An alternative to the 'National' competition

[freddy mercury]

From the Vic Bias thread I've come to these conclusions:

• There is an advantage to MCG tenants vs non tenants on GF day, or in any HGA
• There is an advantage to non Melbourne teams during the H&A season given they have more HGA.
• The competition is skewed toward market, i:e there's more vic market
• The competition has more participants from vic, be it players, staff (coaches etc.) or media
• Geography is a disadvantage, FIFO etc.
• The WAFC bought licences and in doing so saved certain vic clubs, and certain WAFL clubs from the same (The_Wookie and Roylion would be able to expand on this)
• Those clubs at existential financial threat would've survived anyway because there was and always will be market demand (example Richmond and Collingwood but the clubs would've existed elsewhere or be resurrected anyway - see Fitzroy still exist in the VAFA)
• To make a truly equitable national comp certain clubs would have to dissolve
• To dissolve those clubs would lose 100's of thousands of paying fan base whether by seats or remote.

I would propose we go to what was previous to the VFL expansion:

• We have the state leagues as they were previously, not a lot different for the current state leagues now.
• *Have a playoff of 'champions' of each league at the end of it, the premiers of each comp play off.

OR

• *We have a new National Competition where have new vic expansion clubs and leave the current vic clubs to their own state league.

* I seriously doubt this garner any public support from a vic fan pov.

OR

Non vic fans just vote with their feet and remotes, return their tier 1 comps back to their glory days, would force change.

None the less, ultimately, whichever way one wants to boil it down and dissect it, the majority of the market is in vic, the majority of participants in this game are from vic.

So in short, it's either stay the course to the detriment of non vic fans, or equalize the comp at the detriment of possibly 4 clubs to make it truly national, by doing that we lose 100's of thousands of paying fans - obviously the latter will not happen.

And if the non vics do or would vote with their feet and remotes it would just note what already is - the vic comp, even if there was a separate national comp would garner the most public interest regardless.

Discuss

This is how hawthorn won 3 in a row. Beat 3 sides who probably played no more than 5 games at the G in the same year. I doubt freo played more than 1 game at the g during the home and away season.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Still not sure how getting rid of the 4 smallest and least structurally important clubs is irrational, but going back to state leagues and getting rid half of the 12 biggest clubs, including the biggest club in the country is rational. What was the Bush trying to achieve by starting this thread? Especially when arguing at the same time "it's all about money". 53 is a bit young for dementia.

WC is already in the WAFL, your club is already in the SANFL, so are the crows, Peel is affiliated with Freo.

So yeah there's no excuse for non vic fans 'but it's not our new club in the state league'.

You claim dementia on my part but want to cull clubs and expect those fans to still follow the league as rational.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Is that why the crowd was 39k at Coll v North, but 60k v Port and nearly 66k v the Crows?

Oh here is Papa, you do reply every now and again?

Yeah they do, I am not just talking about crowds I am also talking TV ratings, they just don't care much for you, sorry Papa but that's a fact.

You like calling for the small Vic clubs to be culled, but you are just a small SA club.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The Vic's say we're a bunch of whingers but they're just as mad it's not the VFL anymore.

Mad? The league is in our favour, why would we be mad? Ok I'd probably prefer my club was just in a vfl comp, don't have to listen to the whinging non vics, I'm just pointing out the salt of non vic fans.

Even when I've suggested we could go, in the future, an American conference style model (double up Thursday night and Friday nights, five Saturday games, three Sunday, one Monday night if four day working weeks become the norm), or remain single-tier but expand to a maximum of 24 teams playing once with a top 12 finals system, they aren't happy.

Unhappy? I've replied to this more than once why it's highly unlikely to work, nothing to do with 'unhappy'

It may have started out as an expansion of the VFL but it's evolved beyond that now and will continue to as the game grows in the east and we look for a more complete geographical representation of the league.

As more than half of every participant and $ is from vic, it is not beyond an expanded vfl.

And they can, by refusing to help smaller Vic clubs and leaving it up to them to compete with the bigger Vic clubs for financial stability and success.

But they won't, coz there's 100's of thousands of paying fans they won't wanna lose.

 

[Carringbush2010]

This is how hawthorn won 3 in a row. Beat 3 sides who probably played no more than 5 games at the G in the same year. I doubt freo played more than 1 game at the g during the home and away season.

And how do practically address that, while at the same time maximizes revenue as the AFL want to do?

 

[Coolangatta]

Mad? The league is in our favour, why would we be mad? Ok I'd probably prefer my club was just in a vfl comp, don't have to listen to the whinging non vics, I'm just pointing out the salt of non vic fans.

Unhappy? I've replied to this more than once why it's highly unlikely to work, nothing to do with 'unhappy'

As more than half of every participant and $ is from vic, it is not beyond an expanded vfl.

But they won't, coz there's 100's of thousands of paying fans they won't wanna lose.

Why would they lose them? The clubs aren’t going anywhere, they would just be exposed for what they are which are clubs that can’t support themselves. Yes TV ratings are important but crowds are also important for generating revenue and the Saints, Dogs, Dees, and North don’t deliver good crowds on average.

 

[Coolangatta]

Oh here is Papa, you do reply every now and again?

Yeah they do, I am not just talking about crowds I am also talking TV ratings, they just don't care much for you, sorry Papa but that's a fact.

You like calling for the small Vic clubs to be culled, but you are just a small SA club.

Crowds are important for generating revenue for clubs, it’s not just TV ratings. This is why the Saints etc are more reliant on financial support despite being around forever, cause they don’t bring in the gate money. I’d like to see what the Pies v North TV ratings were compared to v Crows or Port btw.

 

[freddy mercury]

And how do practically address that, while at the same time maximizes revenue as the AFL want to do?

Don't sign 54975 year deals

 

[LoungeLizard]

Crowds are important for generating revenue for clubs, it’s not just TV ratings. This is why the Saints etc are more reliant on financial support despite being around forever, cause they don’t bring in the gate money . I’d like to see what the Pies v North TV ratings were compared to v Crows or Port btw.

I put the tv ratings up in the other thread, they aren't flash.

 

[Coolangatta]

I put the tv ratings up in the other thread, they aren't flash.

Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me, but some clubs that have been around for over a hundred years still aren’t getting good crowds to games even if on field performances are okay so apples and oranges, really. Crowds matter too.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Why would they lose them? The clubs aren’t going anywhere, they would just be exposed for what they are which are clubs that can’t support themselves. Yes TV ratings are important but crowds are also important for generating revenue and the Saints, Dogs, Dees, and North don’t deliver good crowds on average.

There's always going to be clubs that are smaller and generate less, if you expose and let them dissolve or even push for them to dissolve (seems you're alluding that's what you want to 'teach em a lesson') then as a league you're not going to retain those fans. If those 4 clubs dissolve then HQ can kiss goodbye at least half a million paying fans. So they won't.

If they're not going anywhere then the league will redistribute them the funds they need, that is happening now.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Don't sign 54975 year deals

Yeah but they did to maximize revenue, vic govt. made an offer they couldn't refuse.

So I ask again, what do you propose HQ does to stop the non vic whinging?

 

[Coolangatta]

There's always going to be clubs that are smaller and generate less, if you expose and let them dissolve or even push for them to dissolve (seems you're alluding that's what you want to 'teach em a lesson') then as a league you're not going to retain those fans. If those 4 clubs dissolve then HQ can kiss goodbye at least half a million paying fans. So they won't.

If they're not going anywhere then the league will redistribute them the funds they need, that is happening now.

Well it’s no different than people wanting to pull the plug on the Suns and Giants yet they haven’t even been around for 20 years but these ancient VIC clubs have been around forever and still need help.

I get it’s ebbs and flows and all that but for clubs that have so much support you’d think they could do more to help themselves.

Why would you think the clubs would dissolve without help from the AFL? If your answer is no then there’s no problem. If it’s yes then they aren’t that valuable and they’d recoup the money as future Victorian kids would choose from one of the six or seven remaining clubs to follow.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Well it’s no different than people wanting to pull the plug on the Suns and Giants yet they haven’t even been around for 20 years but these ancient VIC clubs have been around forever and still need help.

I get it’s ebbs and flows and all that but for clubs that have so much support you’d think they could do more to help themselves.

Why would you think the clubs would dissolve without help from the AFL? If your answer is no then there’s no problem. If it’s yes then they aren’t that valuable and they’d recoup the money as future Victorian kids would choose from one of the six or seven remaining clubs to follow.

And what would you say if the richer clubs got together and said "enough is enough of this equalisation", every club supports itself or they are out?

Would you like that, or do you think it would be better to keep GWS, GC Brissy,Port, North, St.Kilda etc.?

 

[Carringbush2010]

Well it’s no different than people wanting to pull the plug on the Suns and Giants yet they haven’t even been around for 20 years but these ancient VIC clubs have been around forever and still need help.

I get it’s ebbs and flows and all that but for clubs that have so much support you’d think they could do more to help themselves.

Why would you think the clubs would dissolve without help from the AFL? If your answer is no then there’s no problem. If it’s yes then they aren’t that valuable and they’d recoup the money as future Victorian kids would choose from one of the six or seven remaining clubs to follow.

The suns and giants are new clubs in non footy heartland, and like I said there'll always be smaller clubs, in fact the 4 in discussion have always been the smaller clubs. So what?

But that is irrelevant because HQ will continue to fund them from the product that these small clubs help create. You're the one who replied with 'let em see how they go without funding' not me.

So the narrative is from the likes of Papa G and most non vic fans is 'if HQ didn't bail em out they'd die' well that'd be true if they had no fan base, but they do, yeah smaller than everyone else but that doesn't justify 'yeah kill em off so the comp can be more equitable' because as I said there's at least half a million fans there that would not be there if their clubs weren't there.

It's not hard.

 

[Coolangatta]

And what would you say if the richer clubs got together and said "enough is enough of this equalisation", every club supports itself or they are out?

Would you like that, or do you think it would be better to keep GWS, GC Brissy,Port, North, St.Kilda etc.?

I’m not sure. I think sometimes that all clubs should get baseline funding except for the Giants, Suns, and Tassie since they are a generational investment.

I realise the Lions would be in trouble too but at least I’m consistent. But if the AFL wants a minimum of two teams in QLD we’d probably be okay. That said I understand how distasteful that would be for fans of smaller VIC clubs. Not sure why you included Port, they’d be fine.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I’m not sure. I think sometimes that all clubs should get baseline funding except for the Giants, Suns, and Tassie since they are a generational investment.

I realise the Lions would be in trouble too but at least I’m consistent. But if the AFL wants a minimum of two teams in QLD we’d probably be okay. That said I understand how distasteful that would be for fans. Not sure why you included Port, they’d be fine.

You know when Covid hit and the AFL helped the clubs who asked for help?

Only 8 clubs didn't ask for help, 6 were Vic clubs.

 

[Coolangatta]

The suns and giants are new clubs in non footy heartland, and like I said there'll always be smaller clubs, in fact the 4 in discussion have always been the smaller clubs. So what?

But that is irrelevant because HQ will continue to fund them from the product that these small clubs help create. You're the one who replied with 'let em see how they go without funding' not me.

So the narrative is from the likes of Papa G and most non vic fans is 'if HQ didn't bail em out they'd die' well that'd be true if they had no fan base, but they do, yeah smaller than everyone else but that doesn't justify 'yeah kill em off so the comp can be more equitable' because as I said there's at least half a million fans there that would not be there if their clubs weren't there.

It's not hard.

Fair enough, but if the AFL don't decide to contract, I hope they don't stop expansion either just because "we can't have more than 20 teams" or any of that other crap. There's only one good reason not to expand and that's if there's not a good business case for it.

 

[Coolangatta]

You know when Covid hit and the AFL helped the clubs who asked for help?

Only 8 clubs didn't ask for help, 6 were Vic clubs.

No, I didn't know that. Perhaps I've underestimated the strength of the WA/SA sides then. I know the QLD and NSW sides aren't that strong. I don't have to guess who the 6 Vic clubs were.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Fair enough, but if the AFL don't decide to contract, I hope they don't stop expansion either just because "we can't have more than 20 teams" or any of that other crap. There's only one good reason not to expand and that's if there's not a good business case for it.

And at the moment there isn't and not likely to be anytime soon, again that's not what the thread is about.

 

[Coolangatta]

And at the moment there isn't and not likely to be anytime soon, again that's not what the thread is about.

Yes I know, the thread is about whether we should return to the VFL days or not, and my answer is no.

As for current actions? Clubs should play games at the home ground of their choice unless they choose to sell them elsewhere, but it sounds to me like the Marvel contract prevents that from happening with a few games.

And I don't know what the AFL's views are on a maximum number of clubs but keep an open mind about going beyond 20 clubs in the future, but again that's thinking too far ahead.

As for the MCG contract, I wouldn't extend it, that's a current course of action that can be taken, but there's obviously not going to be a case of the Vic government giving it up; I don't think any amount of money could buy out the contract and rip it up in place of a new one.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yes I know, the thread is about whether we should return to the VFL days or not, and my answer is no.

As for current actions? Clubs should play games at the home ground of their choice unless they choose to sell them elsewhere, but it sounds to me like the Marvel contract prevents that from happening with a few games.

And I don't know what the AFL's views are on a maximum number of clubs but keep an open mind about going beyond 20 clubs in the future, but again that's thinking too far ahead.

As for the MCG contract, I wouldn't extend it, that's a current course of action that can be taken, but there's obviously not going to be a case of the Vic government giving it up; I don't think any amount of money could buy out the contract and rip it up in place of a new one.

Well then non vic fans can just accept what is or not, entirely up to them.

 

[Coolangatta]

Well then non vic fans can just accept what is or not, entirely up to them.

I accept it, but it goes both ways, as if the AFL do decide to keep expanding after Tasmania and the 20th side, they might choose to contract before they do it, but we'll see. For now, I can enjoy the game for what it is, and if we or Port get pumped in the GF you won't hear me complaining about how it shouldn't be at the MCG every year because it's gonna be until 2059 whether I like it or not, and we wouldn't necessarily win it at the Gabba or wherever either. Although, the Gabba is a fortress again. Wouldn't shock me if the Pies beat Port at AO.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I accept it, but it goes both ways, as if the AFL do decide to keep expanding after Tasmania and the 20th side, they might choose to contract before they do it, but we'll see. For now, I can enjoy the game for what it is, and if we or Port get pumped in the GF you won't hear me complaining about how it shouldn't be at the MCG every year because it's gonna be until 2059 whether I like it or not, and we wouldn't necessarily win it at the Gabba or wherever either. Although, the Gabba is a fortress again. Wouldn't shock me if the Pies beat Port at AO.

Yes it's clear you accept it, but many don't.

If they don't they have choices, if they do like you, then carry on.

 

[Tigerlaird]

I think the state leagues will never return to their glory days.

Best chance for a WAFL or SANFL club to survive in the future would be for the VFL to expand into a National Second Division, and for certain clubs from the state league to join that league permanently.