two men down? Especially against quality opposition?

In 2000 it was nowhere near the issue it is now, bench rotations were significantly lower. Carlton lost that night because they weren't good enough.

At least you had all your bench rotations, so no, it doesn't cancel anything out.

So the R20 game was a good indication of what a fully fit a Carlton side would have done, but Essendon missing their best player that year and having their second best player injured is irrelevant. Dig up son, dig up.

 

[Topkent]

just before the ox did his first knee we would have had a forward line containing Neitz Jackovich Lyon and Schwartz, many say Schwartz was as good as carey before his first knee. Then ox did his knee and Jacko fell off a cliff. Team makes 2 prelims but can't get over the line.

We beat the premiers Adelaide in 98 then somehow draw north in the prelim and get done. Crows win the flag from 5th. Stupid mcyntyre system

 

[GastevsBeard]

St Kilda 2009-2010 - the best team I have seen to fall short of a flag

 

[Waca Jr]

Tigs of 95

 

[iluvparis]

And to put some more colour on the winning streak, eight of those wins were against the eight teams that missed finals.

To be fair - if you have a 13 team win streak in a 16 team competition you'd expect more than half to be against bottom 8 teams.

Squiggle (Final Siren ) - which is unbiased - suggests that in any other year Carlton of 2000 would have been streets ahead of the pack and prohibitive premiership favourites.

 

[NonPhixion]

Collingwood 2011

 

[boncer34]

The Round 20 game was a great gauge, at the time both teams were in top form and it was neck and neck until Carlton was down two on the bench, including Kouta. It was only in the final quarter that you kicked away because we didn't have the legs. You of all people should know how much of an impact a fit, healthy Kouta would've had in that game and especially in the finals, where he plays some of his best games.

And yet with a fully fit Kouta we spanked you in round 5.

Congrats on getting close at the time of the year we were getting tight as the "undefeated season" fanfare was building.

Thankfully we dropped a game to the Dogs, released the pressure and went on our merry way through the finals.

 

[Dave]

Still cannot recall exactly why it was only 20 rounds. If the World Cup was at MCG when Pakistan beat England I suspect the footy season started two weeks later is my best guess. Was an incredible season in so many ways. Just listened to podcast of 1993 where Robert Shaw speaks of Fitzroy season. Absolute amazing stuff to listen to. At one point the coaches phone line at the G for Essendon he could hear on his own phone and he was countering every move Sheedy would make as knew every time what Sheedy told runner. He did not let on to Sheedy until later in second quarter he heard every world earlier..lol

Episode 3 - Fitzroy: Once more with feeling
https://omny.fm/shows/the-greatest-season-that-was-93/episode-3-fitzroy

It wasn't the world cup, that was a year earlier. There was some pretty major grounds works done between the '92 and '93 seasons at the MCG which may have been the cause of the shortened season.

 

[Thrawn]

Silly little emojis aren't an argument, Dave.

You can say it til' the cows come home, doesn't make it any less incorrect. Carlton not keeping up had nothing to do with injuries, interchange rotations in 2000 were far lower than today and had far less impact on the game. That game was, like the prelim, an indication that Carlton could keep up for a while but weren't good enough to match it for 120 minutes

Haha. Got the numbers to back that up? How can you even quantify its impact that way? It makes no sense. That's still two less players to rotate through which is something that's necessary in a frenzied, finals-like game. Eighteen years ago fitness levels aren't as they are now, so it'd arguably have a greater impact. You're kidding yourself if you're saying being two men down has no impact on a game. I'm sure you would've loved that against Brissy in '01, might have made the difference between winning and losing. Especially if said two players were gamebreakers.

Carlton were in no condition to compete against Essendon in the PF, they were practically limping at that point. Injuries at the pointy end of the season ruined what could have been a great GF between the two top teams in the competition. Melbourne? Don't make me laugh.

Wasn't the slightest bit worried. Faced and defeated a fit Carlton earlier in the year, and it's not like facing Carlton in a GF held any great fear for many of that team

Lol, sure mate. Essendon whalloped Carlton twice in '99 in the H&A season, doesn't mean crap in the big dance. Just ask Geelong.

Yes, those matches in 2001 had significant relevance to what occurred a year earlier

If you can mention '99, I can mention '01.

In 2000 it was nowhere near the issue it is now, bench rotations were significantly lower. Carlton lost that night because they weren't good enough.

Fitness levels weren't as high back then as they were now, so stop trying to pretend that a lack of two players to rotate wouldn't have had any impact. Today it does, in the 90s and early 00s it did. You can try and deny it all you like, but that's a fact.

So the R20 game was a good indication of what a fully fit a Carlton side would have done, but Essendon missing their best player that year and having their second best player injured is irrelevant. Dig up son, dig up.

Except Carlton weren't fully fit. Having the best player in the competition and a classy wingman breaking down mid-game is going to have much more of an impact than missing any of two players who you have the luxury of replacing before the match even begins! You still have two bodies on the field to rotate through, the idea that not having these has no impact on running out a high pressure, finals-like game is completely ludicrous. Your "don"ial is so endearing.

 

[Thrawn]

And yet with a fully fit Kouta we spanked you in round 5.

Congrats on getting close at the time of the year we were getting tight as the "undefeated season" fanfare was building.

Thankfully we dropped a game to the Dogs, released the pressure and went on our merry way through the finals.

Pity the rest of the team was playing like crap (coming off two losses including a 70+ point thrashing against Collingwood) at the time. Not really an accurate game to use. After that Essendon game Carlton won 13 in a row (that time period they had an higher average winning margin than Essendon) before losing by 3 points to the Doggies, which is why the Round 20 game holds more weight. Regardless, Geelong defeated Hawthorn in the 2008 H&A season but that didn't mean squat come GF day.

 

[boncer34]

Pity the rest of the team was playing like crap (coming off two losses including a 70+ point thrashing against Collingwood) at the time. Not really an accurate game to use. After that Essendon game Carlton won 13 in a row (that time period they had an higher average winning margin than Essendon) before losing by 3 points to the Doggies, which is why the Round 20 game holds more weight. Regardless, Geelong defeated Hawthorn in the 2008 H&A season but that didn't mean squat come GF day.

Oh ok Thrawny.

The one where all Carltons stars were fit and Kouta had a day out is totally irrelevant. Its the other one that is the only one that holds weight.

I love you

 

[Thrawn]

Oh ok Thrawny.

The one where all Carltons stars were fit and Kouta had a day out is totally irrelevant. Its the other one that is the only one that holds weight.

I love you

The word "form" seems to be a foreign concept to you.

Geelong beat Hawthorn in the H&A season in 2008. Can you tell me what relevance that had to the GF result? Cheers mate.

You can post all the dumb smileys you want. This is a thread of hypotheticals, my point at the end is that Carlton were the only team capable of beating Essendon in 2000 in the GF. Not Melbourne. Certainly not North.

 

[boncer34]

The word "form" seems to be a foreign concept to you.

Says the guy lauding a loss, yes that's right a loss, to a team that was tightening up due to the undefeated season nonsense.

Once that pressure was released we danced through finals.

 

[PowerForGood]

What ifs.... argh.

Screwup #1. 2001 Port Adelaide finish 4th after winning 6 straight heading into finals. Lead Brisbane in Brisbane at half time before losing, then lose at home to the Hawks after leading by 3 goals at 3QT.

Screwup #2. 2002 Port Adelaide minor premier after winning 14 of 15 heading into finals. Choke to Collingwood at home first final, recover with a win over Essendon again to a PF but lose to Brisbane in Brisbane again.

Screwup #3. 2003 Port Adelaide minor premier again after winning 14 of 15 heading into finals again. Choke to Sydney at home first final again, recover with a win over Essendon again to a PF but lose to Collingwood in Melbourne.

Finally 2004 after winning 12 of 14 heading into finals, get the flag.

What coulda been but ultimately only themselves to blame.

 

[Dave]

Silly little emojis aren't an argument, Dave.

They're what your statement deserved.

In Rd 22 2001 Richmond had to win to make the top 4. We finished top no matter the result. They won because they had more to play for. Given we flogged them the next week and they then went on to beat you I'm quite confident had your mob finished fourth we'd have dispensed of you with similar ease. I'm also comfortable that it had no bearing on what might have happened a year earlier.

Haha.

Compelling argument.

Got the numbers to back that up? How can you even quantify its impact that way?

No, as the AFL didn't collect them back then, but there are numerous articles referencing 2005/2006 as the period when rotations really ramped up. I also rely on this funny thing called a memory. I know rotations were far smaller in 2000 because I went to almost every game and watched a lot on tv. Don't believe me?
Zero shits given.

How can I quantify it? Easily, it's what the experts in the industry, ie players and coaches, have said is the impact of losing players in game today, ie the impact it has on your ability to rotate and keep players fresh.

It makes no sense.

Only to someone who thinks one teams injured personnel are relevant but another's aren't.

That's still two less players to rotate through which is something that's necessary in a frenzied, finals-like game.

Except rotations weren't at anywhere near the level they are today. Hird was also injured in the match, impacting our rotations and Fletcher missed it. Both were fit for finals.

Eighteen years ago fitness levels aren't as they are now, so it'd arguably have a greater impact. You're kidding yourself if you're saying being two men down has no impact on a game. I'm sure you would've loved that against Brissy in '01, might have made the difference between winning and losing. Especially if said two players were gamebreakers.

Wouldn't have mattered. We took too many injured players into that game.

Essendon whalloped Carlton twice in '99 in the H&A season, doesn't mean crap in the big dance.

Essendon were also without players in the '99 final, something your lot conveniently forget.

If you can mention '99, I can mention '01.

You brought them both up. They're both irrelevant.

Fitness levels weren't as high back then as they were now, so stop trying to pretend that a lack of two players to rotate wouldn't have had any impact. Today it does, in the 90s and early 00s it did. You can try and deny it all you like, but that's a fact.

You can state it all you like, doesn't make it a fact. If you want to be pedantic about, I shouldn't have said no impact, I should have said minimal impact. You also conveniently ignore Fletcher's absence and Hird's injury (both fit for finals) when assuming that Carlton's injured players would have improved their performance had they played but Essendon's would not have changed.

Except Carlton weren't fully fit. Having the best player in the competition and a classy wingman breaking down mid-game is going to have much more of an impact than missing any of two players who you have the luxury of replacing before the match even begins! You still have two bodies on the field to rotate through, the idea that not having these has no impact on running out a high pressure, finals-like game is completely ludicrous. Your "don"ial is so endearing.

You missed the point, I wasn't saying they were. Your argument appears to be that a depleted Carlton side's performance in R20 shows what they could have done against Essendon in finals had they been fully fit. My point is that you conveniently ignore that Essendon were also not fully fit in that match. The competition's best backman did not play and one of the best midfielders was injured and didn't play again for the H&A season. To suggest, as you have, ("cancels nothing") that they wouldn't have contributed anything is what's ludicrous.

The word "form" seems to be a foreign concept to you.

Geelong beat Hawthorn in the H&A season in 2008. Can you tell me what relevance that had to the GF result? Cheers mate.

You can post all the dumb smileys you want. This is a thread of hypotheticals, my point at the end is that Carlton were the only team capable of beating Essendon in 2000 in the GF. Not Melbourne. Certainly not North.

The word "reality" seems to be a foreign concept to you. We know that Essendon beat Carlton in the finals in 2000, so there's nothing to be hypothetical about, your point has no basis in reality. You can bang on about injuries until the cows come home. We had them too, but as in '99 they don't seem to count, only Carlton's do. Dig up.

 

[Dave]

Says the guy lauding a loss, yes that's right a loss, to a team that was tightening up due to the undefeated season nonsense.

Once that pressure was released we danced through finals.

Carlton had injuries. No one else did.

 

[DapperJong]

Now I understand why the ASADA thing is considered a Carlton victory.

 

[boncer34]

Now I understand why the ASADA thing is considered a Carlton victory.

I think being the only team to lose twice to the top ups has made some people a little unhinged.

 

[Back One Out]

1983 was one that got away from Fitzroy.

A dubious free kick against Michael Nettlefold for deliberate out of bounds resulted in a four point loss to eventual Premiers Hawthorn in the Qualifying Final turned into a straight sets exit via Essendon in the First Semi Final. Whereas had the Lions been winners in that nailbiter against Hawthorn they would have gone into a Second Semi Final against top placed North Melbourne. Fitzroy had thumped North by 45 points in Round 2, and then humiliated them by 150 points in Round 13 and they were all that stood in the way of a Fitzroy Grand Final that would have been its first since 1944.

I agree with you that '83 was Fitzroy's best chance of winning a flag. That was a good team and they had a great year before exiting the finals in straight sets.

But allow me to make two corrections:

1) there was nothing "dubious" about the deliberate out of bounds free kick paid against Nettlefold. He grabbed the ball midway between the point post and goal post and went straight for the boundary line under no physical pressure from the Hawk forwards. He took possession and just dove straight over the boundary line from 2-3 metres away. The crowd went up and the umpire agreed. Deliberate. Correct call by Glenn James. A weak, incompetent umpire would've missed it. Glenn James was neither.

2) the free kick did not "result in a four point loss". It happened at the 11 minute mark of the 4th quarter. [Watch it at 11:15 of the clip below]. Michael Tuck's goal made the score 17.10 (102) to 15.9 (99). They played for another 15-20 minutes... Fitzroy took the lead! Hawthorn kicked another 2.3 and the Roys kicked another 4 straight. Final score: Haw 19.13 (127) def Fitz 19.9 (123)

Spoiler: 1983 Qualifying Final, 4th quarter

 

[Final Siren]

Tigs of 95

The side that lost two finals by a combined total of 119 points?

 

[Back One Out]

What ifs.... argh.

Screwup #1. 2001 Port Adelaide finish 4th after winning 6 straight heading into finals. Lead Brisbane in Brisbane at half time before losing, then lose at home to the Hawks after leading by 3 goals at 3QT.

Screwup #2. 2002 Port Adelaide minor premier after winning 14 of 15 heading into finals. Choke to Collingwood at home first final, recover with a win over Essendon again to a PF but lose to Brisbane in Brisbane again.

Screwup #3. 2003 Port Adelaide minor premier again after winning 14 of 15 heading into finals again. Choke to Sydney at home first final again, recover with a win over Essendon again to a PF but lose to Collingwood in Melbourne.

Finally 2004 after winning 12 of 14 heading into finals, get the flag.

What coulda been but ultimately only themselves to blame.

Port actually finished 3rd in 2001 behind Ess and Bris. They lost their home semi final to the 6th-placed Hawks. That was a bigger choke than their subsequent finals losses to the 4th-placed Pies and Swans in 2002 and 2003.

1. Ess 17-5, 134.5
2. Bris 17-5, 127.6
3. Port 16-6, 128.9
4. Rich 15-7, 107.8
5. Carl 14-8, 128.6
6. Haw 13-9, 105.3

The Hawks choked in the following week's Preliminary Final vs Essendon. After a Goldspink-assisted 4 goal 1st term, the Bombers were running on empty. They had key players carrying injury niggles and were in strife. They were there for the taking, but the Hawks just weren't good enough. Port would've beaten the Dons, I reckon. If not for the choking, it probably should've been Port vs Brisbane Grand Final in 2001.

 

[footyfan1978]

The side that lost two finals by a combined total of 119 points?

yeah, that one...lol

 

[Dirty Bird]

Melbourne 1955-60


That one upset in the 1958 grand final means we look back on history as Collingwood 1927-30 as the measuring stick rather than that great Melbourne tea which was better.

 

[footyfan1978]

It wasn't the world cup, that was a year earlier. There was some pretty major grounds works done between the '92 and '93 seasons at the MCG which may have been the cause of the shortened season.

World Cup indeed was 1992 so that can be discounted. Also turns out was nothing to do with ground works. It was actually a combination the league had an uneven number of 15 teams before Fremantle joined the league and this year of 1993 they also had a state of origin championship planned for first week of June so the season had teams needing byes and a week aside after round 10 for state of origin. Both those things combined the league , in their wisdom settled on 20 games each club only.


Geelong with 8 losses from 20 games and very healthy percentage missed the finals series.

Round 17
Geelong 4.0 9.2 11.6 13.9 87 Sat 24-Jul-1993 2:00 pm Waverley Park 38,166
Collingwood 3.3 4.4 8.6 11.13 79 Geelong won by 8 points

Round 18
North Melbourne 0.2 3.5 7.10 10.12 72 Sat 31-Jul-1993 2:00 pm M.C.G. 34,439
Geelong 6.6 13.8 18.13 25.16 166 Geelong won by 94 points

Round 19
Geelong 6.6 12.11 15.13 22.18 150 Sat 7-Aug-1993 2:08 pm Kardinia Park 25,817
Hawthorn 4.3 5.3 9.7 10.8 68 Geelong won by 82 points

Round 20
Brisbane Bye
Collingwood Bye
Geelong Bye

Round 21
Geelong 5.2 8.2 14.5 19.12 126 Sat 21-Aug-1993 2:00 pm Kardinia Park 32,808
Essendon 2.1 10.6 12.8 14.10 94 Geelong won by 32 points

Round 22
West Coast 4.3 8.7 12.11 14.12 96 Fri 27-Aug-1993 8:38 pm W.A.C.A. 32,121
Geelong 5.2 8.6 11.8 17.14 116 Geelong won by 20 points

1993 Ladder

1 Essendon 20 13 6 1 2333 1959 119.09 54
2 Carlton 20 13 6 1 2315 1968 117.63 54
3 North Melbourne 20 13 7 0 2597 2150 120.79 52
4 Hawthorn 20 13 7 0 2166 1858 116.58 52
5 Adelaide 20 12 8 0 2168 1840 117.83 48
6 West Coast 20 12 8 0 1912 1651 115.81 48

7 Geelong 20 12 8 0 2354 2109 111.62 48
8 Collingwood 20 11 9 0 2086 2060 101.26 44
9 Footscray 20 11 9 0 1978 1997 99.05 44
10 Melbourne 20 10 10 0 2101 1873 112.17 40
11 Fitzroy 20 10 10 0 2001 2011 99.50 40
12 St. Kilda 20 10 10 0 2040 2166 94.18 40
13 Brisbane 20 4 16 0 1886 2504 75.32 16
14 Richmond 20 4 16 0 1753 2480 70.69 16
15 Sydney 20 1 19 0 1837 2901 63.32 4

 

[Final Siren]

World Cup indeed was 1992 so that can be discounted. Also turns out was nothing to do with ground works. It was actually a combination the league had an uneven number of 15 teams before Fremantle joined the league and this year of 1993 they also had a state of origin championship planned for first week of June so the season had teams needing byes and a week aside after round 10 for state of origin. Both those things combined the league , in their wisdom settled on 20 games each club only.


Geelong with 8 losses from 20 games and very healthy percentage missed the finals series.

Round 17
Geelong 4.0 9.2 11.6 13.9 87 Sat 24-Jul-1993 2:00 pm Waverley Park 38,166
Collingwood 3.3 4.4 8.6 11.13 79 Geelong won by 8 points

Round 18
North Melbourne 0.2 3.5 7.10 10.12 72 Sat 31-Jul-1993 2:00 pm M.C.G. 34,439
Geelong 6.6 13.8 18.13 25.16 166 Geelong won by 94 points

Round 19
Geelong 6.6 12.11 15.13 22.18 150 Sat 7-Aug-1993 2:08 pm Kardinia Park 25,817
Hawthorn 4.3 5.3 9.7 10.8 68 Geelong won by 82 points

Round 20
Brisbane Bye
Collingwood Bye
Geelong Bye

Round 21
Geelong 5.2 8.2 14.5 19.12 126 Sat 21-Aug-1993 2:00 pm Kardinia Park 32,808
Essendon 2.1 10.6 12.8 14.10 94 Geelong won by 32 points

Round 22
West Coast 4.3 8.7 12.11 14.12 96 Fri 27-Aug-1993 8:38 pm W.A.C.A. 32,121
Geelong 5.2 8.6 11.8 17.14 116 Geelong won by 20 points

1993 Ladder

1 Essendon 20 13 6 1 2333 1959 119.09 54
2 Carlton 20 13 6 1 2315 1968 117.63 54
3 North Melbourne 20 13 7 0 2597 2150 120.79 52
4 Hawthorn 20 13 7 0 2166 1858 116.58 52
5 Adelaide 20 12 8 0 2168 1840 117.83 48
6 West Coast 20 12 8 0 1912 1651 115.81 48

7 Geelong 20 12 8 0 2354 2109 111.62 48
8 Collingwood 20 11 9 0 2086 2060 101.26 44
9 Footscray 20 11 9 0 1978 1997 99.05 44
10 Melbourne 20 10 10 0 2101 1873 112.17 40
11 Fitzroy 20 10 10 0 2001 2011 99.50 40
12 St. Kilda 20 10 10 0 2040 2166 94.18 40
13 Brisbane 20 4 16 0 1886 2504 75.32 16
14 Richmond 20 4 16 0 1753 2480 70.69 16
15 Sydney 20 1 19 0 1837 2901 63.32 4

1993 is my favourite insane season. Squiggle rated Geelong as the best team in the comp at the end of H&A.