An outsiders view of the AFL and how to fix it

JohnZ

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Mar 10, 2016
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34 game season (17x2) or 22 game season with 2 divisions of 12 teams. Gets rid of the FIXture and ensures a fair, balanced DRAW
 

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RichLeMonde

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Sep 26, 2019
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I understand what you are saying vis a vis the market distortion - have you another suggestion for expanding into non - heartland states?
I'm not convinced that expansion should be as high a priority as the AFL makes out. Expansion is premised on generating more revenue, and protecting existing revenue by out-competing other codes. To me the main benefit of that is that it gives financially weaker traditional clubs a better chance of surviving. If the AFL remained smaller, with less money and therefore slightly less professionalism, I don't actually think what's best about the game would be lost. But, if they need to expand, then the integrity of the game must be protected at all costs. They should give new teams every chance to succeed at start-up, but the AFL can't have an ongoing hand in those clubs, or set up conditions that distort the chances for on-field success. GWS had such a leg-up initially that they could have kept trading for top draft picks for years. In a way, free agency has actually mitigated against that somewhat. But it seems to me that the Gold Coast, full of retirees not families with young kids, doesn't want an AFL team, and players don't want to be there. If that becomes really clear, I think the AFL should admit its failure and get rid of them. They'd be far better off pumping the money and resources into Tassie.
 

kranky al

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I'm not convinced that expansion should be as high a priority as the AFL makes out. Expansion is premised on generating more revenue, and protecting existing revenue by out-competing other codes. To me the main benefit of that is that it gives financially weaker traditional clubs a better chance of surviving. If the AFL remained smaller, with less money and therefore slightly less professionalism, I don't actually think what's best about the game would be lost. But, if they need to expand, then the integrity of the game must be protected at all costs. They should give new teams every chance to succeed at start-up, but the AFL can't have an ongoing hand in those clubs, or set up conditions that distort the chances for on-field success. GWS had such a leg-up initially that they could have kept trading for top draft picks for years. In a way, free agency has actually mitigated against that somewhat. But it seems to me that the Gold Coast, full of retirees not families with young kids, doesn't want an AFL team, and players don't want to be there. If that becomes really clear, I think the AFL should admit its failure and get rid of them. They'd be far better off pumping the money and resources into Tassie.
i agree with your last - its hard to ever see gc being viable.

But as for gws - the blueprint is there in sydney - i think theres defo room for two clubs in sydney.

I worry about our sport not from the rugbys - but from the point of view of soccer.

Long term the threat will always be soccer. As it is we have soccer mums refusing to let their kids play the “harder codes”

Soccer now has more kids playing it than afl - these kids will be 18+ one day - if australia were to win a world cup i can see a momentum shift happening.

The bigger we are across the nation the less this momentum shift will be hopefully.

You see the freak athletes in sports and as they were growing up they played 3-4 sports and excelled at all - often you see them come to afl - but if they start going to a much invigorated soccer (as a draftees wage is millions not hundreds of thousands) you will start to see our sport become less spectacular - and less watchable as a result.

Now if herding this off means gws win a few grannies - i can survive that - i survived collingwood winning a granny - i reckon if i really grit my teeth i can survive essendon winning a granny - gws should be pretty easy comparatively!!!
 

RichLeMonde

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i agree with your last - its hard to ever see gc being viable.

But as for gws - the blueprint is there in sydney - i think theres defo room for two clubs in sydney.

I worry about our sport not from the rugbys - but from the point of view of soccer.

Long term the threat will always be soccer. As it is we have soccer mums refusing to let their kids play the “harder codes”

Soccer now has more kids playing it than afl - these kids will be 18+ one day - if australia were to win a world cup i can see a momentum shift happening.

The bigger we are across the nation the less this momentum shift will be hopefully.

You see the freak athletes in sports and as they were growing up they played 3-4 sports and excelled at all - often you see them come to afl - but if they start going to a much invigorated soccer (as a draftees wage is millions not hundreds of thousands) you will start to see our sport become less spectacular - and less watchable as a result.

Now if herding this off means gws win a few grannies - i can survive that - i survived collingwood winning a granny - i reckon if i really grit my teeth i can survive essendon winning a granny - gws should be pretty easy comparatively!!!
Yeah it's a fair point. We're seeing a lot of elite basketballers come to footy for that exact reason. The problem with the expansionist logic is that it's potentially without limit. We might put up with a few GWS premierships, but then will we need to do the same for NZ, or China, etc. I think the integrity of the on-field stuff (which of course is shaped by off-field stuff) needs to be protected at all costs.
 

catstorm

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Dec 9, 2011
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I think the AFL should stop giving out concessions to clubs like gold coast. Clubs like Saints never get concessions when they are having bad times because they are one of the biggest clubs in the league... its bullshit
You do know Nick Riewoldt was a priority pick right, and than a year later you got another priority pick for Luke Ball.

So when you say the AFL never gave St Kilda anything I don't know what the fu** you're talking about.
 

kranky al

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Yeah it's a fair point. We're seeing a lot of elite basketballers come to footy for that exact reason. The problem with the expansionist logic is that it's potentially without limit. We might put up with a few GWS premierships, but then will we need to do the same for NZ, or China, etc. I think the integrity of the on-field stuff (which of course is shaped by off-field stuff) needs to be protected at all costs.
As a travelling club the thought of nz brings me out in hives.

Send the (b)eagles every year.....

I hope we dont try to go international
 

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jonnymagic

Draftee
Aug 17, 2009
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OP certainly took on the SA bitterness very quickly.

Because it's just Vic clubs that lure players home... :rolleyes:
I wouldn't say I'm bitter....my points are much more to do with the overall running of the AFL than where I'm from. I haven't grown up here so don't have that burning passion of state vs state, rather I'm commenting on the competition itself. Overall you'd say the AFL is a competition that is fair and equal for every team? Take all things away and please tell me you don't think it's ok for people who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to complain of 'homesickness' and ask for a trade to somewhere they can fly to in 45mins or drive to in 8hrs? I suggested some ideas to reduce this as I think it's an all too easy excuse. I get that more players come from Victoria and as such there's more of them asking to go home but think the whole idea of 'nominating' where you want to go silly!! Jack Gunston arrived in Adelaide and asked when the next flight home was....why play a sport that involves you getting drafted anywhere if you can't bear to be away from your home.....should just play VFL??
 

Elton Johns Wig

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I wouldn't say I'm bitter....my points are much more to do with the overall running of the AFL than where I'm from. I haven't grown up here so don't have that burning passion of state vs state, rather I'm commenting on the competition itself. Overall you'd say the AFL is a competition that is fair and equal for every team? Take all things away and please tell me you don't think it's ok for people who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to complain of 'homesickness' and ask for a trade to somewhere they can fly to in 45mins or drive to in 8hrs? I suggested some ideas to reduce this as I think it's an all too easy excuse. I get that more players come from Victoria and as such there's more of them asking to go home but think the whole idea of 'nominating' where you want to go silly!! Jack Gunston arrived in Adelaide and asked when the next flight home was....why play a sport that involves you getting drafted anywhere if you can't bear to be away from your home.....should just play VFL??
I just think you worded it badly (ie from an SA perspective)

Geelong just lost a bloke that was top 3 in the Brownlow after only 2 yrs!!

I agree with a lot of your points. I also think interstate sides get advantages not available to every team that offset the travel, but that horse has been flogged enough and we'll leave that to it's thread.

But 4yrs I think too long for everyone. Maybe 4 yrs (min) for a 1st rounder, 3 for a second, 2 for ensuing rounds. As someone else pointed out, the churn on lower picks makes a 4yr contract too big an ask.

Also, not in favour of raising the draft age. Plenty play in their first year. Imagine not seeing Walsh, Rozee, Stack, Butters, Smith etc etc. The first year players go ok.
 

jonnymagic

Draftee
Aug 17, 2009
4
7
Adelaide
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Adelaide
Don't want to be rude and it's nice to welcome an international fan, but these comments are pretty far from the mark.

There's no evidence of Vic teams in particular benefiting from raiding interstate clubs. What is a problem is that the AFL administrates the game in a particular way, based on the Harvard Business School MBA model, where the business must always grow, always capture new markets, even though the primary reason for the existence of the AFL should not actually be to generate revenue. Non-traditional aussie rules markets - in Sydney, Brisbane, and GC - have accordingly been given certain advantages that translate to better likelihood of onfield success, to maintain the interest of these markets. People laud the Bloods culture at Sydney and point to their incredible run of finals appearances, but much of this was built on the 'cost of living allowance', which was an excuse for a higher salary cap. After Sydney landed Tippet and Buddy in consecutive years, AFL Commissioner Michael Fitzpatrick admitted as much. GWS were introduced purely to make the AFL money. There is a shocking conflict of interest for the AFL between impartiality, on one hand, and an active desire to see GWS succeed on the other. Gil needs to sign off if Leon Cameron was to be fired. The active intervention of the AFL in creating and managing GWS is disgraceful. The AFL knows that there are rusted on fans of St Kilda, North Melbourne etc, who basically will put up with an unfair comp since they will always follow their team and the footy generally. Compared to US sports, it's not free market principles that are corrupting AFL - rather the AFL runs itself as a business and so distorts the market conditions in a particular way in order to further its business interests. But it's factually wrong to say that Melbourne based teams are the chief beneficiaries of this.
This makes a lot of sense and I agree about it being run as a business not as a sporting comp. I think it's possible to do both but the expansion has certainly been a problem.

I don't have the time to do the research but I'd bet if you looked at the top 20 guys traded from GWS or Gold Coast in the last 5 years, at least 15 of them headed to Victoria.

I think someone did the numbers and found that approx 50% of players are from Melbourne. Maybe I don't word it properly but I honestly but what I'm trying to say is that when a big fish leaves from any club, every other club should have a shot at getting them but I just don't think this is the case. Not Melbournes fault, I love Melbourne but a precedent is certainly there where there's more chance of a player heading home to Melbourne than to another interstate club. In the NFL when a guy moves I have no idea where he was born as it doesn't come into it.
 

jonnymagic

Draftee
Aug 17, 2009
4
7
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
I just think you worded it badly (ie from an SA perspective)

Geelong just lost a bloke that was top 3 in the Brownlow after only 2 yrs!!

I agree with a lot of your points. I also think interstate sides get advantages not available to every team that offset the travel, but that horse has been flogged enough and we'll leave that to it's thread.

But 4yrs I think too long for everyone. Maybe 4 yrs (min) for a 1st rounder, 3 for a second, 2 for ensuing rounds. As someone else pointed out, the churn on lower picks makes a 4yr contract too big an ask.

Also, not in favour of raising the draft age. Plenty play in their first year. Imagine not seeing Walsh, Rozee, Stack, Butters, Smith etc etc. The first year players go ok.
I like the idea of 4 for a 1st rounder, 3 for 2nd etc! It's typically the talent at the top end that hurts to lose so early.

I'm so on board with Kelly being part of the problem regarding moving after 2 years!

I don't think the young guys aren't good enough, just that they should experience a bit of life first before signing a contract to play away from home.
 

Nutsngum

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Mar 14, 2013
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I am not so sure on the other ones but I actually feel raising the draft age to 20 would have a very positive effect on football as a whole. It would bolster the state leagues significantly, give a much better indication of the abilities of players and set them up much better for when they are actually drafted.
 

werdna78

Team Captain
Sep 29, 2009
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IMO the AFL exploits the loyalty of fans of clubs like St Kilda, North etc, since they are true fans and stick through the tough years, whereas they will give massive handouts to teams from 'non-traditional markets'.
St Kilda have received $170 million from the AFL since 2005 averaging $12 million a year.
Dogs: $172 million
Kangaroos: $161 million

Fairly substantial hand-outs just to survive.
 

werdna78

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I am familiar with the gold coast and suggest that the Southport Sharks would have a much better chance of success.
When the AFL introduces new teams, it seems to stay clear of already established clubs. I.E.: West Coast, Adelaide, Fremantle, Brisbane, GWS and Gold Coast. The only "expansion club" with prior history is Port Adelaide.

I agree South Port should be been aligned, but the AFL likes to have control of these teams without been tied to established clubs.
 

werdna78

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I wouldn't say I'm bitter....my points are much more to do with the overall running of the AFL than where I'm from. I haven't grown up here so don't have that burning passion of state vs state, rather I'm commenting on the competition itself. Overall you'd say the AFL is a competition that is fair and equal for every team? Take all things away and please tell me you don't think it's ok for people who are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to complain of 'homesickness' and ask for a trade to somewhere they can fly to in 45mins or drive to in 8hrs? I suggested some ideas to reduce this as I think it's an all too easy excuse. I get that more players come from Victoria and as such there's more of them asking to go home but think the whole idea of 'nominating' where you want to go silly!! Jack Gunston arrived in Adelaide and asked when the next flight home was....why play a sport that involves you getting drafted anywhere if you can't bear to be away from your home.....should just play VFL??
I agree the AFL system is compromised and not fair, not many things in life are.

Most leagues overseas are also compromised in some way or the other. The big teams always seem to get the best players, New York Yankees for example.

Players want to play for big clubs in front of big crowds (Real Madrid/Barcelona). Big clubs have more money, more investment are better run.

It's probably never going to be completely fair or equitable.
 

werdna78

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Did you have the stats handy for all handouts given, per club?
Here are all them. Got them from the AFL financial reports. These are the totals since 2005.

Western B 172.1
St Kilda 170.7
Nth Melbourne 161.1
Brisbane 159.3
Melbourne 154.4
Carlton 142.9
Port 141.1
Sydney 140.7
Richmond 139.9
Essendon 138.2
Collingwood 138.1
Hawthorn 133.0
Geelong 131.3
Freo 122.7
Adelaide 122.3
West Coast 121.8
GWS 121.0
Gold Coast 114.6
 

AuntyBlindEye

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Jul 19, 2019
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Cheers mate, I wouldn't have known where to find them.

Interesting, expected Richmond to be higher. Also expected GC and GWS to be higher.
Here are all them. Got them from the AFL financial reports. These are the totals since 2005.

Western B 172.1
St Kilda 170.7
Nth Melbourne 161.1
Brisbane 159.3
Melbourne 154.4
Carlton 142.9
Port 141.1
Sydney 140.7
Richmond 139.9
Essendon 138.2
Collingwood 138.1
Hawthorn 133.0
Geelong 131.3
Freo 122.7
Adelaide 122.3
West Coast 121.8
GWS 121.0
Gold Coast 114.6
 

werdna78

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Cheers mate, I wouldn't have known where to find them.

Interesting, expected Richmond to be higher. Also expected GC and GWS to be higher.
Averages millions per year.

GWS 17.3
Gold Coast 16.4
Western B 12.3
St Kilda 12.2
Nth Melbourne 11.5
Brisbane 11.4
Melbourne 11.0
Carlton 10.2
Port 10.1
Sydney 10.1
Richmond 10.0
Essendon 9.9
Collingwood 9.9
Hawthorn 9.5
Geelong 9.4
Freo 8.8
Adelaide 8.7
West Coast 8.7

Richmond have a bigger supporter base and make more money from merchandise and ticket sales. Also being a tenant of the MCG didn't suck as much money as Marvel used to for its tenant clubs.
 

Breretonisahood

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Feb 26, 2013
119
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I am familiar with the gold coast and suggest that the Southport Sharks would have a much better chance of success.
Was considered but problem is Southport have been a dominant and often hated AFLQ club for years. Sort of the Collingwood of QLD. Making the Sharks an AFL club may have alienated rival supporters of PBC, Broadbeach, Labrador, Surfers etc. Unfortunately, despite the Gold Coast having the strongest and richest local clubs in QLD, that support has not transferred to the Suns.
 

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